The statue of liberty and its symbolic use in movies

[Paladin Solo]

Well, it is the statue of LIBERTY, you know. It basically symbolizes what America lacks.

 

[Big T]

Well, it is the statue of LIBERTY, you know. It basically symbolizes what America lacks.

That's the point where you're supposed to defend your country.
Y'know, try to prove him wrong.

Dictionary.com[/url]]lib·er·ty
n. pl. lib·er·ties

1. a.The condition of being free from restriction or control.
b.The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
c.The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.

2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

4.a. A breach or overstepping of propriety or social convention. Often used in the plural.
b. A statement, attitude, or action not warranted by conditions or actualities: a historical novel that takes liberties with chronology.
c. An unwarranted risk; a chance: took foolish liberties on the ski slopes.

5. A period, usually short, during which a sailor is authorized to go ashore.

Assuming we're talking about the first definition (1a,b,c), pretty much all of that could be debated as lacking in American society.


(Not meant as flamebait, I was just annoyed at PS's response to that)

 

[Paladin Solo]

The hell if I care if you were annoyed. I was annoyed as well...so do something about it. I was annoyed by your reply, so I just wanted to post that? Annoyed? There is no use in the constant same arguments over and over...if people won't listen to your defence, isn't much use in arguing. And you're a blind idiot if you see no freedoms and liberties in this country. I'm guessing you're another regular nationalist who likes nothing more than to constantly put down this country, sometimes with flawed arguments. I could say tons about other countries, but frankly, I don't give a damn. I am happy living here, and don't find the constant need to compare other countries to mine, and say we're better, or you suck. Annoyed? I know I am.

 

[Wooz]

Of course you're happy to live in a free country, and rightfully so. However, if things continue to go the way they're going, and nobody does nothing about it, it will stop being a free country pretty soon.

People don't criticize the US lately because they hate it as a country, the critics come mostly because of its degradation to a less free state with each and every new invention of the current government. Actually, you should be grateful they care about your country, by bashing the goons that want to take your rights away...

 

[Big T]

The hell if I care if you were annoyed. I was annoyed as well...so do something about it. I was annoyed by your reply, so I just wanted to post that? Annoyed? There is no use in the constant same arguments over and over...if people won't listen to your defence, isn't much use in arguing.

That last bit was a note to the mods explaining that I didn't want to start a flame war, which I really do not want to do.

And you're a blind idiot if you see no freedoms and liberties in this country.

I didn't say there were no freedoms/liberties. I said it could be debated that this wasn't the case. I also did not state which side of the debate I would be on.

I'm guessing you're another regular nationalist

Wrong.

who likes nothing more than to constantly put down this country, sometimes with flawed arguments.

Wrong.

I could say tons about other countries, but frankly, I don't give a damn. I am happy living here, and don't find the constant need to compare other countries to mine, and say we're better, or you suck. Annoyed? I know I am.

I have no problem with America.
What I have a problem with is patriotic Americans (IE - nationalists) who blindly assume that everything they think about their country and the world is correct.

Using that little eye-rolling smiley as an entire argument, to assume that everyone will completely understand why you think that they are incorrect is what I have a problem with.

As far as countries go, America isn't too bad. You have plenty of civil liberties, plenty of freedom, and I don't think they are "the bad guys" as you seem to believe I do.

The problem is when some Americans will not tolerate any difference of opinion, any deviation from their views, any insinuation from a foreigner that the US isn't perfect.
I know all countries have some like that, but America seems to be the worst at it.

Anyways, I don't want to start a flame war, so I'll drop it.

 

[Paladin Solo]

First...a patriot is NOT a nationalist. I've already explained this before, and will not bother to take the time to do so again, just look them up at http://www.dictionary.com Althought the two can be compared in some areas, that doesn't make them the same. Hell, democracy and despotism can be compared in some areas as well...doen't make them the same does it?

Second...I was bothered by the annoyance remark, refering to my remark, in which I was annoyed of hearing the same thing from people over and over.

Openness to ideas and critiscim is a strongpoint in democracies, especially a state which is growing more liberal by the day, flawed and blind remarks, however, are a different story. I'm not saying yours was, just the remark that the Statue of Liberty no longer belongs here for it's purpose, which was insulting.

 

[alec]

Da power of wordz!

Well, it is the statue of LIBERTY, you know. It basically symbolizes what America lacks. And that's why those yanks use the statue so often in movies and ads: they're like teenagers who cover their bedroom walls with playmates of the month: they don't have a real one around, but at least the thought is there.

I still think it's a good one. Hehe.

 

[Big T]

Yes, it may well have been insulting.
But just quoting them and rolling your eyes does not solve anything.
That is not a useful method of debate

EDIT - Just checked the definitions, and I'm not sure you're completely correct there.
Patriot - One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.
Nationalism - Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation
Obviously those are just one set of definitions for those words, but there is, nevertheless, a similarity.

 

[Paladin Solo]

That's why I used it...as I said, I didn't want to debate the same argument over and over when people seem to forget your reasons of argument and continue their ways later on.

 

[John Uskglass]

Of course you're happy to live in a free country, and rightfully so. However, if things continue to go the way they're going, and nobody does nothing about it, it will stop being a free country pretty soon.

Nope. Thing's are'nt "continuing". They've stopped. We've done all we can to stop terrorists from striking in this country, and we realize that if, God forbid, something along those lines happens, we've done all we can without sacrificing all our freedom.

People seem to be forgetting that alot of the great freedoms we have temporarily denied to several groups of people are non-exsistant in Europe. And I don't just mean Belarus.

People don't criticize the US lately because they hate it as a country, the critics come mostly because of its degradation to a less free state with each and every new invention of the current government. Actually, you should be grateful they care about your country, by bashing the goons that want to take your rights away...

Goons? The only "goons" that want to take our rights away are in Riyadh. This is'nt Poland. We have a very large population that wants to set off a nuclear wepon in our capital, and a very large population in our own country that are from the same culture. Not to mention a large convert population.

Alot of people just want to take our power away from us. Alot of people=especially DuGaul loving French-are upset that we are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. Just listen to the Belgian Minister of Defense, who says the Belgian Army is "more effective then the American" and the "worst genocide ever was commited on American soil", or the French socialists who pine for the good 'ole days of constant fear of Nuclear annihalation and WW3 with a balance of super powers.

Many of these "people" hate America more then anything else. Some of them (yourself included, Wooz) don't, but I dare say most of them do.

 

[John Uskglass]

Patriot - One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.
Nationalism - Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation
Obviously those are just one set of definitions for those words, but there is, nevertheless, a similarity.

America lacks a real mainstreme nationalist policy. It's most comparable to Soviet nationalism in the pre-WW2 enviorment. Most of them take pride in the idea of America, not some ethnographical lines. That's not what Ameria was founded on.

 

[welsh]

A couple of points-

Paladin Solo- if you have a point, make a point. Don't use a smilie

Everyone else- hey, come on now folks, we don't all have to do the whomp ass on PS. Give the kid a break.

Blade Runner- insulting, maybe. Offensive, yes. But offensive speech is often good speech.

CCR- Goons? Look at a picture of Rumsfeld or Ashcroft. WOuld you buy a used car from those guys? And please stay on point.

Frankly I loved the use of the statue of liberty in Planet of the Apes. Great symbolism. Got to love those French.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Patriot

1. One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.

2. One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests

3. one who loves and defends his or her country

Nationalist

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

The only comparence is #2 of Patriot, but even that could be argued. But if you notice, a patriot can love his/her country, while also respecting others. A nationalist, loves only his/her own country, and believes it to be better than all others.

 

[John Uskglass]

Frankly I loved the use of the statue of liberty in Planet of the Apes. Great symbolism. Got to love those French

.
That ending was not in the book.

CCR- Goons? Look at a picture of Rumsfeld or Ashcroft. WOuld you buy a used car from those guys? And please stay on point.

I was on point. We're not fighting Mr. Momandpoppeacfulmuslim.

 

[alec]

We've done all we can to stop terrorists from striking in this country, and we realize that if, God forbid, something along those lines happens, we've done all we can without sacrificing all our freedom.

That's not what Kerry says, now is it?

People seem to be forgetting that alot of the great freedoms we have temporarily denied to several groups of people are non-exsistant in Europe. And I don't just mean Belarus.

You must be kidding, right? There's more freedom in Europe than anywhere else in this world.

We have a very large population that wants to set off a nuclear wepon in our capital, and a very large population in our own country that are from the same culture. Not to mention a large convert population.

There is a name for this: it's called 'xenophobia'.

Just listen to the Belgian Minister of Defense, who says the Belgian Army is "more effective then the American"

Although we don't have anything close to a real army, we do know how to listen and talk before actually shooting. Some people would say that is quite a civilized and effective way to AVOID unnecessary casualties.

 

[John Uskglass]

That's not what Kerry says, now is it?

Kerry on defense=weird, weak Bush

You must be kidding, right? There's more freedom in Europe than anywhere else in this world.

How so? Besides the Netherlands?

There is a name for this: it's called 'xenophobia'.

You deny that alot of people want to make it an extra sunny day near the Lincoln Memorial?

Although we don't have anything close to a real army, we do know how to listen and talk before actually shooting. Some people would say that is quite a civilized and effective way to AVOID unnecessary casualties.

Yeah, like when you killed 1/3 of the population of the Congo. Real "civilized" there.

We have a lot better reputaiton for avoiding casualties then any country on you're continent.

 

[Wooz]

Nope. Thing's are'nt "continuing". They've stopped.

Well, what do you say about the potential draft measures discussed in another thread, for one? Prolonging an US-led occupation of Iraq? "Stopped"? Re-developing nuclear weapons? IMO this is getting worse and worse.

People seem to be forgetting that alot of the great freedoms we have temporarily denied to several groups of people are non-exsistant in Europe. And I don't just mean Belarus.

Okay, maybe Albania, Ukraine. In any case, that's not my point. I was discussing the degradation of civil liberties in the United States, not comparing it to other countries' policies.

Goons? The only "goons" that want to take our rights away are in Riyadh.

No, I don't think so. Some of the goons in Riyadh want to blow you up, not to take your rights away.

People who sign treaties like the PATRIOT act, draft measures or stuff like this, people who censor freedom of speech and freedom of reunion, people who break up protests, unions, under the classical "safety" pretext, are the goons that want to take your rights away.

Alot of people just want to take our power away from us. Alot of people=especially DuGaul loving French-are upset that we are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. Just listen to the Belgian Minister of Defense, who says the Belgian Army is "more effective then the American" and the "worst genocide ever was commited on American soil", or the French socialists who pine for the good 'ole days of constant fear of Nuclear annihalation and WW3 with a balance of super powers.

Man, that's a bit paranoid, don't you think?
DeGaulle loving French? The French ditched DeGaulle after his crappy referendum. Does May '68 ring a bell?
Also, concerning the minister of defense, you should know politicians speak in broad and blatantly pompous words. Just to quote Dubyah: "We're fighting a war against evil." Come on, how pretentious is that?

AFAIK French Socialists are busy with the national educational system reform, not on plotting a scheme to bring down the US. The quote you mentioned probably mentions the Socialists bitching about the US being the only world superpower, imposing its will on the whole planet. I can't say I blame them, really.

In any case you do have a point with French people disliking Americans, and vice-versa. You have to understand them, a proud nation, once the world's superpower for centuries, reduced to a secondary, regional power. The thing I find amusing though is that French and American nationalists sound exactly the same. One arguing against another about a bit of toilet paper on a stick, and how one's country isn't the greatest and most powerful in history and so on.

Pointless.

And I do not think most of the planet's population is made up of sub-humans craving for the geopolitical powers of the US or its destruction, as you tried to point out, either. Some people might be pissed off at foreign policy, especially when it comes under the form of bombs.

 

[alec]

How so? Besides the Netherlands?

Belgium, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Italy, Spain, ...
It's really absurd to think that the Nerherlands are the only free country in Europe, CC (why would you say such a thing anyway? because they have... coffeeshops? D'uh!)

You deny that alot of people want to make it an extra sunny day near the Lincoln Memorial?

No, not at all. But you Americans should start to think about WHY they want to do that. Why would anyone want to do a terrible thing like that? They must have really good reasons, don't you think?

Yeah, like when you killed 1/3 of the population of the Congo. Real "civilized" there.

That's no argument at all. You're talking history here, CC. We also shot some Germans during both world wars (D'uh!), and in prehistoric times, local Germanic tribes kicked each other's skulls in with sticks and stones (D'uh!). We have evolved since then, you know. Not very much, I agree, but still: the effort is there.

We have a lot better reputaiton for avoiding casualties then any country on you're continent.

Switzerland!

 

[John Uskglass]

Well, what do you say about the potential draft measures discussed in another thread, for one? Prolonging an US-led occupation of Iraq? "Stopped"? Re-developing nuclear weapons? IMO this is getting worse and worse.

Draft ain't gonna happen. It's just not. We have to many bad memories from Vietnam.

I don't really know what you are talking about with a prolonged US occupation of Iraq having anything to do with US civil liberties, or redeveloping Nuclear wepons.

Okay, maybe Albania, Ukraine. In any case, that's not my point. I was discussing the degradation of civil liberties in the United States, not comparing it to other countries' policies.

Ukraine, Albania, greece, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia.........baisically everywhere. We are-in many ways-alot more Liberal then the French and Germans, in that Socialism is by it's very nature restrictive.

No, I don't think so. Some of the goons in Riyadh want to blow you up, not to take your rights away.

Nope. The professed goal of Wahhabism is world domination, including the US, and subject all non-Muslims to Muslim rule and payment of the Jizya, at which point the Muslim equivilent of the Apocolypse happens.

People who sign treaties like the PATRIOT act, draft measures or stuff like this, people who censor freedom of speech and freedom of reunion, people who break up protests, unions, under the classical "safety" pretext, are the goons that want to take your rights away.

I don't know what that article has to do with anything. I actually think that's a good idea. Again, this is a passing period.

Man, that's a bit paranoid, don't you think?
DeGaulle loving French? The French ditched DeGaulle after his crappy referendum. Does May '68 ring a bell?
Also, concerning the minister of defense, you should know politicians speak in broad and blatantly pompous words. Just to quote Dubyah: "We're fighting a war against evil." Come on, how pretentious is that?

Define "evil". Do the actions of genocide, the totally despicable treatment of women, dreams of world domination and a total disdain of democracy included in you're definition?

AFAIK French Socialists are busy with the national educational system reform, not on plotting a scheme to bring down the US. The quote you mentioned probably mentions the Socialists bitching about the US being the only world superpower, imposing its will on the whole planet. I can't say I blame them, really.

Wait, so you agre, it's better to be on the brink of total world annihilation then have a benevolent (comparitiviely) super-super power?

In any case you do have a point with French people disliking Americans, and vice-versa. You have to understand them, a proud nation, once the world's superpower for centuries, reduced to a secondary, regional power. The thing I find amusing though is that French and American nationalists sound exactly the same. One arguing against another about a bit of toilet paper on a stick, and how one's country isn't the greatest and most powerful in history and so on.

We don't have any LePen, I find that totally insulting.

And I do not think most of the planet's population is made up of sub-humans craving for the geopolitical powers of the US or its destruction, as you tried to point out, either. Some people might be pissed off at foreign policy, especially when it comes under the form of bombs

. Not most. But alot.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Don't some countries in Europe have required service acts? Isn't Germany one of them?