The Vault Experiment Program

[Ghoullove]

I think that BOS is an extension of the Masons. If anyone was to survive a nuclear conflict it definitely would be them.

As for the Vaults, in Fallout 3 there should be many to visit with each one being as incredibly screwed up as the last in terms of their experiments ie. Vault 69 . I would probably not want to leave Vault 69 once I got there. I would leave it to the last.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

How were the BoS the last heirs of the Masons? That makes no sense on a number of levels.

 

[Ghoullove]

The Masons are a status quo organization. BOS claims they are for the development of mankind but at their speed which seems to be a crawl. The Masons have survived much in the past few hundred years and they definitely would survive a nuclear holocaust and go on to found an organization like BOS. Or it could be all a conspiracy of George W Bush, he could be the founder of BOS. I will consult with my other Ghouls about this.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

Once again, how are they connected?

Listen, do you even know the stated origins of the BoS? There was never even a HINT of such a connection with Masonic organizations.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

BOS claims they are for the development of mankind but at their speed which seems to be a crawl.

They are "for" protecting mankind from itself. In their opinion, distributing their high technology equipment to anyone and everyone would be tantamount to giving humanity the means to commit mass suicide. Again.

And anyway, contrary to what FOT says, the BOS does not have the ability to produce new Power armor and the like. They're mostly just maintaining/salvaging/repairing pre-war equipment- for example, in F1 their scientists had finally managed to produce a working laser pistol from scratch- 85 years after the war. There's no point in disseminating your tech to the masses when both your stockpiles and ability to replenish them are limited (in some cases, severely so). Hence why their "speed seems to be a crawl".

The Masons have survived much in the past few hundred years and they definitely would survive a nuclear holocaust and go on to found an organization like BOS.

The BOS aren't Fallout's example of the results of a conspiracy, the Enclave are- though they're nothing but a big joke. Anyway, go play Deus Ex if you want conspiracies in your games that badly.

Or it could be all a conspiracy of George W Bush, he could be the founder of BOS.

I sincerely hope that was a bad joke. If it wasn't... well, realize that the BOS were founded after the war by soldiers and their families from the Mariposa Military base, not anyone from the government. Also, the odds are very likely that Dubya was never of any importance in Fallout's timeline. The evidence we have seems to point to McCarthyism's star never falling, (interlocking with the universe's "Red Scare" element quite nicely) leading to the development of the US society throughout the mid to late 1900's proceeding quite differently. In other words, becoming an oil-hungry, Starship Troopers-esque nation consumed by unchecked paranoia. Similar to where we're heading today, but not quite the same. The US government in the FO universe was quite clearly far more competent than ours, as long as you ignore the giant parody that was the Enclave Oil Rig.

Once again, how are they connected?

They're not, he simply wishes they were. His greatest hope/wish is likely for Fallout 3 to be akin to a post-apocalyptic Deus Ex, conspiracy theories and all. (Sadly, this is very likely what will happen, even though Bethesda didn't manage to get their hands on Warren Spector, Valve did...)

Not managing to get Warren, Bethesda are instead courting Raph Koster. Presumably for the purpose of having him head up an Elder Scrolls MMO... though the nightmares of many could manifest in reality as a Raph-headed Fallout MMO. Seeing as Interplay is nothing but a shell, Beth could easily buy the rights for the Fallout MMO from them for a mere pittance.
How apropos it would be, to have a TOOL heading FOOL.

 

[Roshambo]

The BoS Masonic? Not really. The Children of the Cathedral were the element more befitting Masonic style, even down to their robe style and iconology.

The BoS just didn't have that kind of duplicity involved with them, and seemed to be fairly simple military roots.

 

[SuAside]

BoS has indeed very little to do with any Masonic ideology. nor do the Children as far as i'm concerned...

iconology, ok, perhaps. but really, a lot of symbols are mutual to all religions and philosophic organisations around the world. that doesnt say much.

but robe design? must be something american then, because on the euro-mainland, there are almost no 'full' robes in any ceremony that i know of (and certainly not any resembling the Children's robes).

speaking of which, i couldnt place the Simpsons parody on the Freemasons due to the weird setting & clothes... it just isnt that way in Europe (at least, not that i know of)

 

[Brother None]

How would you know, Su?

Unless...

You are a mason?!

OMG TFW conspiracy!

 

[Ausir]

When you think about it, both groups have a fair bit in common, they both believe themselves to be superior, they both want to "unite the wastes" and they both use force to achieve their means.

The BOS don't want to unite the wastes, at least not in FO1 and FO2. They did in FOT and FOBOS, and in Van Buren they waged war against the NCR (which was loosely based on one of the FO1 endings).

 

[SuAside]

How would you know, Su?
Unless...
You are a mason?!
OMG TFW conspiracy!

OMFGWTFBBQ!

but no, i'm sorry to disappoint you. i'm not yet a Freemason. i suspect it's only a matter of time though, as i do intend to join somewhere down the road. it is a great place to discuss all sorts of things and open your mind. the rituals dont mean much to me, but the discussions and speakers are extremely diverse. it's a good place to meet people as well.

i know a good deal of the rituals as well as the codes. this is mostly because my father is one of the grandmasters (dont know if this term is correct in english). he never hid it from anyone if they were to ask, although many members tend to keep it quiet (mostly because so many people dont understand what the Masons are about).

either way, i know a good deal of their stuff. it's not that interesting really, but the discussions, workshops and other activities (such as making people believe that you are plotting for world domination, while you're actually already past that point *insert evil hysterical laughter*) are.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

i know a good deal of the rituals as well as the codes. this is mostly because my father is one of the grandmasters (dont know if this term is correct in english). he never hid it from anyone if they were to ask, although many members tend to keep it quiet (mostly because so many people dont understand what the Masons are about).

Your father is a Mason grandmaster?! DIE, DEMONSPAWN!

 

[Ghoullove]

The Ghouls and I have been talking and we have decided that there is no conspiracy. BOS simply put is a benevolent restoration society only. Any similarity to the Masons was premature.

I was indeed in jest when I spoke of George W Bush.

 

[SuAside]

i wouldnt call BoS benevolent. not in the original FO sense of things.

remember, Maxson himself said: "our only concern is survival. many of the weapons you see in the wastes we have manufactured and sold, but the true technology we keep for ourself."

they also mention that they trade the water merchants for water and that they arent self sufficient in that aspect (pretty weak for a high technological group like that). by having to trade so much, they release A LOT of uncontrolled weapons into the waste & thereby cause a lot of suffering for the weaker folk...

 

[Roshambo]

BoS has indeed very little to do with any Masonic ideology. nor do the Children as far as i'm concerned...

iconology, ok, perhaps. but really, a lot of symbols are mutual to all religions and philosophic organisations around the world. that doesnt say much.

but robe design? must be something american then, because on the euro-mainland, there are almost no 'full' robes in any ceremony that i know of (and certainly not any resembling the Children's robes).

Masonic conventional dress seems to become a bit more amusing. Braces and aprons for everyone.

speaking of which, i couldnt place the Simpsons parody on the Freemasons due to the weird setting & clothes... it just isnt that way in Europe (at least, not that i know of)

It is a bit different, many different chapters go with robes, others don't, even the 1778 Grad Londge in England had a proposal to include robes. Subsects also wear them, and it is this mixed with a bit of Illuminati that blends into what is used for Fallout. Even the interface used to have the Eye, as part of the right-click menu, but I think it was discarded because the game as a whole doesn't have a Illuminati or Masonic conspiracy bent to it, just the Children.

 

[SuAside]

Masonic conventional dress seems to become a bit more amusing. Braces and aprons for everyone.

bracers? hmz, here it's apron & gloves mostly. (+ the occasional sword for higher ranks at big ceremonies)

Even the interface used to have the Eye, as part of the right-click menu, but I think it was discarded because the game as a whole doesn't have a Illuminati or Masonic conspiracy bent to it, just the Children.

yeah i've seen the sketches, but well, that same eye is used for the old catholic "don't curse, god sees you"-crap. so it's not really a Masonic or Illuminati monopoly...

 

[Ausir]

Even the interface used to have the Eye, as part of the right-click menu, but I think it was discarded because the game as a whole doesn't have a Illuminati or Masonic conspiracy bent to it, just the Children.

No, it was discarded because it's the logo of Steve Jackson Games, the publisher of GURPS, and Fallout was initially going to use GURPS, not because of any conspiracy.

 

[Roshambo]

No, it was discarded because it's the logo of Steve Jackson Games, the publisher of GURPS, and Fallout was initially going to use GURPS, not because of any conspiracy.

I didn't mean it was for conspiracy, really, but more like Illuminati/Masonic-style plans and designs the Children had, as it was the intent to rebuild it under The Master's form of order. I also didn't draw the connection because the Eye styles used were a bit different between the right-click menu and SJG's. Although, it must be noted, that the plans of The Master do kind of fit within the Illuminati and SJG seems to have a lot to do with that theme.

Conspiracy, I tell you!

 

[Tycell]

Getting back on topic here;

I also belive the whole "Vault Experiment" story was utter rubbish. I mean common, you build these huge underground vaults which cost billions upon billions to create, built to survive a nuclear war and then "Oh, now we have spent our ziillions on making these vaults, lets do a feild experiment which could take actual phychologists a few weeks to complete."

Its just like; What are you on BIS?

The Vaults should have stayed as just high tech fallout shelters, some failed before otheres (Necropolis) which is the only reason some opened before others, one had only one male inside, well maybe all the honourable men said "Women and children first" and one guy snuck in. But "It was all a grand experiment" is such a load.

Once the war was over you are going to need strong good minds to rebuild civilisation and to purge the wastes of the leftover scum such as raiders and mutants. Not a load of half breed walking corpses which all have the same father and have mutated to grow a second arse hole due to radiation. The "Vault Experiment" was one of the things I REALLY didnt like about Fallout 2, that allong with the Enclave, they ruined the whole Fallout atmosphere and could have been done MUCH better.

I really hope F3 does not have any more of this 'Hype Hype Hype' attotude.

In the fallout serise so far its been like this;

First you were humantiy best, last hope who had to defeat the biggest threat to humanity, post war. - Beliveable.

Then you were a cave man who rose to take out an entire army of super super soldiers and their nearly invincible (common, in a fair fight franky baby would tear any top level dweller a new one) bad ass agent and save the whole world from a second cleansing. - B rate movie story.

Most recently, you are once again a cave man (tribal recruit) who joins a super high tech para millitary organisation, rises to the rank of general in a matter of months and defeats army after army of 'bad guys' ending with a climactic battle against a super army of killer robots controlled by a collection of brains in a tank and once again save the entire world! - Not even worthy of a B movie.

If Fallout 3 wants to get anywhere with the main base of its fans, they should KEEP IT SIMPLE. Vaults were built as shelters, "Plans were barley in place when the bombs hit", vaults go wrong, pleople forced to leave. SO SO EASY! No conspiracy, no need for any "big evil super power experimenting on the masses for a laugh" (though of course there should be some form of super enemy).

Another thing, does anyone else think the super mutatns from F1 - 2 are SO Much better than Craptics versions of them? FT:BOS's super mutants were ridiculess, they looked like uber body builders gone wrong, somthing you would expect to see in dragon ball z or somthing, the original tall green hunched powerful super mutant was the best, fuck all the masses upon masses of muscle which made up the Craptics mutatns, they looked more hilarious than provoking.

Predicitions for Fallout 3 IMO arnt good, though of course the company making it has a LOT of pressure on them to try and live up to the name, let me give them this advice; If it aint broke, dont fix it. Please dont delve even deeper into the story, just keep it simple and beliveable, keep it real, keep it Fallout.

 

[Ghoullove]

Amen and pass the ammo!

 

[Sander]

Getting back on topic here;

I also belive the whole "Vault Experiment" story was utter rubbish. I mean common, you build these huge underground vaults which cost billions upon billions to create, built to survive a nuclear war and then "Oh, now we have spent our ziillions on making these vaults, lets do a feild experiment which could take actual phychologists a few weeks to complete."

Wrong on all counts.
First of all, the Vaults made a profit, since they were made by a company, not the government. The company sold vault places to citizens, in order to make a profit. Hence, no money is lost. Vault-tek would obviously also not give a shit about what would happen with the people in the vaults once they'd gotten their money.

And thinking that psychologists could complete complex sociological experiments that would require large groups of people interacting with eachother under specific circumstances with no positive outlook and 'knowing' that the outside world was doomed within a matter of weeks is absolutely ridiculous.

Its just like; What are you on BIS?

Except that it was Tim Cain, one of the main minds behind the original Fallout and not a part of BIS, who thought it out. Whoops?

The Vaults should have stayed as just high tech fallout shelters, some failed before otheres (Necropolis) which is the only reason some opened before others, one had only one male inside, well maybe all the honourable men said "Women and children first" and one guy snuck in. But "It was all a grand experiment" is such a load.

It's a lot more likely than the 'maybe a guy snuck in but the rest was honorable' explanation.

Once the war was over you are going to need strong good minds to rebuild civilisation and to purge the wastes of the leftover scum such as raiders and mutants. Not a load of half breed walking corpses which all have the same father and have mutated to grow a second arse hole due to radiation. The "Vault Experiment" was one of the things I REALLY didnt like about Fallout 2, that allong with the Enclave, they ruined the whole Fallout atmosphere and could have been done MUCH better.

Jesus Christ, does no one read the previous post in a thread anymore? As has been explained multiple times over, the Vault Experiments can easily be explained by taking the opinion that:

- The people in the vaults were not seen as useful or needed for a post-war build-up (since, hey, the US could probably win the war, and otherwise the real important people would have vaults for themselves).

- It was a secondary objective of the vaults, where the 'safe shelter' would be the main purpose, but they could simultaneously be used for experiments.

-There were many, many more vaults throughout the entire nation since there were already some six (If I recall correctly) vaults in the relatively small space Fallout and Fallout 2 covered.

Besides that, it does fit very well with the Fallout setting in the sense that it adds another layer of government secrecy and conspiracy (which is already pretty abundant in Fallout), it explains the Overseer's motives better than just labeling him a scared conservative and it means that the player can uncover a lot more about the universe and pre-war history, which is also a good thing.