Theo Van Gogh murdered

I just remembered why I hate discussions so much: they tend to go on and on and on and on and on and on...

It makes alec go :zzz:
 
More and more information is being released, and some very interesting and important facts are coming to light.

For one, the murderer was a Moroccon/Dutchmen, who had boh nationalities. However, he was not only raised in the Netherlands, but he was also radicalised here. According to everyone who knew him, he was a quiet, civilised and completely integrated person during his high-school years. He was as much a Dutchman as anyone else. His radicalisation happened in the Netherlands, but it is not yet clear how this happened. Interestingly, thouh, several mosques in Amsterdam had already refused him because of his radicalisation. This, it would seem, would show that there is a radical Islam present here, but it would also show that most of the muslims don't support this.

It has also become clear that the murderer was probably part of a larger terrorist network. Several additional men have been arrrested with charges of terrorism, and there have been reports claiming that they are all part of the same terrorist network, which claims to want to do something about the insulters and enemies of Islam, though they do not seem to care about overthrowing the Dutch government or anything like that.

Furthermore, the Netherlands is radicalising. I'm afraid that my fears were grounded: according to the NOS, 90 percent of the Dutch want the government and police to have ore possibilities, regardless of breaches of privacy, or breaches of law. 80% hopes that the integration policy becomes even stricter (to put this into perspective: the government has made the integration policies stricter in the past years, and every time there has been an outcry and somewhat of an outrage at these strict policies), and 40% thinks that muslims should not feel welcome here.

Furthermore, there have been several assaults on mosques, including one bombing in Eindhoven, and other places of gathering for immigrants and muslims.
And now there have also been assaults on churches today.
 
Ok, Sander but this fits into what we know.

(1) Minorities are always vulnerable to discrimination by more popular groups.
(2) Fear works as a way to push the people into more conservative "security" over "liberty" choices
(3) Terrorism is rarely merely irrational, but a rational means of protest by violence in order to motivate political change, often by fringe groups.

Sounds like the Netherlands is falling into a similar cycle as found elsewhere.
 
Sander said:
More and more information is being released, and some very interesting and important facts are coming to light.

For one, the murderer was a Moroccon/Dutchmen, who had boh nationalities. However, he was not only raised in the Netherlands, but he was also radicalised here. According to everyone who knew him, he was a quiet, civilised and completely integrated person during his high-school years. He was as much a Dutchman as anyone else. His radicalisation happened in the Netherlands, but it is not yet clear how this happened. Interestingly, thouh, several mosques in Amsterdam had already refused him because of his radicalisation. This, it would seem, would show that there is a radical Islam present here, but it would also show that most of the muslims don't support this.

It has also become clear that the murderer was probably part of a larger terrorist network. Several additional men have been arrrested with charges of terrorism, and there have been reports claiming that they are all part of the same terrorist network, which claims to want to do something about the insulters and enemies of Islam, though they do not seem to care about overthrowing the Dutch government or anything like that.

Furthermore, the Netherlands is radicalising. I'm afraid that my fears were grounded: according to the NOS, 90 percent of the Dutch want the government and police to have ore possibilities, regardless of breaches of privacy, or breaches of law. 80% hopes that the integration policy becomes even stricter (to put this into perspective: the government has made the integration policies stricter in the past years, and every time there has been an outcry and somewhat of an outrage at these strict policies), and 40% thinks that muslims should not feel welcome here.

Furthermore, there have been several assaults on mosques, including one bombing in Eindhoven, and other places of gathering for immigrants and muslims.
And now there have also been assaults on churches today.
Click to expand...


You know, I'm kind of surprised, I agree with you more and more on the situation, just not on the solution.

Sander, I personally think it's probably good for the Netherlands to enforce stricter immigration laws and real assimilation policies, just to ensure this does'nt happen on a larger scale.

Frankly, this is kind of scaring the shit out of me, Sander. I don't think this is going to set off WWIII or anything, but it looks kind of like Europe is pulling all kinds of nasty tricks to avoid a now inevitable rise of the Euronationalists (see Belguium and Vlaam's Block). Far right idiots bombing a Muslim school is'nt going to help anybody.
 
You know, I'm kind of surprised, I agree with you more and more on the situation, just not on the solution.

Sander, I personally think it's probably good for the Netherlands to enforce stricter immigration laws and real assimilation policies, just to ensure this does'nt happen on a larger scale.

Frankly, this is kind of scaring the shit out of me, Sander. I don't think this is going to set off WWIII or anything, but it looks kind of like Europe is pulling all kinds of nasty tricks to avoid a now inevitable rise of the Euronationalists (see Belguium and Vlaam's Block). Far right idiots bombing a Muslim school is'nt going to help anybody.
Click to expand...
Stricter immigration policies and assimilation policies are already being put into place. The question is whether they are effective or not, that's a question which will remain unanswered for a while. Information on what the exact policies will be is a bit scarce, but I'll try to find out some more.
Note, though, that stricter immigration policies and assimilation policies wouldn't have prevented this. Religions can't and shouldn't be made illegal, and the man who committed this murder was fully assimilated into society and had even been born here. Stricter policies wouldn't have helped at all in this case. And now it's the Dutchmen who are committing the violent acts, not the non-integrated muslims.

In the mean time, after the bombing of a muslim school in Eindhoven, now a muslim school in Uden has been burned down to the ground. Only the walls remain, and the windows had been marked with "R.I.P. Theo" and the White Power sign. Bah. This is going far, way too far. This is unlike anything I've seen in my entire life here.
The scariest thing for me is, perhaps, that Uden is the place where my grandfather lives and has lived all of his life, and Eindhoven is the place where I go to uni.

As well as that, it seems that a large scale investigation of possible terrorists in The Hague is currently under way.
 
Sander said:
In the mean time, after the bombing of a muslim school in Eindhoven, now a muslim school in Uden has been burned down to the ground. Only the walls remain, and the windows had been marked with "R.I.P. Theo" and the White Power sign. Bah. This is going far, way too far. This is unlike anything I've seen in my entire life here.
The scariest thing for me is, perhaps, that Uden is the place where my grandfather lives and has lived all of his life, and Eindhoven is the place where I go to uni.

As well as that, it seems that a large scale investigation of possible terrorists in The Hague is currently under way.
Click to expand...

I saw it on the news this afternoon. Looks like there's a war going on in The Hague and the rest of the Netherlands. Scary stuff. Especially when I think that this is all happening very close to home. Hm. Weird times. Very weird times. :roll:
 
Seems like you folks are dealing with people who are just as radical, and believe in "fighting terrorism with terrorism".

I feel for you, especially with it on your front doorstep.
 
There's a white power symbol now?
Did this Theo have any connection with white power groups? Or are they just using him as a martyr anyway?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I (or one of my kin) was used in that way.
 
There's been a white power symbol for ages.
http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/sayar/f3.gif

And no, Theo didn't have anything to do with White Power groups, they're using him to justify they're actions, even though his family has come out repeatedly and said that Theo would never have stood for these kinds of acts of terrorism. That doesn't stop them from abusing his death, though.

In some more news, the actions against terrorists in The Hague has resulted in two arrests.
 
Broken link there Sander. Doesn't matter I had a quick look myself. Kinda like a white fist with some leaves in an arc at the bottom (looks like something out of W40K)? Well, unless there are two White Power symbols. *shudder*

I'm not surprised that there is a symbol, in fact, I would have been surprised if there wasn't one, I've just never seen one before. Perhaps I'm just lucky.
They tend to use the British (or sometimes English) flag over here, or sometimes the Nazi cross.
Damn, I hate racists.

EDIT - After looking further, I've seen 4 different symbols. Three of which involve crosses (two of them Nazi crosses) the other the fist (with or without the leaves).

EDIT 2 - Yes, it's working now Sander, that's one of the crosses I saw.
 
Broken for you, maybe, not for me. And no, it's not my cache. here are two symbols, though. It's a cross with a circle and white pride world wide written around it.
 
It's called a celtic cross.

Or a target sign on where to spit.
 
Ooh, look at my little country going on in a downward spiral. Now a church in Rotterdam has been set on fire. Yay, how smart these people must be to figure out that doing all this is a good idea.
 
And so the Economist weighs in on this issue-

Islamic terrorism in Europe

After Van Gogh

Nov 11th 2004 | AMSTERDAM, BERLIN, BRUSSELS AND PARIS
From The Economist print edition

Hollandse Hoogte

Europeans ponder how the tolerant can best deal with the intolerant

“THE jihad has come to the Netherlands.” That was the verdict of Jozias van Aartsen, a leading Dutch Christian Democrat, after the violence following last week's murder in Amsterdam of Theo van Gogh, a film-maker, by a Muslim radical. Attacks on mosques and Muslim schools were met by retaliatory attacks on churches. A raid on a terrorist cell in The Hague turned into a street battle featuring hand grenades and wounded policemen, before two suspects were arrested.

This sorry tale raises a big issue not just in the Netherlands, but across Europe: how far should liberal societies tolerate the intolerant? For 20 years the instinct of many has been to defend the rights and cultures of growing numbers of Muslim immigrants, even radicals. Any other approach, it was feared, would pander to racists. But both multiculturalism and tolerance are now under broad attack.


In the Netherlands, Pim Fortuyn, a gay maverick, popularised the argument that Muslim immigrants were promoting values inimical to Dutch traditions. When he was murdered in 2002, his political movement all but collapsed. But some of his arguments found a new advocate in Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a female Somali immigrant and former Muslim who is now a liberal member of parliament. She urges the Dutch to insist forcefully on the superiority of western liberal values. Ms Hirsi Ali was threatened, along with Mr Van Gogh, after they made a film together that attacked Islamic fundamentalists' treatment of women.

Voters are also turning to a new champion, Geert Wilders, a renegade member of parliament thrown out by the liberals. Polls show that his party-in-the-making might win 7-17 seats if an election were held now, largely thanks to his attacks on Islam. The government urges restraint; but it is tightening immigration controls and cracking down on Islamic extremists.

In France, Nicolas Sarkozy, now finance minister but once interior minister, commented recently that “whether I like it or not, Islam is the second biggest religion in France. So you've got to integrate it by making it more French.” His government has a two-pronged approach to its 5m-strong Muslim population. It has tried to contain the radicalism of Islamists by co-opting them. And it has used a tough security regime to curb troublemakers.

To the first end, Mr Sarkozy last year set up the French Council of the Muslim Faith, an official voice for French Islam. When hardliners won elections to its regional branches and governing council, he said this was no disaster: it was best to bring such groups out of the shadows. Yet his strategy has had mixed results. A power-struggle rages in the council, threatening moderates. But one mark of the council's success was the reaction to the seizure in Iraq of two French journalists whose captors want the repeal of a ban on the headscarf in state schools. All shades of French Islam condemned the capture.

France has a strikingly harsh anti-terrorism policy. It has had no qualms in making the most of laws allowing the detention of terrorist suspects without trial for months on end. All four of its nationals repatriated from Guantánamo Bay were detained on a judge's instruction on their return to France. Dominique de Villepin, Mr Sarkozy's successor as interior minister, has been unyielding in his determination to expel imams guilty of hate crimes. When an expulsion order against Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian cleric based near Lyon, was overruled in the courts, Mr de Villepin changed the law—and Mr Bouziane was on the next plane out.

For Mr de Villepin, the trade-off between security and civil liberties is a fine one. But he insists “we must never find ourselves in a position of powerlessness.” The French monitor activity at mosques across the country, reckoning that of 1,500 Muslim prayer places, some 50 preach a radical form of Islam. This need not mean violence, but Mr de Villepin urges vigilance: “radical Islam can be used as a breeding ground for terrorism.” The French are also keen to co-operate with other European countries, fearful that their tough regime might otherwise move the problem to “softer” neighbours. With this in mind, Mr de Villepin has secured agreement with Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain to share intelligence on radical Islamists who attend training camps.

In Germany, home to 3.5m Muslims, over three times as many as the Netherlands, fears of violence and jihad are somewhat smaller. Admittedly, Islamic extremists could hit anywhere, but most Muslims in Germany are from Turkey (2.6m) or Bosnia (170,000), and espouse a more moderate form of Islam. Police have found few links between Islamic groups in Germany and the Netherlands. Yet Germany is not oblivious to the threat. As in France, the government is getting tougher on Islamic fundamentalists, even as it tries to foster integration. This double strategy underpins Germany's new immigration law: it facilitates the expulsion of Islamic radicals, but also makes language classes mandatory for immigrants.

In the same spirit, EU immigration ministers, meeting in the Netherlands, signed up on November 10th to common principles, both tender and tough, for integrating newcomers. They must be helped to take part in peaceful politics; faith must be respected, but not used to curb freedom.

In Germany, as elsewhere, there is now more emphasis on toughness. In October, after four years of legal manoeuvring, Germany ejected Metin Kaplan, the Turkish founder of an illegal Islamic group. There is less tolerance for radical Islamists using legal tricks to stay in Germany. The rule of law must “show its edge”, says Otto Schily, the interior minister.

After the Van Gogh murder, calls for Europe's open societies to be more aggressive towards Islamic radicals can only get louder. “Militant Islamism is only a tiny force in Europe”, wrote the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, “yet it is dangerous, because many societies on this continent have elevated their defencelessness into a virtue.” Yet the risk is that, rather than the intolerant learning tolerance, the tolerant become intolerant too.
Click to expand...
 
Voters are also turning to a new champion, Geert Wilders, a renegade member of parliament thrown out by the liberals. Polls show that his party-in-the-making might win 7-17 seats if an election were held now, largely thanks to his attacks on Islam. The government urges restraint; but it is tightening immigration controls and cracking down on Islamic extremists.
Click to expand...
In fact, latest polls show that Wilders would get more votes than his previous party, the liberal VVD (the party of Hirsi Ali), which has historically always been one of the three largest parties and is now part of the government.

In the same spirit, EU immigration ministers, meeting in the Netherlands, signed up on November 10th to common principles, both tender and tough, for integrating newcomers. They must be helped to take part in peaceful politics; faith must be respected, but not used to curb freedom.
Click to expand...
Vague wording was used, and such general concepts that are already being used in most places. (Knowledge of culture and language, hurray).

Meh, not too much of an interesting article. I'd like to see what the EU will do next, especially the integration policies since more concrete policies will probably show up.
 
Sander said:
Ooh, look at my little country going on in a downward spiral. Now a church in Rotterdam has been set on fire. Yay, how smart these people must be to figure out that doing all this is a good idea.
Click to expand...
:wink:

It's okay Sander. You had alot of faith in humanity. At some point, we all loose that. I just lost that years before you did.

Uh. Can't say any of this is a surprise, but I kind of expected this Levantification later.
 
Flemish aren't the offspring of the Gauls, you twit. We're Germanic.

Plus, I don't see why Dutchies would somehow be more rational than us. Nobody's murdering anyone, or bombing any mosques here, you know.
 
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