Things Fallout 76 did right 1#: The Brotherhood of Steel

[Hassknecht]

I have no problem with satellite communications and even the Brotherhood communicating across country.
What I have a problem with is the Brotherhood apparently just randomly forming new chapters of themselves in the middle of nowhere with nothing but radio contact this shortly after the War. The BoS is not some sensible idea that everyone could just get behind, they're basically a bunch of loonies if we're being honest. A bunch of people in a bunker pretending to be some sort of high tech knight order, seriously? And you're telling me that this is something that can spread via radio?
Organizing yourself to survive and rebuild is not some foreign idea, but rebuilding pretending you're some sort of paladin is. If you met the BoS dudes in person, ok, but not over radio. And not just 25 years after the War, but that's just my feeling.
All in all, this reeks of laziness in writing. Bethesda's vision of Fallout is based on two basic pillars: Brotherhood of Steel, and super mutants. Without those they can't make a Fallout game because without them they wouldn't know what to write. It's their "look, this is Fallout and not some other world" paintjob that they have to put on.
Let's face it, they will ALWAYS have BoS and super mutants in their games, no matter how stupid it would be.
And that is lazy and boring.

/edit: Mind you, this could have been done in an interesting way, if Bethesda had spent more then two minutes thinking about it. Make the WV BoS a complete mockery, a bunch of dudes silkscreening a shoddy logo on their jammies to cosplay post-apocalyptic knights they heard about over the radio. That would have been funny.

 

[Risewild]

It makes perfect sense that the USA military would follow orders from deserters... In a country full of nationalism and propaganda, desertion would be seen as treason. Treason would probably have the death penalty.

Also, the Enclave would probably have assimilated the USA military forces still alive. The Enclave apparently are also in the region, so they would have a much easier time to recruit the army remnants then some deserters from the other side of the country.

 

[CT Phipps]

It makes perfect sense that the USA military would follow orders from deserters... In a country full of nationalism and propaganda, desertion would be seen as treason. Treason would probably have the death penalty.

I think when your leadership abandons its post to go to an Oil Rig or Outer Space, you're kind of fucked chain of command wise.

Also, the Enclave would probably have assimilated the USA military forces still alive.

Except, they didn't and stayed on an oil rig for a hundred years. Remember the Enclave only cares about itself.

[The Enclave apparently are also in the region, so they would have a much easier time to recruit the army remnants then some deserters from the other side of the country.

Mind you, the East Coast Enclave wanted to rebuild the country but its "President" declared himself separate from the Oil Rig and then ordered them to nuke China again.

It resulted in a civil war where they all got killed.

 

[AmericanRed]

I have no problem with satellite communications and even the Brotherhood communicating across country.
What I have a problem with is the Brotherhood apparently just randomly forming new chapters of themselves in the middle of nowhere with nothing but radio contact this shortly after the War. The BoS is not some sensible idea that everyone could just get behind, they're basically a bunch of loonies if we're being honest. A bunch of people in a bunker pretending to be some sort of high tech knight order, seriously? And you're telling me that this is something that can spread via radio?
Organizing yourself to survive and rebuild is not some foreign idea, but rebuilding pretending you're some sort of paladin is. If you met the BoS dudes in person, ok, but not over radio. And not just 25 years after the War, but that's just my feeling.
All in all, this reeks of laziness in writing. Bethesda's vision of Fallout is based on two basic pillars: Brotherhood of Steel, and super mutants. Without those they can't make a Fallout game because without them they wouldn't know what to write. It's their "look, this is Fallout and not some other world" paintjob that they have to put on.
Let's face it, they will ALWAYS have BoS and super mutants in their games, no matter how stupid it would be.
And that is lazy and boring.

/edit: Mind you, this could have been done in an interesting way, if Bethesda had spent more then two minutes thinking about it. Make the WV BoS a complete mockery, a bunch of dudes silkscreening a shoddy logo on their jammies to cosplay post-apocalyptic knights they heard about over the radio. That would have been funny.

Already told him that, two times. Makes absolutely no sense for these people to just "join" out of goodwill and beautiful speeches. At this point he's just ignoring the arguments he can't answer and trying to dodge the fact that Bethesda pretty much tried to justify the BoS in 76 with "Well, It just works!". You see, even your take on a "mockery version" of the BoS would be better than saying a bunch of hardened military veterans decided to "play knights" based on radio propaganda.

 

[Hassknecht]

"Abandoning post"? It's continuity of government, the oil rig is similar to Raven Rock, Cheyenne Mountain, or any other such site. Sure, the Enclave apparently didn't do shit to coordinate the rebuilding efforts, but then again, neither did the BoS. Until the 2150s they didn't really do much, and even afterwards they were mostly their own faction with their own goals, and not some benevolent mechanized clean-up-force.
Why would the BoS tell some West Virginia dudes to go and be paladins of the wasteland when at the time the original BoS dudes were presumably still bickering about their ranks and titles and who gets to be stuck with the role of bard.

I think a Fallout game set immediately after the Great War would be interesting. Like, PROPER survival of the few who survived the initial onslaught. I mean, some survived outside the vaults. A game following the formation and development of the gangs in the Boneyard would be cool (and no, I don't like the notion that a game set there would be The Walking Dead because of the zombies/ghouls).

 

[Risewild]

I think when your leadership abandons its post to go to an Oil Rig or Outer Space, you're kind of fucked chain of command wise.

A soldier does not question orders. Soldiers live to protect their country, their people and their chief of state.
Having leadership survive would motivate the troops and give them morale and hope to rebuild or just find who nuked them and kick their ass.

Also the Enclave has a base of operations in the region, and they were active after the bombs fell until all humans got wiped out by the scorched plague or whatever it is called. So why would the army turn their back to everything they hold dear and side with a frikin' deserter?

Also we can see it from Maxson's side. He took his troops that followed him and hid in the bunker, after sending the clear message he was deserting and that he wouldn't have anything to do with the Army or the government. He waited for the government to send forces to arrest them for treason.
So why would he contact other Army people and recruit them?
He was done with the entirety of the USA armed forces, that was why he deserted the first place, after what he saw in Mariposa. He wouldn't be contacting other military organizations...

 

[CT Phipps]

A soldier does not question orders. Soldiers live to protect their country, their people and their chief of state.
Having leadership survive would motivate the troops and give them morale and hope to rebuild or just find who nuked them and kick their ass.

Yes, which is why they'd follow Maxson as the highest ranking leadership given the Enclave abandoned them.

Also the Enclave has a base of operations in the region, and they were active after the bombs fell until all humans got wiped out by the scorched plague or whatever it is called. So why would the army turn their back to everything they hold dear and side with a frikin' deserter?

Again, the Enclave has no interest in contacting them and doesn't. Because the Enclave doesn't care about any but their small group. Remember they don't even want to recruit the vaults, they just want their own tiny group of descendants.

Also we can see it from Maxson's side. He took his troops that followed him and hid in the bunker, after sending the clear message he was deserting and that he wouldn't have anything to do with the Army or the government. He waited for the government to send forces to arrest them for treason.

Because the United States leadership had committed crimes against humanity and abandoned their posts (thus forfeiting their positions) plus destroyed the country. Your argument functions if dictatorships have never suffered coups, civil wars, rebellions, or crisises in leadership.

Which is bullshit given the number of times people tried to kill Hitler. Authoritarian regimes are always less stable than democracies.

So why would he contact other Army people and recruit them?
He was done with the entirety of the USA armed forces, that was why he deserted the first place, after what he saw in Mariposa. He wouldn't be contacting other military organizations...

Because the leader of the Appalachian military forces was Roger Maxson's ex-girlfriend and best friend. They were previously in the same squad and served together. The wiki entry understates their relationship.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Taggerdy

 

[CT Phipps]

Already told him that, two times. Makes absolutely no sense for these people to just "join" out of goodwill and beautiful speeches.

They join because it is becoming part of a larger rebuilding effort.

At this point he's just ignoring the arguments he can't answer and trying to dodge the fact that Bethesda pretty much tried to justify the BoS in 76 with "Well, It just works!". You see, even your take on a "mockery version" of the BoS would be better than saying a bunch of hardened military veterans decided to "play knights" based on radio propaganda.

Ah yes, you are going, "No, you" after I told you the exact same thing. Of course, I'm rolling my eyes at the only argument that you seem to have being you think the Brotherhood of Steel is "silly." Apparently, you ACTUALLY think they think they're knights versus just using titles.

Do you know anything about the organization? They're trained military personnel and highly technically educated engineers. They just use different titles than Colonel, Lieutenant, and so on.

 

[CT Phipps]

"Abandoning post"? It's continuity of government, the oil rig is similar to Raven Rock, Cheyenne Mountain, or any other such site. Sure, the Enclave apparently didn't do shit to coordinate the rebuilding efforts, but then again, neither did the BoS. Until the 2150s they didn't really do much, and even afterwards they were mostly their own faction with their own goals, and not some benevolent mechanized clean-up-force.

It's abandoning their post when they make no effort to contact any other Americans for 100 years. As for the rebuilding efforts, the BOS have been attempting to do so. The BOS have been working to confiscate and dismantle dangerous technology the entire time. There's also Fallout: Tactics.

Removing technology is just a shitty way to "save" the world.

Why would the BoS tell some West Virginia dudes to go and be paladins of the wasteland when at the time the original BoS dudes were presumably still bickering about their ranks and titles and who gets to be stuck with the role of bard.

They weren't bickering at all since Roger Maxson is personally in charge of the group. This is when the Brotherhood is united and strong.

Also, people are intelligent enough to know the Brotherhood of Steel functions as identical to a modern mechanized military, right? They're not idiots enough to forget the "Great Chain" is just a description of how the chain of command functions and that it works as a advanced eductaed force--that the people who call them feudalists and so on are the idiots, right?

It's like someone assuming a car called a Jaguar means the creators think the car is actually a cat.

I think a Fallout game set immediately after the Great War would be interesting. Like, PROPER survival of the few who survived the initial onslaught. I mean, some survived outside the vaults. A game following the formation and development of the gangs in the Boneyard would be cool (and no, I don't like the notion that a game set there would be The Walking Dead because of the zombies/ghouls).

Honestly, I think this is as close as you probably can come.

 

[AmericanRed]

"They join because it is becoming part of a larger rebuilding effort."

Who said so? A guy over the radio claiming to be the leader of a faction on the other side of the country that they don't even know if it's real or not?

 

[CT Phipps]

"They join because it is becoming part of a larger rebuilding effort."

Who said so? A guy over the radio claiming to be the leader of a faction on the other side of the country that they don't even know if it's real or not?

Your argument basically implies that communication doesn't work.

*finger wag*

Why are you talking on the internet then if you don't believe people are real.

 

[Hassknecht]

It's abandoning their post when they make no effort to contact any other Americans for 100 years. As for the rebuilding efforts, the BOS have been attempting to do so. The BOS have been working to confiscate and dismantle dangerous technology the entire time. There's also Fallout: Tactics.

Removing technology is just a shitty way to "save" the world.

The whole "BoS are basically luddites" thing came later, there's not really anything that shows that they were that way in Fallout 1. When they decided to get out of their bunker they just became another normal faction in the region, they didn't take command or anything.

They weren't bickering at all since Roger Maxson is personally in charge of the group. This is when the Brotherhood is united and strong.

The BoS had to transition from "normal military deserters" to "pseudo monastic order". That doesn't happen that fast, it takes a generation or so.

Also, people are intelligent enough to know the Brotherhood of Steel functions as identical to a modern mechanized military, right? They're not idiots enough to forget the "Great Chain" is just a description of how the chain of command functions and that it works as a advanced eductaed force--that the people who call them feudalists and so on are the idiots, right?

But they don't work as a modern mechaniced military. They're much closer to the military orders of the crusades in style. Fallout 1 introduced them that way for the rule of cool, to have a high tech society that is nonetheless strange to our modern view to show how much the world changed. Fallout 76 forces that change to happen at a very early stage in their history and makes it a thing that can be transfered via radio. It takes away from the strangeness of the BoS.

Your argument basically implies that communication doesn't work.

*finger wag*

Why are you talking on the internet then if you don't believe people are real.

Well, I certainly don't start to follow some dudes on the Internet telling me to paint shit on my armor and wasting technology for no good reason.
Of course communication works. But come on, the Brotherhood is a strange society, does it really not strike you as odd that their very specific ways can just travel via radio?

 

[CT Phipps]

Well the US army has patches, sigils, and heraldry.

I don't see the Brotherhood of Steel any different.

It's a replacement organization for the failed US military to join. Given the other option is to become a bunch of raiders with no honor or purpose, I can understand why they do it.

 

[CerberusGate]

You're making a joke right? You know the war with the NCR is a retcon AFTER the events of Fallout 3. Also, they stopped talking with the East Coast Brotherhood during this time.

Try again.

Actually Van Buren did establish a war between the BOS and NCR but as NV is later in the timeline, all they can do is reference the aftermath (devaluation of the NCR currency, the BoS becoming barely surviving isolationists, NCR having salvaged PA etc). Plus Van Buren is not completely wiped from canon as some of its materials are referenced and used by NV along with 3, unlike PoS.

Therefore, try again.

Plus the satelite radio would have been useful for the main BoS circa 2 as they would have records of the Enclave's attempts to resurface post-War.

except that doesn't explain it either. fallut wasn't much of a brand before bethesda whored it out. it was a pretty niche title that the gaming community at large wasn;t really aware of. so they didn't buy it for brand recognition and they didn't buy to make fallout game so this begs the queston... why? and thst's the only question really. why are they so fucking bad at making fallout games? it shouldn't be that hard.

What I meant by brand recognition is how recognisable the BoS are in video game pop culture.

Sadly when you mention Fallout, people will think of the things Bethesda has whored out (Nuka Cola, T-45d etc), so the BoS is of no exception. They are 'iconic' to the franchise so having them around acts as a drawing factor for fans of the BoS especially among the mainstream audiences.

EDIT:

Make the WV BoS a complete mockery, a bunch of dudes silkscreening a shoddy logo on their jammies to cosplay post-apocalyptic knights they heard about over the radio. That would have been funny.

That would work tbh. A faction labelling themselves as a BoS chapter but getting their faction's ideals and SOP wrong due to misintepretation of the tranmissions. They still follow these things as doing so allows them to hold onto some sembelance of uniformed purpose lost after the bombs fell.

 

[R.Graves]

Actually Van Buren did establish a war between the BOS and NCR but as NV is later in the timeline, all they can do is reference the aftermath (devaluation of the NCR currency, the BoS becoming barely surviving isolationists, NCR having salvaged PA etc). Plus Van Buren is not completely wiped from canon as some of its materials are referenced and used by NV along with 3, unlike PoS.

Therefore, try again

also NV was originally gonna be set earlier in the timeline (closer to 2) but bethesda demanded it be set after 3 in the middle of development so yeah.... kind of bethesda's fault again.

 

[Risewild]

Yes, which is why they'd follow Maxson as the highest ranking leadership given the Enclave abandoned them.

Maxson had no ranking. He was a damn deserter, the type the USA military would shoot at sight if he tried to come by and order them... They would even probably just shoot him if they saw him walking around. Because deserters commit treason. Treason is a death penalty sentence.

Again, the Enclave has no interest in contacting them and doesn't. Because the Enclave doesn't care about any but their small group. Remember they don't even want to recruit the vaults, they just want their own tiny group of descendants.

How do you know this? It's not mentioned in game or anywhere else. And what do you mean about their small group? Weren't they in contact with the oil rig? I mean, if the BoS could use a satellite to communicate, the Enclave could too. Also the USA Army would be seen as part of the Enclave, because the Enclave was the shadow government of the USA, so it had the highest ranking politicians and even generals. You know, the people that the USA armed forces would have to answer to and obey.
The vaults are different, the Vaults for the Enclave was just to experiment, test subjects. But the Army was part of the Enclave if the Enclave ever gave the command. Because the army answers to the people in the Enclave.

Because the United States leadership had committed crimes against humanity and abandoned their posts (thus forfeiting their positions) plus destroyed the country. Your argument functions if dictatorships have never suffered coups, civil wars, rebellions, or crisises in leadership.

Which is bullshit given the number of times people tried to kill Hitler. Authoritarian regimes are always less stable than democracies.

Maxson didn't deserted because the USA leadership abandoned their posts. Also he didn't deserted because the leadership destroyed the country. From where are you pulling such load of lies from?
He deserted before the bombs fell, before the country was destroyed. He deserted because he saw the things being done in Mariposa and realized that the whole military system of "Don't ask questions. Obey your superiors!" was wrong. He decided to get away from that system. He wouldn't be trying to contact people in that system. The only people he contacted was the government, saying that he and those who followed him had deserted and he was waiting to be arrested. But never got a reply and then the bombs fell.
He hated the military, he wouldn't be contacting the army at all, he would be making his own institution. Not going back to recruit army people on the other side of the country.

Because the leader of the Appalachian military forces was Roger Maxson's ex-girlfriend and best friend. They were previously in the same squad and served together. The wiki entry understates their relationship.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Elizabeth_Taggerdy

Which is another shitty lore added by Fallout 76. None of that was mentioned before. It was just shoehorned into lore, like everything else in fallout 76. Also if he liked her, he wouldn't contact her at all, by contacting her he would risk making her a traitor too. Which would be bad for her.
Maxson choose to isolate himself and his group, not to start contacting ex-girlfriends .
Also there is no way a lieutenant would be the "leader of the Appalachian military forces". That's even lower than a captain (which would also not be a leader of the entire military forces in a region).

 

[CT Phipps]

You can't desert a government which has ceased to exist.

also NV was originally gonna be set earlier in the timeline (closer to 2) but bethesda demanded it be set after 3 in the middle of development so yeah.... kind of bethesda's fault again.

Funny fact, Fallout 3 was originally set 20 years after the apocalypse but they were forced to make it 200 years later so it could be a sequel to Fallout 1 and 2 (as well as include the BOS, Super Mutants, and Enclave).

Actually Van Buren did establish a war between the BOS and NCR but as NV is later in the timeline, all they can do is reference the aftermath (devaluation of the NCR currency, the BoS becoming barely surviving isolationists, NCR having salvaged PA etc). Plus Van Buren is not completely wiped from canon as some of its materials are referenced and used by NV along with 3, unlike PoS.

Therefore, try again.

Van Buren is wonderful but never published so that doesn't make sense as an argument. The BoS and NCR war didn't happen until the events of New Vegas canonized it. Besides, it's not like all the elements of Van Buren are canonical anyway with NV.

They changed Caesar's Legion and Joshua Graham both to better fit their new ideas. I also think we would have known about a space station nuking Nevada, so clearly that didn't happen.

Plus the satelite radio would have been useful for the main BoS circa 2 as they would have records of the Enclave's attempts to resurface post-War.

Honestly, I was really disappointed with the Appalachian Enclave. They're bigger idiots than the Hubologists.

The Appallachian BOS also got totally wiped out before they encountered them.

 

[Hassknecht]

You can't desert a government which has ceased to exist.

They deserted before the government ceased to exist, you absolute donut.

 

[CT Phipps]

How do you know this? It's not mentioned in game or anywhere else.

Dick Richardson openly tells you about the Enclave's desire to exterminate all life other than themselves and the Vaults were only to benefit the Enclave's personnel. It's a longstanding plan. While the Enclave colonizing space has never been canonized, it's also been hinted at in canon.

And what do you mean about their small group? Weren't they in contact with the oil rig? I mean, if the BoS could use a satellite to communicate, the Enclave could too. Also the USA Army would be seen as part of the Enclave, because the Enclave was the shadow government of the USA, so it had the highest ranking politicians and even generals. You know, the people that the USA armed forces would have to answer to and obey.

MODUS actually talks about the Enclave being seperate from the United States government as a cabal. The Whitespring Enclave did actually have a satellite connection to the Oil Rig and communicated with them until it was knocked out. That's when the Secretary of Education declared himself the President, claiming they were dead, and ordered them to start another nuclear war with China. The Joint Chief of Staff refused and was killed by the President, who appointed another he kept drugged up. The Generals wanted to contact the rest of the US military but the President refused until they destroyed China completely.

In the end, it led to a coup against him and MODUS eliminating all of them.

The vaults are different, the Vaults for the Enclave was just to experiment, test subjects. But the Army was part of the Enclave if the Enclave ever gave the command. Because the army answers to the people in the Enclave.

No, the army is not. The army is a tool of the Enclave. Useless resource hogs that were all mutated by FEV and radiation when they didn't get to safety. They deserve to die for the crime of being inhuman.

Maxson didn't deserted because the USA leadership abandoned their posts. Also he didn't deserted because the leadership destroyed the country. From where are you pulling such load of lies from?

The Enclave has done both so it's not like they have any authority or legitimacy remaining. Maxson deserting because of their human experimentation doesn't chaneg these facts.

He deserted before the bombs fell, before the country was destroyed. He deserted because he saw the things being done in Mariposa and realized that the whole military system of "Don't ask questions. Obey your superiors!" was wrong. He decided to get away from that system. He wouldn't be trying to contact people in that system. The only people he contacted was the government, saying that he and those who followed him had deserted and he was waiting to be arrested. But never got a reply and then the bombs fell.

Except we know he did because he gathered the families and other recruits as well as the Marisposa deserters.

He hated the military, he wouldn't be contacting the army at all, he would be making his own institution. Not going back to recruit army people on the other side of the country.

Incorrect.

Which is another shitty lore added by Fallout 76. None of that was mentioned before. It was just shoehorned into lore, like everything else in fallout 76. Also if he liked her, he wouldn't contact her at all, by contacting her he would risk making her a traitor too. Which would be bad for her.

You can't be a traitor to a government that doesn't survive.

Also, Fallout 2 added huge amounts of retcons so retcons by themselves are not bad.

Because Fallout 2 is a much much better game than Fallout 1.

Maxson choose to isolate himself and his group, not to start contacting ex-girlfriends .
Also there is no way a lieutenant would be the "leader of the Appalachian military forces". That's even lower than a captain (which would also not be a leader of the entire military forces in a region).

Maxson created a codex which says they're going to save the world and prevent another apocalypse. You are ignoring lore established in Fallout 1 and 2. They also seized military assets and material (bunkers, power armor, weapons). So, you're making up stuff because of course they will be used.

 

[CT Phipps]

They deserted before the government ceased to exist, you absolute donut.

And were never tried or removed of their posts. Anyway, the Apallachian BOS chose to side with him over the nonexistent US government and follow the Codex. Mostly because it makes sense. The BOS are the only hope for humanity.