Tim Cain interview on Matt Chat, part 2

[Ausir]

- I'd like to order steak please.
- Here's some excellent fish for you.
- But I ordered steak, not fish!
- Actually, this meal was cooked by the people who used to make the steak you loved here. What's there to complain about?
- Sure, the old cooks might be back, and their fish tastes better than the fish I was served here before, but it's still not much of a steak.

 

[Urban Needles]

The fish hasn't been fully cooked yet. if you don't like the looks of it when its in front of your face don't buy it.

Become a majority shareholder and make those cooks serve steak again.

 

[Per]

But people keep coming by our steak clubhouse and saying we're stupid for not embracing fish.

 

[Bimmy]

When fallout arrived on shelves rpg gamers were few.
I think final fantasy VII introduced rpg (at least Jrpg) to the masses.
And at psx\ps2 point gaming in general started to appear cool
halo, cod and xbox live created the console fps thingy
many gamers never played F\F2 and the majority of those who tried the older games (even after F3) loved em better than F3. sadly there are players that are just unable to play 2D games with old graphic so they never really tried the game for longer than 10 mins.

IMO saying that F3 is an improvement or evolution over F\F2 is plain BS
cause F3 gameplay is not a new gameplay, is simply TES gameplay and is not new or fresh at all. (look at daggerfall)

about Secret of Mana... that is actually seikendensetsu2, to play seiken3 you need a rom and a fan made eng patch.

 

[Urban Needles]

I wouldn't call it "your" steak house although you did write an awesome walkthrough. What options do you really have you can eat fish, learn to make your own steak or go hungry.

 

[Ausir]

The steak *clubhouse* Per is referring to is NMA, not Fallout.

The fish hasn't been fully cooked yet. if you don't like the looks of it when its in front of your face don't buy it.

Become a majority shareholder and make those cooks serve steak again.

I'm pretty sure I'll like this fish too. But it still won't be steak, even if the dish is sold under the same name. Still, I liked other the food prepared by these cooks too, even if it's not as good as the steak they used to make.

 

[x'il]

You ask for steak, I bring you fish. You say that you think steak is better than fish. I say that fish is much more popular than steak so obviously it's better. You say that no matter how good the fish is it can't be better at being steak than the actual steak we used to serve. I say that's just your perception and you're entitled to it but you should accept that fish is the future and that's good. You begin to say something but I stab you in the eye with a fork and run into the kitchen.

A very nice analogy, sig material, but damn Crni Vuk beat me to it.

 

[Lexx]

This thread made me clear, that even if you explain something with the best analogy possible, people will not understand it.

 

[AskWazzup]

Or alternatively: Not everyone judged the game by the same criteria... so different people formed different opinions. You may not like the game, that's cool, but there's no need to assume that all the people who did like it only did so because they were duped by marketing. It could just be that they approached the game with different expectations, or that they just like different things to you.

What are those criteria? Now i'm not saying that you cannot enjoy the game, but how can one claim that it's good, when it lacks in so many important, not some minor, aspects of it's genere?

As for the "duping" part - i'm not claiming that people were duped, they made a concious effort, but the marketing (which is not only promotion) wouldn't be there if it wasn't effective. Looking at their marketing campaign, it's clear that the marketing departament had a good deal work put in, in how the game would be percieved by the masses.

That's true of everything, not least the original Fallouts. Those games have so many flaws and holes in them you could waste a lifetime trying to categorize and quantify them. That fact is, they rock despite those things. I don't think FO3 is any different in that respect.

Originals are not perfect, sure, but the difference here is that their shortcomings (also taking into account the time they were made) are minor as opposed to Fallout 3. Good writing isn't some interface decoration that you can change with a mod, it's either there, or not.

 

[Kyuu]

The point is, whatever you think of the fish, people should stop coming around the Steak Clubhouse and demanding that we give up our archaic steak love to join the new, fabulous Fish Society.

We have no issue with fish, we just want more of the steak we fell in love with. And we fervently wish people would stop packaging fish as steak, shoving it in our faces and insisting that not only is it steak, but it's better steak, when we can clearly see that it's fish (and even then it's Wal-Mart brand fish sticks dressed up as caviar, in my opinion).

Most of us are not cooks, and we have our own lives and other interests, activities, and whatnot that prevent us from raising the capitol and talent to open our own steakhouse and start producing our own steaks. To insist that we do so or shut up is absurd.

Damn... I need a good New York Strip now...

 

[SharkClub]

crappy interface

How exactly was the interface "crappy"? Sure it was upgraded in Fallout 2, but for the first game it was pretty much fine except for not being able to move NPCs.

And you guys are making me hella hungry for steak.

 

[K.C. Cool]

Bethesda is good at making money by selling their games, not by making good games.

Say what you want about Bethesda, they know how to market their games. I was really excited when Oblivion came out, for the first half of the game the hype kept the game afloat, then slowly I came to the realization that they game was just bad. I fell for the hype, I listened to reviewers, friends, and watched the pre-release, videos. I fell for it.

Personally, if I ever start a game business I'm not going to make my games the primary form of profit. I imagine running a second business doing whatever to fund my game development instead so I wont design my games around money rather than fun.

 

[Cold Zer0]

I don't like this new fish. Hell, I don't like fish in general. I tried masquerading the taste with so much steak sauce but it didn't help. It still stank of fish.

I wish master chef Tim could take charge of a kitchen one more time. I miss my stake

 

[choconutjoe]

What are those criteria? Now i'm not saying that you cannot enjoy the game, but how can one claim that it's good, when it lacks in so many important, not some minor, aspects of it's genere?

Saying that a game lacks 'aspects of it's genre' just means is that the game is different to what came before (see my apples and oranges anaolgy...).

As for the "duping" part - i'm not claiming that people were duped, they made a concious effort, but the marketing (which is not only promotion) wouldn't be there if it wasn't effective. Looking at their marketing campaign, it's clear that the marketing departament had a good deal work put in, in how the game would be percieved by the masses.

Ok, maybe I misinterpreted your original comment as being more condescending that it really was.

Originals are not perfect, sure, but the difference here is that their shortcomings (also taking into account the time they were made) are minor as opposed to Fallout 3. Good writing isn't some interface decoration that you can change with a mod, it's either there, or not.

So the main quest in FO3 has a rubbish story. The game has many other aspects which I enjoyed. maybe you didn't like those things either, that's fine, I was really just objecting to the idea that a person who likes FO3 must be in some way 'wrong'. Although from what you say I may have misinterpreted your original comment anyway.

How exactly was the interface "crappy"? Sure it was upgraded in Fallout 2, but for the first game it was pretty much fine except for not being able to move NPCs.

To me it seems painfully long-winded and unintuitive in comparison to (for example) infinity engine games , which arrived not long after. I guess that's really just a matter of opinion though.

The point is, whatever you think of the fish, people should stop coming around the Steak Clubhouse and demanding that we give up our archaic steak love to join the new, fabulous Fish Society.

You ask for steak, I bring you fish. You say that you think steak is better than fish. I say that fish is much more popular than steak so obviously it's better. You say that no matter how good the fish is it can't be better at being steak than the actual steak we used to serve. I say that's just your perception and you're entitled to it but you should accept that fish is the future and that's good. You begin to say something but I stab you in the eye with a fork and run into the kitchen.

But people keep coming by our steak clubhouse and saying we're stupid for not embracing fish.

I don't know if these comments are aimed at me or NiRv4n4, but I'll respond anyway. It certainly wasn't my intention to criticize people for not liking FO3. I just objected to what I thought was someone deriding my personal taste as being nothing more than a product of corporate trickery.

 

[Crni Vuk]

This thread made me clear, that even if you explain something with the best analogy possible, people will not understand it.

Well its like with anything else of course. You can explain it to them. But you cant understand it for them.

If people would just realise that actually most around here dont have the intention to spoil the fun they have with Fallout 3 some here just have the feeling the "old" games are the better Fallout games ~ what a surprise ... . But why some come over here registering and trying to explain how Fallout 3 is inherently the better game cause it literaly sold more copies is beyond my head. Thats something I cant understand.

I sometimes thingk its like the relation between Scientology and Germany where inside the Scientology group they would refer to Germany as "the frontline" and people working there are considered heros cause Germany in general disslikes Scientology as anticonstitutional group/party which makes it very hard for them to operate here. Maybe the people which register here at NMA see the NMA community as a "front" that has to be educated

 

[Aphyosis]

What are those criteria? Now i'm not saying that you cannot enjoy the game, but how can one claim that it's good, when it lacks in so many important, not some minor, aspects of it's genere?

Saying that a game lacks 'aspects of it's genre' just means is that the game is different to what came before (see my apples and oranges anaolgy...).

So, if you got a FPS where all you did was race a rally car, would you say its a FPS that's "Different than what came before"?

Being different from what came before is fine, but every genre has a certain aspect that's pertinent to it. A FPS requires gunplay, racing games require racing, etc etc.

If its missing these aspects, it ceases to be that genre. It's not "Different". In Fallout 3's case, its a FPS with TEDIOUS RPG connections. Not a RPG. This is because it misses these vital aspects of the genre.

 

[.Pixote.]

I just objected to what I thought was someone deriding my personal taste as being nothing more than a product of corporate trickery.

So it goes to say that someone who considers Britney Spears to be of a greater importance than Beethoven, can not under any circumstances be wrong…even though they might be completely ignorant of the deeper aspects of music. The youth of today consider all things to be of equal status; regardless of the facts…what matters to them are opinions not the facts. “Does my bum look big in this”…

 

[Crni Vuk]

Saying that a game lacks 'aspects of it's genre' just means is that the game is different to what came before (see my apples and oranges anaolgy...)..

Thats a vast underestatement. Fallout 3 was not just something different. It had huge flaws beeing almost broken on certain platforms ~ bugs on the console ? So much to stability. What about its DLCs ? So much to quality.

Fallout 3 lacked much in inteligent dialogues and most important in coherent writing. How many times has one to bring up the example of the Vault Dvellers Father and his atrocious dialogues. The companinions which refuse to go in to the purifier ~ even when immune to radiation. Or the Enclave President dialogue which wasnt any actualy. Not to mention that many of the quests particularly the main quest have no real diversity in it. 200 + different endings ? May ass. And to say that Fallout 3 was sold as a high budged RPG product by Bethesda with the intention of beeing a next-generation title comparable with Mass Effect or Dragon Age (from quality and content). Yet the engine is outdated, the animations worse then 10 year old Jedy Outcast II and the shooter combat. Well you either like it or you hate it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svWH0f8wo-g&feature=related[/youtube]

Now regardless if Fallout 3 is close to the past games or not. But saying that a RPG doesnt need "good" writting is like to claim a shooter doesnt need "good" first person combat.

 

[4too]

The Smart Market-eering Of Fish

The Smart Market-eering Of Fish



B-Soft

Notice the use of a cheddar substitute to lure the cheese lover and to counter point the oozing tartar laced condiment!

B-oware

It's a GOTY Contender!
A blob of traditional *sauce* READY to consummate the romantic tomato!


Let me know if the battered and re-fried --> (?) fish (?) <--- is whole or just commercially regurgitated Fish Parts (tm)!!

Hey, if I get a collector's "addition" I get a toy! Just like a Mickey D Happy Meal!!!!

Yes, any content can be a winner with this smart money market-eering!

You too can be a wiener!

Hot dog!




4too

 

[.Pixote.]

Re: The Smart Market-eering Of Fish

Notice the use of a cheddar substitute to lure the cheese lover and to counter point the oozing tartar laced condiment!

You make it sound so sexy….