Todd at DICE09, on Making Fallout 3

Morbus

Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
It's 25 minutes of Todd Howard, Bethesda's well known and loved Executive Producer, speaking about how they made Fallout 3, in his presentation at this year's DICE Summit. So here they are, divided in three parts:

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If you're wondering, DICE stands for "Design, Innovate, Communicate, Entertain"...

Thanks Dominus for the heads-up.
 
I kind of worry more about the industry's health when I see this. Design, Innovate, Communicate, Entertain. And Todd's the EP of a game made by a company with no decent game designers (otherwise they'd be able to conceive an RPG without dungeons/grinding, right?), that doesn't innovate (seriously, when you play Oblivion right next to daggerfall, you can see how much of a clone it actually is, only without the best things about it... Even the fucking jump key!!!), like, AT ALL, that communicates through constant combat and crappy writting and hole-filled plotlines, and that produces games that can only entertain the most braindead of gamers, because, seriously, SERIOUSLY!|!!! Who the hell has the time and patience to ENDURE countless hours of mindless boring combat throught nearly similar dungeons against nearly similar and equally soulless enemies that give you the same loot over and over again, that you only need to replace the ammo and weapons you spent while killing them, ammo and weapons you wouldn't need IN THE FIRST PLACE if you didn't go in shooting! Seriously, what kind of life does the average gamer lead?! Where do they find the strength to find Fallout 3 entertaining (let alone all the other things DICE's about).

This makes my little monkey sad.

:EDIT:
The central capital washington, near the capitol and that was particularly disappoint/boring. The mind boggles. There's just SO MUCH combat in that tiny are, you got foxholes, you got behemoths inside buildings, these just enormous buildings completey EMPTY of anything interesting, only combat, combat combat. Seriously. I was so buffed up with godmode (since vats, after level 20, is a godmode itself, only a lot slower - I could SERIOUSLY kill a whole lot of enemies, like 20 or something, at the first try, in a single session of vats, because of the grim reaper's sprint and because of the immortality when in vats) and it still took me two hours to EXPLORE (not kill everything, just see) the whole area. And they still feel the need to release stupid DLCs that are all about combat.

Well, at least we know they are doing what they do best, because, seriously, if they'd have done a true fallout game (with heavy dialogs, descriptions for everything and all), boy would they have come short on that.
 
Morbus said:
Who the hell has the time and patience to ENDURE countless hours of mindless boring combat throught nearly similar dungeons against nearly similar and equally soulless enemies that give you the same loot over and over again, that you only need to replace the ammo and weapons you spent while killing them, ammo and weapons you wouldn't need IN THE FIRST PLACE if you didn't go in shooting!

These are my thoughts exactly regarding Oblivion and other games of the same ilk. This is my biggest fear for current trends of game design. I don't have to to waste playing shitty games. My second fear for games is shitty DRM. ;)

I did, however, find the videos interesting regarding their philosophies though I would rather see a video by someone of equivalence at Bioware.
 
Public said:
25 minutes with Todd talking?

No thanks...
I'm going to watch as much as I can stand but keep in mind that we already have reports about the interview so there really shouldn't be any new info.

EDIT2:
Legend:
Text within () are my comments
Text within [] are Todd's comments, usually paraphrased

EDIT:
BS about Fallout not selling well (this part was quoted before)
The rediculous argument about boardgames and tables (quoted before)
Bethesda Mission: Excellent People. Excellent Games. (ego trip)
Excellent People
1. There is no substitute for self-reliance
2. Culture of quallity (clearly lacking from Bethesda)
3. Low 'Asshole Quotient' (proven wrong by Todd and Pete)
Excellent Games
1. Great games are played, not made (already quoted but this is where he talks about how worthless design documents and ideas are)
2. Keep it simple
3. Define the experience [don't do this by a list of bullet points, do it by the experience you want the player to have] (that makes no fucking sense)
Your plan is not as important as your culture (BS, both are equally important)
Your ideas are not as important as your excecution (if only they followed through on this claim in their own games)
3. Define the Experience
The new Power Armor was one of the first images they made and is apparently really important
He claims they went back and played the old games (demonstratably untrue as applying to the whole team)
He talks about how violent it was
Talks about reading old reviews (already quoted and talked about) and goes on to say that you can look at old reviews of Arena and black out mentions of the name and it could apply to any TES game (what a thing to brag about, how innovative...)
He talks about reinventing the vaultsuit and the pipboy
He wanted to make looking at stats entertaining with the pipboy (failure)
Talks about wanting to make VATS always fun even if it's repetive (failure)
Shows some pretty cool concept art (really a story board) that shows what they thought VATS would be
2. Keep it Simple
Internal: Doing something really well takes time, more time than you probably have (justifying crappy design I guess)
External: The player won't appreciate or understand your complicated idea (certainly not if it's not done well but I think that complex games prove this argument wrong)
We can do anything, we just can't do everything
Make marketing part of your process [talks about bouncing ideas off of Pete to hear how consumers will respond to them] (already quoted and not a part of good game design)
Make marketing part of your process (this is business advice, not good design advice, what he talks about here is all marketing stuff and really has jack to do with game design)
1. Great Games are Played, not Made
5 months of art team playing the game not making art
Talks about editing to improve the game and about removing half of DC in order to make it work
Admitting your mistakes is essential (also something they fail to do, at least not until they are marketing for their next game)
4 levels of player experience
1. Learn [how do you make that fun? He claims that learning tends to not be fun]
2. Play [want to just play and have fun]
3. Challenge [mastered skills, people like to win (winning has no worth without losing)]
4. Surprise
Repeat [claims that too many developers focus on numbers 3&4 and sites Nintendo as doing it well by focusing on 1&2 (which is true, the problem is that they tend to put little focus on 3)]
Growing company as a publisher with a picture with the caption "Lost in Translation" and calls the dialogue salty
"Nerd Rage perk"
Translator:
The choice of the German term hinges mainly on what sort of nerd characteristics are dominant with the nerds in the game. Is it their profound geek-like knowledge of all things computer and technical? Or is it their boringness and tendency towards social exclusion? If there is one trait more dominant than the other, it would help to know. [giggling audience, not sure why...]
"You'll see plenty of my adult-sized stones when I'm pissing on your grave."
Translator:
What are adult-sized stones? [more giggling]
Reply: This means testicles. Large, adult-sized testitcles, as compred to the smaller testicles of a child. [more giggling] (this was apparently for laughs and demonstrating translation difficulties but it really doesn't add anything of any value as he fails to discuss solutions)
Layers of game from outside in:
Bugs and Polish (failure)
Game Balance [very small] (failure)
Amazing Game
Perfect Game (not sure what the hell this or the previous one were about)
Shows three images with the first two circles becoming smaller (balance disappearing)
Shows a picture of the PS3 with huge first circle, tiny others then shows the same as the last in previous slide
He talks about Blizzard drilling to the center of the circle by still releasing patches to improve their older games (too bad Bethesda doesn't put in this kind of effort...)
He says that they chart their progress on these circles and displays a crappy graph which the line keeps going past the top of the graph [talks about how you need to keep going and improving the game (they don't do this, as is clear by their lack of patches)]

The amount of copyrighted material used is rediculous, he's lucky he didn't get sued over it.
 
Wow, sounds like some nerd talking to other nerds and laughing from their nerdy jokes.

And he thinks releasing patches for old games is a bad thing? Also, what was all about that circle thing?

BTW- thanks Garlic! You saved my ears from an internal bleeding.
 
How dares Blizzard, still supporting their older titles.

Don't they know the rule: just make one or two patcher and then leave the rest to the gamers.
If they want bugs removed from the game they should do it themselves, if you do it for them they become lazy.
 
Morbus said:
... Seriously, what kind of life does the average gamer lead?! Where do they find the strength to find Fallout 3 entertaining (let alone all the other things DICE's about).
I dont think the average gamer is really stupid.

I also think its not that gamers demand such kind of shallow games Bethesda and other companies offer to them but that its more like the companies telling the gamers they have to like it. Youre not "cool" if you dont buy this awesome games with imershunz and inowashion. I mean by just looking at the immense effort they put in "hype" and the false promises out of it its no surprise so many buy the games they make. Even I thought that Oblivion would have been a real inovation by watching their promo videos and reading about the features they promised.



What I dont understand though how a company can do games without any real concept plans and well thought out design documents.

I mean what happens in the end can be seen with both Oblivion and Fallout 3. And with Fallout 3 even more so. Many plot holes in the ending and story could have been easily avoided by well done recordings of the project and a worked out concept phase before you start programming. Thats what they are there for.

If Blizzard is doing good games or not is a different question since everyone has a different taste. But its not arguable that games from Blizzard have a certain quality when it comes to the content and stability of their games. They do not hesitate to scrap a whole project and start it all over again if the game does not meet their criteria in quality.

With Bethesda its more that a game has to be released for example before christmas at all costs. They also started working with almost their whole team on DLCs just shortly before the game was finished instead on working on patches which is just disgusting in my eyes and shows what is important for Bethesda, not the quality of their product but the profit out of it.

I somewhat are even inclined to believe they on purpose did not made the game open ended to release it later with a "DLC". I Would really not be surprised about that.
 
This was a painful watch...I don't really hate Todd Howard and Bethesda but when I listen to him talk about his studio and the design philosophy and compare to the actual result...


Excellent people = excellent games

Right...What does Fallout 3 tell about the people working at Bethesda then ?
 
DICE stands for "Design, Innovate, Communicate, Entertain".

Well, by there own admission, Bethesda don't really do a design phase, they just muck about and see what they think works.

Bethesda haven't done anything innovative in one of their games since... come to think of it they never really have done naything innovative. Not since there current empolyees joined the payroll.

Bethesda tend not to communicate with the people playing there games quite as much as other developers.

Since Morrowind the most entertaining things in every Bethesda game have been things added to the game by the modding community.

So, given that Bethesda fail to Design, Innovate, Communicate or Entertain, how the hell did they get into the DICE summit?
 
They either used magic or a lot of money and business muscle.

Man, a lot of those soundbites make literally no sense at all. One must wonder how they came about and what he was smoking at the time.
 
I'm listening to "Any Colour You Like" by Pink Floyd and when I started watching him moving around talking I had to stop the video.

Like a bad trip. :crazy: He talks a lot but says nothing!
 
MrBumble said:
This was a painful watch...I don't really hate Todd Howard and Bethesda but when I listen to him talk about his studio and the design philosophy and compare to the actual result...


Excellent people = excellent games

Right...What does Fallout 3 tell about the people working at Bethesda then ?
I have to somewhat agree all bias aside its somewhat hard to not get some antypathy against him when you hear Todd talk about his games.
 
Make dumb games and movies, get people to play/watch them, hope that people get dumber as a result, lowering the bar each time. The dumb-down is intentional.

Look at all the Santa Claus stories the establishment puts out through the media, full of holes and inconsistencies which completely defy any logic or law of physics, and yet the vast majority believes them. Every time you believe it, you lose IQ points.
 
Crni Vuk said:
What I dont understand though how a company can do games without any real concept plans and well thought out design documents.

Really, how can anyone design something moderately complex without setting a planning phase? I just can't visualize it. Maybe if they're all Einstein-level IQs or something... if you try to design the structure of a database, for example, and if you didn't thought in advance the tables, domains, relations, etc, you're very likely to end up with a messy thing that you'll have to fix all the time... that's with something simple as a DB... now with a multiplatform game as FO3 it would be exponentially impossible to end up with a satisfying and adecuate product. Now I understand... :roll:

Ixyroth said:
Make dumb games and movies, get people to play/watch them, hope that people get dumber as a result, lowering the bar each time. The dumb-down is intentional.

Yeah, it's like that movie, "Idiocracy". Or should I say "documentary"? Scaaaary! :?
 
Alphadrop said:
They either used magic or a lot of money and business muscle.

Nope, I think FO3 is a good example of how business from satisfying market needs turns to shaping market needs through consolidation. This is the next level of marketing, it has been done before (with music industry, for example, were "stars" are being "made" by labels out of virtually nothing), it now happens at the games market. Advances in the marketing department of psychology in recent 10-15 years also help a lot. After a consolidation which has happened during last years game "labels" got powerful enough to create a demand for the repetitive sequels of mediocre games they produce - they don't need to invent something new, no need to innovate at all and risk, just sell the same old crap over and over again and brainwash gamers into thinking that this is the best they could ever get, that "isometric games are things of the past" and so on (that didn't appear out of nowhere, after all). In the end you've got a constant stream of mediocrity where you can't tell a difference between products A and B, they are just there to create some illusion of choice... like FO3/GTA4/Farcry2, like Britney Spears/Christyna Aquilera/Beyonce or whatever else they sell you.
 
Stopped watching after he started complaining about LBP selling too well. What's the point to watch the rest?
 
Ausdoerrt, with LBP, did he mean Little Big Planet?

What... what the hell is that all about?

He is pissed because a game in a completely different genre or concept wise sells better than what he and his frat buddies glued together?
 
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