Todd at DICE09, on Making Fallout 3

[Szeder]

How soaked this presentation is with money. Simply, all the points her raises are connected with money in some way or other.

Just think, how different would it be to go back in time and make Black Isle do something similar after Fallout 1. The atmosphere, the sense of intelligence, the sense of artistic impressions.

Todd Howard, I hate you.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Around the same time as Fallout, Final Fantasy VII was a mainstream game that sold extremely well. Pokemon Red/Blue was a mainstream game that sold extremely well. Diablo was a mainstream game that sold well. Fallout was a niche game that didn't sell that well. It's pretty easy to see where he's coming from when you consider the fact that Bethesda is in the business of making mainstream games that sell well.

For Interplay it did sold pretty well.

What we are talking here about are sematics, niche game, block buster title. Thats all not important if you consider what the game want(ed) to achieve.

I can only repeat my self. If the game would have sold "not well" either for a niche game or anything else (I personaly do not believe in this niche thing anyway) there would not have been several sequels, spin-offs and a company buying the IP to release another game. I cant name many games that still have a big value and such a strong fan-base after aprox. 15 years. Not bad for a game that "sold bad".

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Meh, the usual Bethesda propaganda; They 'saved' the Fallout franchise from obscurity.

God bless them.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Thats how they like to present them self. Like the saviour of the Fallout franchise as noble knight in shining armor helping the Fallout to make the step in the next age of next-gen gaming and immersive gameplay.

Thx god I am glad about people stoped at least to come in here and repeat the same "you should thank Bethesda for F3" statements

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It might be an American thing. He's feigning jealousy because LBP cleaned up at the awards show. It's a very common sort of self-deprecating humor.

American's aren't exactly known for self-deprecating humour, or irony.

That doesn't make much sense to me. If a game sells quite well, then it is not a niche game by definition. You could say that it sold well relative to other niche PC exclusives. But what Howard said is perfectly fine, if a bit redundant. It is more of a description of reality than a slight against Fallout.

Take replica sports kits. A National team replica shirt not only appeals to sports fans and patriots but if the team are doing well, then also to trendies. It's a blockbuster release but the market for a local club shirt is much more limited, even if every fan of that club buys a shirt you are looking at tiny percentage of the sales of the national kit. If the majority of a club's fans buy a shirt it's sold well while still remaining niche.

 

[iridium_ionizer]

Look at all the Santa Claus stories the establishment puts out through the media, full of holes and inconsistencies which completely defy any logic or law of physics, and yet the vast majority believes them. Every time you believe it, you lose IQ points.

Usually kids somewhere between ages 7-10 figure out that Santa Claus is not real. Fallout 3 is presumably selling well to 18 - 35 demographic (based on the fact its rated M for mature by the ESRB and similar bodies). Do you think these people will wake up one day and realize that Fallout 3 isn't as good as they thought it was? Maybe when Bethesda's PR tells them.

 

[hvkasteren]

Do you think these people will wake up one day and realize that Fallout 3 isn't as good as they thought it was? Maybe when Bethesda's PR tells them.

If we go by previous examples, all reviewers will start demolishing Fallout 3 as soon as Bethesda's next title gets announced.

 

[Crni Vuk]

]Take replica sports kits. A National team replica shirt not only appeals to sports fans and patriots but if the team are doing well, then also to trendies. It's a blockbuster release but the market for a local club shirt is much more limited, even if every fan of that club buys a shirt you are looking at tiny percentage of the sales of the national kit. If the majority of a club's fans buy a shirt it's sold well while still remaining niche.

Now thats a really good analogy!

Do you think these people will wake up one day and realize that Fallout 3 isn't as good as they thought it was? Maybe when Bethesda's PR tells them.

If we go by previous examples, all reviewers will start demolishing Fallout 3 as soon as Bethesda's next title gets announced.

yeah just as they did with Oblivion after the anoucement of Fallout 3. Though I have to say, quite some sites/magazines have still been pretty positive with their "criticism". To positive if you ask me.

 

[Dionysus]

American's aren't exactly known for self-deprecating humour, or irony.

I don't know about that. I just know that this sort of joke is common in America, and the people that are taking it seriously might not realize it is a joke because they aren't familiar with the culture.

Take replica sports kits. A National team replica shirt not only appeals to sports fans and patriots but if the team are doing well, then also to trendies. It's a blockbuster release but the market for a local club shirt is much more limited, even if every fan of that club buys a shirt you are looking at tiny percentage of the sales of the national kit. If the majority of a club's fans buy a shirt it's sold well while still remaining niche.

You can show me the smartest person in the Special Olympics, and I'll still say that he or she isn't very bright. Niche titles don't sell well by definition. Niche games appeal to a specialized market, not a broad general market like Bethesda's games. I think one would have to be crazy or ignorant to misinterpret his statement.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I think one would have to be crazy or ignorant to misinterpret his statement.

Actually it's all about sentence structure and the way in which he structured his sentence is one which says that it's a niche game that didn't sell well for a niche game. That said, it's also clear what he intended which was "It was a game that didn't sell very well and appealed to a niche market." Regardless, one must also determine what considered successful as far as sales go and so when he says it didn't sell well he is, in fact, in correct. It's sales figures were high enough to generate a large relative profit and thus, it sold very well. That said, compared to bigger budget, more mainstream games, the number of units sold and sales (in $ not %) was low. Still, keep in mind that when someone says that something didn't sell very well that the implication being communicated is that it was a failure or, at the very least, failed to meet expectations/estimates, Fallout was neither.

We know what he said and I think we all realize that if you understand what he's really getting at (ignoring the PR and marketing BS), he is correct. The problem is getting to what's correct in his statement requires a lot of refinement because if you take the statement at face value, it is extremely misleading.

Sorry about being slow on parts 2&3, I'm very busy today and tomorrow so I might not get to them until tomorrow evening and Wednesday.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

American's aren't exactly known for self-deprecating humour, or irony.

I don't know about that. I just know that this sort of joke is common in America, and the people that are taking it seriously might not realize it is a joke because they aren't familiar with the culture.

I dunno, it sounds like a pretty lame joke to me. Also, I agree on the statement that self-depreciating humour is not much of an American thing at all. I've lived for about 4 years in different parts of US, and have not encountered those very often, if at all.

 

[swampcat]

They either used magic or a lot of money and business muscle.

Nope, I think FO3 is a good example of how business from satisfying market needs turns to shaping market needs through consolidation. This is the next level of marketing, it has been done before (with music industry, for example, were "stars" are being "made" by labels out of virtually nothing), it now happens at the games market. Advances in the marketing department of psychology in recent 10-15 years also help a lot. After a consolidation which has happened during last years game "labels" got powerful enough to create a demand for the repetitive sequels of mediocre games they produce - they don't need to invent something new, no need to innovate at all and risk, just sell the same old crap over and over again and brainwash gamers into thinking that this is the best they could ever get, that "isometric games are things of the past" and so on (that didn't appear out of nowhere, after all). In the end you've got a constant stream of mediocrity where you can't tell a difference between products A and B, they are just there to create some illusion of choice... like FO3/GTA4/Farcry2, like Britney Spears/Christyna Aquilera/Beyonce or whatever else they sell you.

GTA4 : yes i agree with you ! it's not fun like San Andreas
The difference between san andreas and GTA4 is
a real abyss because the genre ( the gta-like genre )
has been hit by a revolution
when cops in san andreas make you easy to reach
5 stars wanted level instead in GTA4 the cops are
strong like hell at 2 stars wanted level ....
( the fun has migrated away from GTA like a bird migration )


FarCry 2 : i agree at 50%
good single player but ugly multiplayer....
other good thing is map editor but too difficult to use
and this makes the old editor still the better editor
(with maps modded with code on PC )



(sorry for my english i'm not english
i'm italian)

 

[Dionysus]

Still, keep in mind that when someone says that something didn't sell very well that the implication being communicated is that it was a failure or, at the very least, failed to meet expectations/estimates, Fallout was neither.

That's where I think people are getting this wrong. If Usain Bolt tells you that you are a slow-poke that isn't very fast, then you shouldn't take that as a grand condemnation of your athletic ability. You might have been the fastest person in your high school, but you are still much slower that Usain Bolt. For Howard, Fallout is a niche game that didn't sell very well. It might have sold well considering the fact that it was a B title and a PC exclusive in 1997, but it wasn't a big hit when you disregard those qualifiers. If you want to complain about something, you should complain about his falacious answer to that hypothetical question.

I dunno, it sounds like a pretty lame joke to me.

It is definitely lame, primarily because that sort of humor is ubiquitous here.

Also, I agree on the statement that self-depreciating humour is not much of an American thing at all. I've lived for about 4 years in different parts of US, and have not encountered those very often, if at all.

I've lived in the U.S. for much longer, and I've noticed a lot of it. Rodney Dangerfield made a career out of it. Guys like Jon Stewart, Conan O'Brien, and Steven Colbert use self deprecation regularly in their shtick. I'd be interested to hear about the comics that portray the image of U.S. comedy abroad. Do you guys just get Dice Clay or something?

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I think you misread my statement. I am judging US humour on my experience in US rather than my experience abroad.

But I do have to say that in my culture, dark ironic or self-criticizing humour is much more prevalent (and imho much more funny but hey), so that may be one of the reasons why I perceive it as "lacking" in the US. But, obviously, I am no expert on humour, so I may be wrong.

If you had me define US humour in one word, I'd say "slapstick".

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

You might have been the fastest person in your high school, but you are still much slower that Usain Bolt.

If you were at a school sports day and your kid not only won but set a new school record and some jerk called them a slow poke would you care who they were?

Howard's choice of words, as UncannyGarlic says imply that Fallout was a failure even for a niche game. Now he might of been repeating something said when the option to buy the license was first suggested but then you'd have to wonder why they would be willing to spend so much money on the license for a sequel to a 'poor' selling game let alone later buy the entire IP. And you are right the real injury is Howard's reason which perpetuates the belief that Fallout was a failure.

But back to your comment I replied to, you don't need blockbuster sales to be selling well. If a tribute band on a club tour packs their venues each night their tickets are still selling well even though each venue might only hold a few hundred people. Compared to the original band which is selling out 80,000 seater stadiums. It's all about profit and market share, if you've made a profit and cornered a market then how can you not be selling well?

 

[Dionysus]

If you were at a school sports day and your kid not only won but set a new school record and some jerk called them a slow poke would you care who they were?

Well, people always think that their kids are special in the face of all contrary evidence. But we're only talking about a game here.

Howard's choice of words, as UncannyGarlic says imply that Fallout was a failure even for a niche game.

This might be a language thing. That wasn't an implication of what he said at all. He says "People would always ask us 'Why are you guys doing Fallout? You know, this was kind of a niche game. It didn't sell that well.' And our answer was 'Look, it's great.'" If he meant that it didn't sell well even for a niche game, then he would have to say that specifically. If you say "There's a skunk. It stinks." you probably aren't saying that the skunk is exceptionally malodorous compared to other of its kind. You are just being redundant to clarify or emphasize certain properties that the skunk possesses.

It's all about profit and market share, if you've made a profit and cornered a market then how can you not be selling well?

Selling "well" is certainly relative, which is why I said that you would have to be crazy or ignorant to misinterpret his statement. If you don't know who Howard is, then you might be inclined to say "Look here, Mr. Man, Fallout sold just fine!" But if you know the speaker and understand the context, the meaning of "that well" is fairly clear (i.e., as well as Bethesda's latest offerings).

 

[Crni Vuk]

If Fallout never was succesfull in what it wanted to achieve then I ask my self why the licence costed aprox 6 million (well 5,8 ?) Dollar.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

If Fallout never was succesfull in what it wanted to achieve then I ask my self why the licence costed aprox 6 million (well 5,8 ?) Dollar.

And that's, from what I've read, without going to auction. If it had gone to auction is possible that it could have went at an even higher price.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Well, people always think that their kids are special in the face of all contrary evidence. But we're only talking about a game here.

I meant if someone was that tactless you'd take offence.

This might be a language thing. That wasn't an implication of what he said at all. He says "People would always ask us 'Why are you guys doing Fallout? You know, this was kind of a niche game. It didn't sell that well.' And our answer was 'Look, it's great.'" If he meant that it didn't sell well even for a niche game, then he would have to say that specifically. If you say "There's a skunk. It stinks." you probably aren't saying that the skunk is exceptionally malodorous compared to other of its kind. You are just being redundant to clarify or emphasize certain properties that the skunk possesses.

Yes it's a language thing, that is what is meant by that sentence. If you say something didn't sell very well you imply it's a failure. If they meant what you say they did then they would of said something like 'Why are you guys doing Fallout? You know, this was kind of a niche game. They don't sell as well.'

 

[Crni Vuk]

well I think we can agree that someone working with PR, promotions and the public should know it better.