Torment and Arcanum

I have replayed Torment over 30 times - other than Master of Orion 2, the most I have played any game from beginning to end. It has the most incredible storyline I have ever encountered in a game, and a hell of a lot better than many professional authors. The characters are completely three-dimensional to the point you desperately want a sequal to see what happens to them after the end of the game. The places you visit are filled with NPCs who obviously had detailed backstories written for them, even though you might only encounter them once, and briefly at that. The Modron Maze, as a parody of many D&D adventures I've seen, is worth the price of admission on its own. My only complaint is the choice of one voice actor for an NPC; the moment you hear him speak you can easily predict what will happen to Nameless, given his previous role on TV.

Arcanum, I played once, and needed a walkthrough and a save game editor to hold my interest that long. I find it to be a bad imitation of Fallout in a steampunk setting. I like the setting, I like some of the rules, but the game itself is plodding and boring, the soundtrack sucks, magic is overpowered, and there are far too many quests to take part in. Buggy-ness abounds. If I could get the Arcanum rules done PnP, I'd love to do a campaign, but I will not restart the game to try a different path, because I consider it to be a waste of my time.
 
BlueNinja said:
Arcanum, I played once, and needed a walkthrough and a save game editor to hold my interest that long. I find it to be a bad imitation of Fallout in a steampunk setting. I like the setting, I like some of the rules, but the game itself is plodding and boring, the soundtrack sucks, magic is overpowered, and there are far too many quests to take part in. Buggy-ness abounds. If I could get the Arcanum rules done PnP, I'd love to do a campaign, but I will not restart the game to try a different path, because I consider it to be a waste of my time.
Finally, someone who speaks sense! :D
 
BlueNinja said:
there are far too many quests to take part in
Is that a vice? ;)
BlueNinja said:
Buggy-ness abounds
Unfortunately, this is beyond doubt, I've bee thrown out of the game many times. But I have replayed it 2,5 times (only a half because I've gotten annoyed with my Technologist character, really, the experience awarding system is a nightmare ...)
 
I bought Arcanum out of the bargain bin, I played it once, for approximately 2 hours.
I know that isn't enough time to really know the game, but it was as much as I could stand. The combat is crap. This could be justified if the game was good, but from the little I saw, it wasn't.
The character creation is bloated and over-complicated. They'd seen that people like the open-ended character system in games like Fallout and thought to emulate it. But where Fallout is simple, yet giving a huge range of ways to play, Arcanum is complex. There's, what 54 races? The whole "backstory" thing for the traits was a good idea, but it was pulled off very badly.
I'm sure there are some redeeming features later on in the game, but I'm not going to put that much effort into finding them.
 
Big_T_UK said:
There's, what 54 races?

You must mean the optional "backgrounds" ?? There are eight playable races in Arcanum: human, dwarf, elf, half-elf, half-orc, half-ogre, halfling and gnome. That's all. Not that the game couldn't do with even less options.
 
Silencer said:
You must mean the optional "backgrounds" ?
No, I meant the races. I was exaggerating. I did remember there being more than that tho'.
 
@ Big_T_UK and all those hardcore RPG gamers: if you never finished the game, if you only played it for like 2 meagre hours, you just don't have a right to speak. I'm sorry, but I don't put my nose into threads I don't know anything about either.

If a n00b visits this forum after playing FO2 for 2 lousy hours and claims that FO2 is shit, than what would you do? Flame the n00b. And I'd help you doing so.

Hell: we should ban Big_T_UK for desperately wanting to be a smart alec!

Look: Arcanum is not perfect. True. But the character creation screen only becomes really mind-dazzling when you've played the game at least once. The backgrounds are poor? No, they're not. Saying they are, is just showing you know zilch about how Arcanum works. Lotsa people start "whinging" (eh, Kharn) about those backgrounds, but to me that only shows they don't "get" the game. The backgrounds give you the possibility to play an infinite amount of characters, but no Jack-of-all-trades like in Fallout. In Arcanum you need to specialize or you die. You want to be a thief. Well, be a thief. Choose the appropriate background and stop complaining about how that fucked up your Willpower or whatever. You can be anyone you want in Arcanum, but you can't be all people at the same time, which is just logic to me. Fallout is a lot poorer in those decisions. Tag Small Guns, Speech and Lockpick (in both games, for crying out loud) and you're set. You'll survive. Always. Try to play a game of Fallout with tagged Throwing skills, Science skills and Speech. It'll work if you know how Fallout works (and if you finished it at least once), but you won't be satisfied (Throwing! Ha!). In Arcanum, the possibilities are nearly endless and what's more: they deliver a really new gaming experience every time you try another character. But you will have to sacrifice certain stats or skills to become really good (which is only normal imo).

The way I see it is this: if you can't appreciate the character creation of Arcanum, you must be one boring RPG player (a Jack-of-all-trades, imo, and pretty colourless).

Combat sucks? Well, imo, that's the melee player talking. Ever tried throwing weapons for a change, like the chakram and the boomerang? Grenades? Magick? Poisons? Backstab + invisibility? Guns? NO? Then shut up. No really, if you only tried your hands at Arcanum for a lousy two hours (which is about the same time I spent playing that Pingu game, for crying out loud), then you have no right to speak whatsoever.

Combat isn't as good as in FO games, agreed, but that's primarily because the manual (or the interface for that matter) does not give you any details about how many action points you need to wield this or that sword or axe or cast this or that spell or whatever. For the rest, the difference with Fallout games is really minimal.

Arcanum is great. Arcanum is pretty fokking close to what I would call a perfect game. Saying that there are too many quests is crap: if you think so and you find it annoying, than just don't do those "boring" quests. Simple, right? There's other quests waiting for you out there, trust me.

I personally think that one of the major problems gamers have with Arcanum is that you need to make difficult choices. More difficult choices than in any Fallout game. You just won't be able to finish all quests the way you wanted to finish them (they'll get botched, eh), much more quests are mutually exclusive, but the reward for that is excellent roleplaying and often in a better way than in Fallout.

Arcanum is also the only RPG that ever gave me a satisfying EVIL PATH. Playing an evil character really gives you a completely different game (something which gamers who tried it for like... yeah, two hours, don't know anything about) and the path of a magician and a technologist is so different, that again, you think you're playing another game. Was Stealing fun in Fallout? Was it really? Well, it is in Arcanum, it offers you a multitude of quests that will not be available to other characters. And so on, and so on.

Look, it's pretty simple: don't attack Troika's first masterpiece if you never played and finished it. If the only things you can say are "it's too brown and grey" or "the 54 backgrounds suck" or whatever, than just , you know, don't even bother. How many of Fallout's traits have you ever used, eh? Always going for "Gifted" and then maybe "Finesse" or "Small frame" or "Fast shot"? Wow, that's just really... wow! Doing it Per's way, because all in all, Per's way is the most satisfying way too play the game.

Try to write an ultimate Arcanum guide. Just try it. I'm laughing already.

Now stop throwing dirt at a game that is, all in all, superior to the Fallout franchise in more than one way.

Hm. I really had to get that of my chest, sorry people, but Arcanum is my kind of game, it just is.
 
Alec said:
If a n00b visits this forum after playing FO2 for 2 lousy hours and claims that FO2 is shit, than what would you do? Flame the n00b. And I'd help you doing so.

Hell: we should ban Big_T_UK for desperately wanting to be a smart alec!
Yep, if I went onto an Arcaum site and bashed it, then it would be entirely fair to bash the n00b, to ban me for my lack of knowledge. This site is not an Arcanum site. This thread is somebody asking people's opinions on the game. Well, I gave mine. I stated clearly that I didn't know the game well (a fact you clearly picked up on), and told him what I didn't like about it, only commenting on what I'd had some (albeit extremely limited) experience in.
Combat isn't as good as in FO games, agreed, but that's primarily because the manual (or the interface for that matter) does not give you any details about how many action points you need to wield this or that sword or axe or cast this or that spell or whatever.
Ah, that's one other thing I'd forgotten about. The interface, the controls. In fact, that's probably what made me quit so soon. I couldn't tell what the hell was going on, or how to do things. Granted I didn't spend too long tinkering with it, but if they'd put that little effort into what is one of the most important parts of any game, I'm sure there would have been problems with the rest.

In a good game, you should be able to play as a novice, a jack of all trades (and master of none). It shouldn't be a challenge just to start the damned thing.
Meh, obviously you like it and I don't. It's also a hell of a long time since I tried it, so I'm probably mistaken on some of it.

Plus, what Malky said. (well, I did read it, but it was still too long)
 
by alec -
Combat isn't as good as in FO games, agreed, but that's primarily because the manual (or the interface for that matter) does not give you any details about how many action points you need to wield this or that sword or axe or cast this or that spell or whatever. For the rest, the difference with Fallout games is really minimal.
Actually, my only real complaint with combat in Arcanum is how hitting an opponent grants you automatic XP. Therefore, people who want to run a diplomat or thief character will advance more slowly, as they will obviously not do as well in fights - which the game abounds in.

Is that a vice?
It is when you start to lose track of who you are supposed to work with to accomplish a quest - or when you spend so long doing sub-quests that you forget the main thrust of the game. Which happened to me more than once, hence the walkthrough. When running a campaign, I don't hesitate to give my players as many side-quests as they can handle, until they start to forget what might be happening when they ignore the really important stuff. Arcanum goes overboard on the number of sub-quests. YMMV.
 
I played Arcanum a whole lot more than 2 hours and hated it. Do I have the right to speak?
 
If Arcanum is a masterpiece, it's a flawed masterpiece.

The reasons the combat system, frankly, sucks; are a whole lot deeper than the issues you mentioned Alec. Then there are the dungeon crawls, several of them; utter tedium. Can you deny the game was buggy, or that multiplayer wasn't a complete waste of development time? The character system was bloated, some of the story elements are rather terrible (like the origins of your character).

...and yes, I've beaten the game at least four times (that fully exploring every subquest appropriate for that character) each time with a distinct character.

I'd have to say, Fallout was a better game than Arcanum. It was more enjoyable on a superficial level, and had better elements on a deeper level. The combat system was superior, every facet of the story was well conceived, there were no obligatory dungeon crawls, and a better character system.
 
Arcanum is a masterpiece to me no matter what anyone says. Once again its in my top 2 list of favorite PC games... :D

Mohrg :twisted:
 
is it ok if i said i didnt really care for both?
(bash!boom!crash!rikus is lying down on the floor beat and dead)

seriously now-
from arcanum which i tried twice to play and got to a third of the plot, comparing it torment which i got to 3 thirds, arcanum will give you better satisfaction because:
1.more freedom, less linear plot, lot more quests.
2. alot more like fallout, torment resmbles more baldur's gate style.
3.if you like a lot of scouting.

torment has great story, you should play whatever you feel like playing more-linear game with great story or non-linear game(with also good plot).
regarding my first remark, i still think they are both kinda unpolished games..
 
Sadly, Arcanum is flawed. The combat is boring, uninvolving and quite clunky. Did you know that it took me 1 year to find out about called shots (the targeted shots that fallout fans know and love)? I have the manual too, but the tiny paragraph dedicated to called shots didn't help. Also there is no interface to MAKE called shots. You just press period or comma and voila, you just did a targeted shot! There is no game message screen to inform you when you score a critical hit nor witty critical hit messages or targeting screens. Magic is WAY overpowered. Just choose fire, conveyance and whatever other discipline you want and you are all set. Fireflash everything into oblivion (the spells are QUITE unimpressive).

On character development, the game bores me to tears. Character backgrounds (similar to traits in fallout) are utterly worthless. You take astronomical hits (specially for a starting character and get lousy bonuses): You lose 2 points in Con, Str, Dex, Int, Will, Cha, HP AND fatigue but in exchange...you start 300 gold richer, *Ben Stein Wow*. The only mildly useful background is "Raised by Monks": You get 1 Perception but start 3/4 poorer than usual. Things cost too much and are quite useless. You spend 10 (if you have 10 Int) points in Intelligence, 6 points in Mechanical Skills to get a doctorate and what do you get? A worthless, mecha spider that can get killed by a level 5 half ogre with an axe. Many tech items are bugged and won't work like the fabled machined plate and the multi-barreled pistol. There is way too much bullshit to carry around if you play a tech character.

The ambience is done fine as far as written material is concerned but the music depresses me and doesn't help the fact that I don't like this game. The graphics are quite uninspiring and the supposedly BEAUTIFUL magic effects are dull.

Your comrades, those brave NPCs you might recruit are only good for goon value. They learn their tech or magic skill to a totally worthless level and then will dump the rest of the character points to hp or whatever. The interaction is quite limited and character development is limited to Magnus, Virgil, Raven, Xan Alluring (whatever the fuck her name is spelled) and Vollinger...if by character development means speaking one liners when you arrive at a certain place or when you get a certain character (Raven is in your party when you get Xan...instead of doing an original or amusing thing like getting into a cat fight, Raven sports that worn, haughty elven bullshit and call Xan "trash". I was tempted to order Magnus and Virgil to donkey punch and raspberry swirl her in turn but there wasn't a button to do that). There isn't any significant interaction between your character and your party members, ala romance, friendship, hatred or at least a common hobby like necrophilia or anal-warto-philia or whatever those sick shrinks come up with. In KotoR, you can hit on a character depending on your gender (most players end up trying to hit on HK-47 for his badassness), not that you would want your avatar to hit on the many trolls and hog beasts that the game portrays.

To sum it up: it's like reading a book you hate but everybody likes and you have to keep reading just to have the "been there, done that" argument to justify yourself.

Sorry for the clunky and overbearing post but I had to get that out of my system.
 
If it wouldn't be a waste of time, I'd suggest a poll. There would be a poll here and an identical poll in a quality Arcanum board. This poll would compare Fallout and Arcanum, and see what results would be garnered. The results could then be compared and analyzed.

Or you could just find if Fallout and Arcanum fans find more faults in Fallout or Arcanum. You would have fans elaborate on the flaws for both games, see which one tallies more. Do Arcanum fans find Fallout to be a better game? Because obviously more Fallout fans would. Does the number of Arcanum fans who realize the immense flaws in the game amount to a significant amount?
 
Well, although I prefer Torment to Arcanum,I really want to play Arcanum again.
I enjoy the dialogues in Torment very much, and the world-structure is amazing.
On the other hand, Arcanum just like Fallout, I think. And the story is very well. If possible, I'd like to read the "Arcanum" novel, not to play the game.
 
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