Torment Kickstarter goes live

[Sander]

You claim the opposite with just as little proof.

I'd say when calling people scammers, the burden of proof is on the one making that claim.

Also, I never said the was a scam artist (i.e. appropriating the money illegally), but there are plenty of ways to use that money for other shit than strictly Torment without doing anything illegally (and considering the complete lack of transparency, without any repercussions either).

I'm fairly sure that raising money under one pretense and then using it for a different purpose is exactly that: scamming people. And also, illegal.

 

[Jebus]

You claim the opposite with just as little proof.

I'd say when calling people scammers, the burden of proof is on the one making that claim.

In the normal economic world everywhere except Kickstarter, the company is obligated to prove to financiers or investors the capital invested/funds loaned are being used for the stated purpose. Banks, for example, have the right to demand proof that a loan granted for the purpose of purchasing a property has been used for that purpose. Shareholders and investors are also guaranteed full disclosure by law.

InXile doesn't, never has and never will offer any goddamn transparency whatsoever about how the funds are used. None. Nada. Zilch. Squat. Apart from some lame-ass 'stretch goals' that shine in nothing but vagueness.

In the normal economic world, a company that refuses to disclose this information to banks or shareholders would be comitting fraud, pure and simple. Even if they did use it for the stated purpose.
NOW NOTE, BEFORE YOU PUT UP STRAWMEN AGAIN: never did I say I "expect" them to disclose this information, the are obligated by law to disclose this information in this instance, or that I have proof of any sort that they are using these funds for other means than their stated purpose. I'm just saying you're a goddamn idiot if you provide funds to anything or anyone without any binding guarantee for or any sort of transparency that the funds are actually used for the stated purposes. It's called "being a sucker".

 

[Sander]

In the normal economic world, a company that refuses to disclose this information to banks or shareholders would be comitting fraud, pure and simple. Even if they did use it for the stated purpose.
NOW NOTE, BEFORE YOU PUT UP STRAWMEN AGAIN: never did I say I "expect" them to disclose this information, the are obligated by law to disclose this information in this instance, or that I have proof of any sort that they are using these funds for other means than their stated purpose. I'm just saying you're a goddamn idiot if you provide funds to anything or anyone without any binding guarantee for or any sort of transparency that the funds are actually used for the stated purposes. It's called "being a sucker".

Or, it's called "evaluating the risk" by the means you do have. That is, Fargo's reputation, inXile's communication, their progress with Wasteland 2.

After all, I'm not investing my money in some grand scheme and with the promise of a big return on investment. I gave them my cash in exchange for the promise of a product. And that's what everyone else did, too.

This comes down to trust. Do you trust Fargo to do what he says he will do? I do. You don't. That's fine. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves.

 

[Wr4i7h]

InXile doesn't, never has and never will offer any goddamn transparency whatsoever about how the funds are used. None. Nada. Zilch. Squat. Apart from some lame-ass 'stretch goals' that shine in nothing but vagueness.

They regularly post updates on the progress of Wasteland 2 and will do the same with Torment once work starts in earnest. It's not detailed proof of where the money is spent, as you would want, but it's enough for most people to see that their money was worth it.

Furthermore, can you imagine the shitstorm if just one of the hired devs blew the whistle on the scheme? It would end Fargo's career and ruin Kickstarter's reputation at the very least.

If you don't trust this way of funding games, you can just wait for it to come out and then decide based on reviews.

Edit: this is not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have some way of ensuring accountability. Just that it doesn't seem necessary with an established name such as Fargo.

 

[smber2cnma]

In the normal economic world everywhere except Kickstarter, the company is obligated to prove to financiers or investors the capital invested/funds loaned are being used for the stated purpose. Banks, for example, have the right to demand proof that a loan granted for the purpose of purchasing a property has been used for that purpose. Shareholders and investors are also guaranteed full disclosure by law.

InXile doesn't, never has and never will offer any goddamn transparency whatsoever about how the funds are used. None. Nada. Zilch. Squat. Apart from some lame-ass 'stretch goals' that shine in nothing but vagueness.

I'm just saying you're a goddamn idiot if you provide funds to anything or anyone without any binding guarantee for or any sort of transparency that the funds are actually used for the stated purposes. It's called "being a sucker".

1st I know for a fact that there are billions being loaned out to American college students that isn't tracked b/c I had dozens of friends on these "cost of living loans" buying all sorts of idiotic things. Banks are surely more demanding of business loans than college loans, but I'd wager there are a good number of loans that are crooked. Or what about check advance setups? They charge 20% or whatever b/c they know a good % of their clients will try to screw them and not get any return on their "investment". So the entire financial world isn't screwed down tight with Kickstarter being some lone exception.

2nd - I, like you, have decided not to fund games on kickstarter at this point...but I'm fine with others choosing to if they want to. I didn't want digital games initially, then after years of Steam showing they were completely/entirely legit and had better pricing...well I gave in and now I've got over a dozen games on steam and another 4 on GOG.

If I were to fund in kickstarter it would likely be on one of these games that I'd love to play and being created by someone who has a reputation to protect.

Heck I just gave my brother $500 for his wedding this summer b/c he's cash strapped while student teaching. I didn't ask for a listing of where each dollar was spent and he could have ripped me off, but I trust he's using the money well and that it will make his wedding more...whatever all the ladies in our family think it should be. I think Kickstarter's model will always rely heavily on that sort of trust.

 

[Jebus]

There's a difference between giving to students, starting artist or entrepeneurs, etc. and to established companies with a CEO who's probably worth as much as 75% or more of this board combined. But hey, if you guys want to see Fargo as some kind of symphatetic normal slob that's up to you guys.

Hey, I'm all for dupes giving them money in the off chance a worthy Torment successor does come out the other end. Who knows. I'll still find this Kickstarter drive an abuse of what Kickstarter's supposed to be for, though.

 

[Sander]

There's a difference between giving to students, starting artist or entrepeneurs, etc. and to established companies with a CEO who's probably worth as much as 75% or more of this board combined. But hey, if you guys want to see Fargo as some kind of symphatetic normal slob that's up to you guys.

People aren't giving inXile money because they pity Fargo and think he's a sad sack who needs money. They're giving inXile money because they like the pitch and want the product to be produced. Fargo's own net worth has nothing to do with that decision.

I'll still find this Kickstarter drive an abuse of what Kickstarter's supposed to be for, though.

You mean what you think Kickstarter is supposed to be for.

 

[dONALD42]

Yeah, Numenera was only founded because people believe t will be the next Torment. I was extremely sceptic, still I would help found it, but I'm poor. I just hope they keep their words.
OMG! Wasteland 2, Project Eternity, and now Tides of Numenera! Sooo many isometric crpgs coming! , it's like people would say "F*ck fps crpg, we want it isometric!".

 

[Tagaziel]

In the normal economic world everywhere except Kickstarter, the company is obligated to prove to financiers or investors the capital invested/funds loaned are being used for the stated purpose. Banks, for example, have the right to demand proof that a loan granted for the purpose of purchasing a property has been used for that purpose. Shareholders and investors are also guaranteed full disclosure by law.

But you aren't an investor. You are buying the product in advance, without entitlement to royalties or any sort of returns beyond the tier you selected.