Two weeks and a day after London was bombed...

[welsh]

There's more on this here.

My wife, a Brazilian, is pissed about this and the more that comes out, the more she might be right to be pissed.

Sorry, but it does look like the Brits are struggling to justify this.

London Police Chief Defends Deadly Force By MICHAEL McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 39 minutes ago

LONDON - The head of London's police force expressed deep regret Sunday for the slaying of a Brazilian man by officers who mistook him for a suspect in the recent terror bombings, but defended the police use of deadly force.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair also said there were similarities between the explosives used in Thursday's failed bomb attacks and those detonated in the deadly July 7 bombings. But he said investigators still had no proof the two strikes were linked.

"The equipment in the bombs had all the elements that it should have but it didn't work," Blair told Sky News TV, referring to the explosives that failed to detonate properly Thursday on three subway cars and a double-decker bus.

"It had some similarities" to the devices used by four suicide bombers who killed themselves and 52 other people in three subway trains and a double-decker bus July 7.

Later Sunday, relatives and friends of people killed in those explosions planned to visit the sites of the attacks after a police briefing on the state of the investigation.

Commissioner Blair, asked if the latest attacks and the July 7 bombings were connected, replied, "We have no proof that they are linked but clearly there is a pattern here."

Police have made two arrests after Thursday's botched attacks. Officers have not released the identities of the arrested, nor many other details about them. Blair said the arrested remained in custody, but added that officers were "still anxious for any sighting of the four individuals" who carried out the Thursday strikes. Closed-circuit TV stills of the suspects were made public last week.

Police also said a package found in west London on Saturday may be linked to the devices used in Thursday's bomb attempts, but gave no details of what the package contained.

Thus the story starts with a simple message- we're under siege by terrorists and the police are investigating. Then...

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, a Brazilian citizen. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

Pinned him to the ground?

Shot five times? This sounds like New York where they shot a guy for taking out his wallet 47 times.

Police initially said they believed Menezes was linked to the investigation of Thursday's attacks, but later said he had no connection to the bomb attempts.

= oops we, ah, fucked up.

"This is a tragedy," Commissioner Blair said of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He defended the officers' shooting to kill, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot to kill policy; it's only a shoot to kill in order to protect policy," he said.

This is where it gets dicey- A "shoot to kill to protect" means what?
Does it mean that normally they just shoot to kill, and the "protect" is just added bonus?

And exactly how far does this "shoot to kill to protect" policy go? "Shoot to kill to protect based on suspicion?"

British police had drawn from the experience of other countries that have had to deal with suicide attackers, he said.

"It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," Blair said. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," Blair said.

So why did they shoot him in the torso? To make sure he's dead?

(Now if this were the US, the cops might have been savy enough to leave a drop piece, but in London perhaps they have better manners).

Blair spoke of the problem his officers faced.

"What we have got to recognize is that people are taking incredibly difficult fast-time decisions in life threatening situations," he said. "... What's most important to recognize is that it's still happening out there. There are still officers out there having to make those calls as we speak."

Ok, that's fair. This is stressful. If you're a cop chasing a suspected terrorist and you're closing in I would think that you'll be wondering "Damn I hope he doesn't have a dependable detonator."

Police said Menezes attracted police attention because he left a building that was under surveillance after Thursday's attacks. They said he was then followed by surveillance officers to the station, and that his clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions.

So if you leave a building that's part of an investigation you're a suspect?

Brazil's Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed," over the death of Menezes, whom they did not name, but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."

But here is a little hypocracy from Brazil. Brazil is a place where they shoot first and ask questions later, where prison is what you get if the cops feel merciful or you don't have money to pay a bribe. This is where the badge is an excuse for rent seeking, where cops don't have much of a high school education, where the military police runs the basic patrols for public order (or repression). A place where the cops will shoot the hostage to get kidnapper, where shooting kids in slums is a regular sport.

So, thinking about how the police are in Brazil, if you're a Brazilian and the cops come after you, the smart thing to do is run.

Britain's Foreign Office said that Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, who is visiting London, would hold a private meeting with a British official to discuss the circumstances of the shooting.

Menezes was an electrician who had been working in Britain for three years, said his cousin Alex Pereira, who also lives in London.

"He was a 100 percent good guy who never did anything wrong and had no reason to run," Pereira said. "I don't think he ran from police. I don't think he would do that. They can't show anything that shows that he had."

Which goes back to the reason this has to be investigated.

The shooting was an indication of the anxiety in the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe.

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public.

"It's incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it's very important that young Asian men don't feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there," Chakrabarti said.

But just the same, if you are a towel head....
or even if you have a dark complexion and are brunnette (because Latins kind of look like Middle easterners or Italians, or Spanish, or Portuguese, or Southern Swiss, or some slavs....)

This might be a good time to dye your hair blond?

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, "It's absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness

Meaning that Muslims become target practice?

 

[Big T]

Said Brazillian had lived in London for 5 years, and was a fluent english speaker. General Police practice when pursuing someone is to yell "Stop! Police!"- not exactly the most complex of English sentences. Now, Brazillo did NOT stop, even after seeing (I assume) drawn firearms. He instead, cunningly after the bombs that had torn through his city of residence, kept running with his rucksack ONTO a train.

That was kinda my initial response, but I've not yet seen/heard an eyewitness report (or even a statement by the police) stating that they did say "Stop! Police!". The closest I've heard was "Stop! Get down!".

This, coupled with the fact that they were plain-clothes officers, makes it a little less clean-cut than you indicate.

If you saw several men in suits chasing you waving pistols, would you assume they were police officers? You might do, but you also might not. Unless they told you, which is what they should do.

So, maybe it wasn't too bright to flee, but he may well have panicked upon seeing the weapons and thought that he was running for his life.

 

[Mikey]

"He was a 100 percent good guy who never did anything wrong and had no reason to run," Pereira said. "I don't think he ran from police. I don't think he would do that. They can't show anything that shows that he had."

What? What about all the eyewitnesses on the train?

 

[Zaij]

You know, the poor guy could have just been running to catch a train? And they were pllain clothes cops and he mightn't have heard the "police!" and thought he was going to get mugged? I'd start running if 4 guys started chasing me.

 

[Mikey]

If he was running to catch the train why would he vault the ticket barriers?

 

[Brother None]

If he was running to catch the train why would he vault the ticket barriers?

'cause he didn't have a ticket?

Shit, man, 's not like everybody who takes the train has tickets.

That said, my initial response that he was probably doing something wrong, hence why he ran from the police. A lot of people, especially people with bad experiences with the police, tend to react that way if they have *anything* on their conscience.

He might've been carrying a knife, as some people do. He might've been travelling without a ticket. Well, whatever, hardly justified shooting him five times.

 

[welsh]

Or, as I argued with my wife... he might be responding to his knowledge of how dangerous the police can be. This could have been driven by his experience as a Brazilian which might not be reasonable to a Londoner.

Look, if a cop were to tell me "Freeze Police!" I would stop moving (especially if I am innocent) so that the following "Or I'll shoot!" would never need be uttered.

But, a person from a place where like Brazil where police repression and abuse are common might see the police more as a threat. Even if you are innocent, you might still get shot or tortured or beaten up. That 'they want you' is enough for fear. Trust me on this, when in Brazil and you see the police coming, you go the other way. If you look at their shotguns, they just might get nervous.

Add that with the high level of tension and nervouseness of the policeman. Remember, didn't the Spanish cops get blown up when they went to arrest the suspected Madrid bombers? The police might be thinking the guy has a bomb on his and he's not going to home to dinner, to his wife or his daughter. Cops might be lethally risk averse.

So the victim might be acting reasonably as a Brazilian. Is that reasonable for London? Perhaps not for the average Londoner who grew up when the cops didn't walk around with guns.

But London is also a city in which a sizeable chunk of the population is short-term transient, and another chunk is just visiting for a few years. Shouldn't the police realize this? That the reaction of some people- flee if you can- is not evidence of guilt by of fear?

Or perhaps it's like Kharn is saying. This fellow is wondering as the police are coming for him... "Am I carrying pot again... oh fuck."

A crime many people are guilty of and probably not worth getting shot over.

 

[RealEagle]

He wasn't shot for not carrying a ticket, or even being a bomber suspect. He was shot for failing to stop and cooperate with the officers. Which is fucked up, of course, but there's really no guilty party in this incident.

Hopefully the cops would learn from this incident and make every attempt to inform the suspect of their identity and intentions in the future.

 

[welsh]

"Getting shot because he failed to stop and cooperate with an officer." That' makes for a lousey justification.

For example, around here we have an epidemic of fat cops. I mean really, gut-over-the-belt-sweating-like-a-pig-with-persperation-made-of-95%-hydrogenated-oil-and-cholesterol-oozing-out-of-their-skin fat.

We also have college kids with a tradition of streaking the lawn in Spring and summer.

Now imagine, if these fat cops tried to chase these kids down, would the kids be responsible if fat cops got heart attacks?

Likewise, is some fat redneck cop going to say "Well I was eatin my donut when I saw this color'd fellow walking with a TV over his shoulder. So I tell him, 'stop police' like they does on the Tee Vee. But he drops the TV and runs, so guess I had to shoot em. How was I supposed to know he wasn't some thief. He was walking out of Best Buys."

(Happy fat black cops can shoot white red necks based on presumption of being a 'cracker' so we have social equality.)

That said, terrorism makes this a problem. If Mr. Cop was to say to Mr Would-be Terrorist, "Excuse me but would please come with us so we can send you to Gitmo for years without due process, deprivation, absence of loved ones and occassional torture merely for suspicion of terrorism. Oh and if you are a terrorist, please don't push that button that will set off that vest bomb you're wearing."

But then no one said democracy was easy.

Remember, if the virtue of democracy is in the civil rights of the person- their right to assemble, worship, speak and think what they want, the price of that is that a few whackos will commit crimes of terror because they are drama whores.

 

[Mikey]

"Getting shot because he failed to stop and cooperate with an officer." That' makes for a lousey justification.

Well, since the day before people had attempted to blow us up a second time, I reckon it is a pretty reasonable justification.

As Commisioner Blair said, what if the Officers had thought "Oh he's just someone innocent - let him run." and he had been a terrorist about to blow up the tube again? Then we would have more than one innocent die.

'cause he didn't have a ticket?

Well, vaulting the barrier on the underground is pretty obvious and stupid. I mean, they have attendents/guuards/operatives/grunts hanging around at every barrier to help the disabled people through, so it's a pretty stupid thing to do anyway.

 

[Brother None]

As Commisioner Blair said, what if the Officers had thought "Oh he's just someone innocent - let him run." and he had been a terrorist about to blow up the tube again? Then we would have more than one innocent die.

No, HALT, stop right there, that is not how the Western justice system works. If you walk even an inch down that road you go back to the middle ages and burning people because they're witches. This isn't the bloody Red Scare, I want real justifications, not this nillynallying scraping for excuses for the cops.

Please explain to me what justified shooting him in the head after pinning him?

 

[Mikey]

Yeah, I never quite understood why they shot him five times after pinning him. I can understand the in the head bit, but not after he was restrained. Of course, they might have thought he was going to detonate his imaginary bomb-belt.

No, HALT, stop right there, that is not how the Western justice system works. If you walk even an inch down that road you go back to the middle ages and burning people because they're witches. This isn't the bloody Red Scare, I want real justifications, not this nillynallying scraping for excuses for the cops.

Hey, I'm just quoting what the chief man said.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah, I never quite understood why they shot him five times after pinning him. I can understand the in the head bit, but not after he was restrained. Of course, they might have thought he was going to detonate his imaginary bomb-belt.

Well, unless his bomb was tied directly to his brain, the chance of stopping him *after* pinning him down by shooting him in the head is minute. If he had already pressed the button, he would blow up. If not, he wouldn't be able to reach it as you had him pinned

So "huh?"

 

[Jovan]

Getting KILLED for not wanting to stop when police said stop while PINNED on the ground at point blank range is bullshit.

I understand their concern, but please, this is hay wired bullshit.

 

[Zaij]

The thing I hate most about these bombings is the obvious stupidty of the government. 1/1,000,000 people die and so civil liberties fly out the window.

 

[RealEagle]

The government isn't stupid. The government is seizing the opportunity.

 

[welsh]

Perhaps the government is seizing an opportunity and because the person was a non-national and gets little sympathy, this issue might be forgotten. Perhaps the regular folks in London are thinking more about the people who got their limbs ripped off and were left in such a sorry state that you can't tell them apart, the people might overlook a mistake by the police.

Perhaps.

They had this on CNN last night-
Incidently, the guy was shot 8 times after they had him pinned down.
- The police followed him from his apartment which was in a building linked to the bombers.
-Apparently he was wearing his jacket zipped up on what the police felt was a warm day.
- The police followed him to a bus that he took before entering the train.
- The fellow was chased by plain clothes policemen.
- Also he was supposedly in a fight with a number of people the prior week and thought these plains clothes cops were members of that group that were looking to deliver a little more pain-

and thus he was running for his life but for the wrong reason.

Maybe he didn't understand English if (and this is still maybe) the police said "halt police."

I can understand why this happened. Police are stressed out, they are afraid there will be more bombings, their are less likely to take chances that imperil the innocent. But this "shoot to kill to protect" bullshit, is ripe for problems.

Does the fact that people were blown up on trains justify the police violence in this incident?

I don't think so. This guy was not a terrorist, just an non-native trying to make a quid.

If this is a case of tragedy, than what can be done to stop another incident.

 

[Murdoch]

If this is a case of tragedy, than what can be done to stop another incident.

Remove the reasons why the islamic world hates the west. As such, we should take back the crusades and stop using oil.

 

[Brother None]

Remove the reasons why the islamic world hates the west. As such, we should take back the crusades and stop using oil.

Which would solve exactly dickshit. The "islamic world" is suffering from infighting at Jihadist hands more than we are suffering for their attacks, there is not reason for us to go guilt-trip because we fucked them over and are "apparently" now paying the price, because that has very little to do with them. We're not Russia clinging on the Chechnya for geopolitical reasons or Israel clinging on to their land for dear life, fer Pete's sake.

- Also he was supposedly in a fight with a number of people the prior week and thought these plains clothes cops were members of that group that were looking to deliver a little more pain-

Police also claimed his "green card" or whatever was expired. A reason to run if he knew they were cops

"Police" is pretty much the same in a shitload of languages, including Portuguese, I think. Polizia?

 

[Murdoch]

Which would solve exactly dickshit. The "islamic world" is suffering from infighting at Jihadist hands more than we are suffering for their attacks, there is not reason for us to go guilt-trip because we fucked them over and are "apparently" now paying the price, because that has very little to do with them. We're not Russia clinging on the Chechnya for geopolitical reasons or Israel clinging on to their land for dear life, fer Pete's sake.

-psst, which part of did you not understand?-