UBI - Universal Basic Income

[Hassknecht]

Why would anyone work for equal the pay they would get for not working?

!! And why should they be paid for not working?

*You know that the mindset to pay people for nothing only exists in persons who get the money for free.

Obviously you get more when you work. Let's say, UBI is a 1000 bucks. If normal wage would have been 2000 bucks after taxes but the increased tax load takes away less than 1000 bucks more than previous, then you actually gain as well because you also get the UBI. Unless it's the unconditional unemployment money, in which case you still get more than those not working.
Personally, I never even see 40% of my wage. 40% and I'm just upper middle class. I wonder when the limit of who's considered rich is lowered enough that my 40% will slowly creep towards 50% and more.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Obviously you get more when you work.

Did I misread, or was the mention not "where every job has to pay you at the very least as much like the UBI or slightly more"?

Totally unfair, right?

Of course it's unfair; most of life is.
If you strip the principle of it out, then the amount doesn't matter; ten millions, or ten pennies. It comes down to what it took to make the money. If it was easy to come by, then they would be less attached to it, but if it cost them friends, allies, and health, or cost them an egregious amount of time & energy... then it might be worth more to them than the value of the money itself.

Your truth and what it can lead to, can be seen in the history books about the 18th century which lead to some of the bloodiest revolutions you can imagine.

Is it true or is it not true? Jobs exist because someone wants something done.

Treat parts of your population like shit and they will at some point tear down society.

If the workers can not buy what they need to survive they might one day come up with the idea to eat the rich.

Keep the tiger fed before the show. Right. Doesn't work reliably... It can attack for any reason at all. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the police pulled 50 families out of the supermarket; looters. This was the first day, a few hours past dawn... across the street from a Police station.

Besides you as a business owner also need people that can actually pay for your service.

It's not a two way street. There is a store here that sells Christmas ornaments; that's all they sell. The guy opens it whenever he wants to. Last year AFAIK he did not open it during December, possibly not for months prior to that. I saw it open in February. This store has been there 45 years.

Even more reason to pay people a fair wage

What's fair? Fair to whom? Fair to them, or fair to the one who has to pay it? What's a fair wage for this job?

Is it fair to pay the the same as the car washers?
Is it fair to pay the same for pizza delivery?

Pizza delivery requires a vehicle; possibly the business owner's. They have to pay insurance on that. The employee has to be able to use the vehicle legally... they can't just hire anyone to do it.

Is it fair to pay the same for private mail delivery? The employees have to be bonded, and able to be trusted with the truck, and capable of delivering everything on a schedule.

Is it fair to pay the same to an electrician's helper; to a Walmart greeter?

How about for Papier-mâché? Is it fair to pay the person who designs the form, the same wage as the person who applies the paper strips to the form? If the form designer works for $15 per hour, does that mean the employer must pay $30 per hour for two guys to slap glued newsprint to the form?

That is the idea that people would not follow a profession if there was no monetary incentive or existential need.

No the idea was to read it both ways; that the workers would resent working to feed the other people in line at the store.

Let us be real, why are you doing your job? And would you continue to work in your profession if you had no existential need for doing it?

Because it sells / no.

But what we are not made for, is to be exploited. Exploited by people that believe it is "ok" to not pay someone a living wage.

But this is what you advocate; exploiting people who work, by people who think that it's okay not to pay their own way. This is like saying, 'You always catch more than enough fish, you shouldn't keep all of it to yourself'... Or... "You are a strong chap, carry my bags too; you'd hardly feel it".

*But to rephrase in a way that you will all understand, "You drive there anyway, give me a lift"... Do we not all know a person that quite literally wants a free ride, and never contemplates paying for gas?

A UBI would appear to be the ultimate free ride.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Is it true or is it not true? Jobs exist because someone wants something done.

Uhm, sure. What's your point?

Keep the tiger fed before the show. Right. Doesn't work reliably... It can attack for any reason at all. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the police pulled 50 families out of the supermarket; looters. This was the first day, a few hours past dawn... across the street from a Police station.

Do you want to live in a stable society or not? What is the alternative? letting people starve to death despite having jobs? Jobs that have to be done by the way because otherwise society would collapse. Because that's what's at stake here. If not, then good luck! I hope you have a gun under your pillow and you're ready to use it at all times against your fellow neighbour because one way or another this "sink or swim" mentality is going to bite you in the ass. Societies do not work well when you keep parts of the population in the shit hole for to long because in the end it always leads to riots and chaos. Why do you think we made this social progress over the last several thousands years? Because the ruling elites are so generous and full of altruism? Or because they ended up on the chopping block one time to much?

I have to wonder if you would feel right at home in Biff Tannen's future society from Back to the Future 2 you know the one where he rules everything ...

This store has been there 45 years.

Yes, in a time of prosperity and growth where even the United states saw an increase in social programs. Now imagine how things would be in another 45 years if let us say 30% of the population is pushed bellow the poverty line for what ever reason.

​

What's fair? Fair to whom? Fair to them, or fair to the one who has to pay it? What's a fair wage for this job?

A wage where you're not starving to fucking death is fair. And not because of some higher morale but to secure your own ass as well. You have to accept this for the same reason that you don't accept police officers torturing a convict to get information out of him. Because you never know if it will be you - innocent or not - who's going to be hit by one day.

I know that I can be pretty radical in my views sometimes I am not that self delusional. But is the idea of living in a society where macro economic decisions affect everyone that alien to you? That you're living a much saver and happier live when you do not have to worry constantly about poor people or crazy lunatics to blow your head off for a subway sandwich?

If we would be talking about Amazon employees getting $5000 per month then I would understand your objection. But we're not talking about luxuries here. Just a normal live.

 

[Gizmojunk]

When I was a child, I saw a street bum beg another for a swig from his bottle. The man would not let the other guy drink from the bottle, and demanded he use a cup. The guy didn't have a cup, so he looked around the alley (this was Pirate's Alley; seen in the film Tightrope). He found a cup, and the bum with the bottle scoffed that it was dirty. (Totally true story)

The bum with the dirty cup dipped it into the alley drain, and swished it around in the runoff water from the Cabildo museum; this was often white with floor disinfectant, and ran down the center of the alley drainage. That was apparently good enough, so he poured him a bit of it in the cup, and the man quickly drank it down.

Where I live, people sleep in the parks, sleep in the alleys, sleep on your porch if you aren't mindful. I pulled a sleeping man out of my back car seat in a commercial parking lot.

They eat from the trash bins, from vacated tables in outdoor cafe's. Most fast food restaurants, and bakeries discard the old (but still quite edible and reasonably safe to eat) baked & fried goods every night. One can often find 40 gallon trash bags filled with unbroken soft french bread. Nobody is starving here.

On top of it all there are the homeless missions that all feed the homeless (or anyone who shows up). Thursday here, Sunday there, Wednesday somewhere else; and pan-handling in between. They all know the schedules.

They don't want a job; they sleep in $350 gift tents and couches outside of City Hall, and the bus station. 65°F (18°C) is considered cold here. It only snows here once every ten years or so. When it does actually freeze here, every shelter takes them in for free. They have free cell phones!

The homeless here can make more than I do. Seriously; some will even pass-out with a tip jar, and make $30 per hour.

Spoiler

*It's an act, but sometimes they really are drunk, or asleep; and they go get drunk when they count up their tips. This costs them the price of a can of spray paint; and a very real risk for skin and lung cancer.

 

[Crni Vuk]

When I was a child, I saw a street bum beg another for a swig from his bottle.

This again? Your "anecdotal" evidence? And I am supposed to take this as justification to let people starve to death if they are "lazy bums"?

Look why don't you round up all those "lazy bums" and ... yeah, build some labour camps, you could have guards (another way to get a job by the way) which could punish them if they don't work hard and those that refuse it get shoot.

The Soviets had great success with them. You might have heard of it. The Soviet State knew no homeless or unemployed. It was a workers paradise.

They eat from the trash bins, from vacated tables in outdoor cafe's. Most fast food restaurants, and bakeries discard the old (but still quite edible and reasonably safe to eat) baked & fried goods every night. One can often find 40 gallon trash bags filled with unbroken soft french bread. Nobody is starving here.

No of course not they are living the American dream. Feeding of what your society throws away. What a great way to spend his life.

What I am trying to say is if we followed the rules of the free market it would be better to throw food away rather than giving it to people for free.

On top of it all there are the homeless missions that all feed the homeless (or anyone who shows up). Thursday here, Sunday there, Wednesday somewhere else; and pan-handling in between. They all know the schedules.

Seriously why don't you start working there for some time, get a real image, talking to the people, getting to know them, talking to them rather than just always about them.

Not all "lazy" bums are the same or have the same story. Do you even know how many homeless people are veterans with psychological issues? And yet you're arguing here as if you would know each one of them all across the country like your brother.

The homeless here can make more than I do. Seriously; some will even pass-out with a tip jar, and make $30 per hour.

So, why aren't you doing it? Sounds like an awesome job!

 

[Gizmojunk]

This again?

Again? When have I even told that story? And how do you interpret laziness from that?

No of course not they are living the American dream.

So it would seem; the dream has changed.

These people are content to live as goats in a land fill; they refuse all help but cash. Offer them food, and they scoff at it. Offer them any aid but cash, or salable gifts, and you are seen as an annoying do-gooder.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Again? When have I even told that story? And how do you interpret laziness from that?

So they are not "lazy" in your eyes? ( I used it sarcastically ).

These people are content to live as goats in a land fill; they refuse all help but cash. Offer them food, and they scoff at it. Offer them any aid but cash, or salable gifts, and you are seen as an annoying do-gooder.

Are you paid in food and salable gifts?

In this day and age that people demand "cash" isn't hardly surprising. Not to me anyway​

 

[Gizmojunk]

In this day and age that people demand "cash" isn't hardly surprising. Not to me anyway

Paid? So you finally agree that they treat begging like a full time job?

You can't buy drugs & alcohol with food.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Paid? So you finally agree that they treat begging like a full time job?

No I don't. I my intention was to express that demanding money isn't at all surprising considering the role money plays in our society these days. Particularly as you already mentioned, no one needs to be starving. So if you offer someone food which they can get ( I guess ) relatively easy they of course prefer money since money gives them the option to buy something that's not easy to get. Money is equal to freedom in our society.

You can't buy drugs & alcohol with food.

They maybe they will. Or they will buy something else which they might need in that moment. Medice for example, clothes, what ever. I don't know it. And you don't either.

Besides taking drugs, be it alcohol, cigarettes or even something stronger isn't all that surprising either when you're facing a very difficult situation and you have something that helps you to dull the pain or feelings you have. It's pretty much what's at the bottom of almost any addiction - escapism.

Which is also one of the reasons why drug addicts in prison become even worse addicts, because access to drugs is even easier and you're also now in a worse situation than before.

 

[Gizmojunk]

But none of this is condonable. They will sit indefinitely by the curbsides awaiting free money for weeks, months, years; they teach their kids to do the same. "Paying" them ensures they will never leave. They brazenly expect (and often demand) that the industrious fully support them for life, and for reasons of----because.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well then what would be your solution?

 

[Hassknecht]

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.
Don't teach a man to fish; fishing's easy, he'll figure it out.

 

[Crni Vuk]

1. Or, starve him to death.
2. keep the pond for your self.
3. ...
4. Profit.

 

[Dragula]

Eat the rich.

 

[TorontoReign]

Crni's answer is to nationalize our corporations. How quaint.

 

[Hassknecht]

Nationalization is the answer to everything. 68% of the time it works every time.
Seriously though, it could work, but please without planned economy this time. Let them run a profit, and don't force them to follow a tight 5 Year Plan or some shit like that. Allow a market economy.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Crni's answer is to nationalize our corporations. How quaint.

Just some of them.

Health care for example should not be a private business for the same reason that fire brigades are not only paid when there is a fire. I don't give a wooden nickel about people selling their weed on street corners as part of their business for example. You want drugs? In my opinion you have every right to it.

But what I do not like is to have corporations breathing down our neck and throwing billions at politics to get their laws done so we see another bail out of epic proportions that no one ever asks "HoW aRe wE GoNa PaY foR iT!".

Nationalization is the answer to everything. 68% of the time it works every time.
Seriously though, it could work, but please without planned economy this time. Let them run a profit, and don't force them to follow a tight 5 Year Plan or some shit like that. Allow a market economy.

Has anyone here ever seriously demanded that or ever made a real argument in favour of it? I've been for decades on this forum and I can remember that we had countless of discussion about privatisation and liberalisation of markets. But I can not remember anyone seriously ever arguing in favour of planed economies.

Is this like a real risk that we're running in to any time soon or something? Did I miss something her? ​

 

[TorontoReign]

Can we also nationalize the news so the world can be entirely run by Reptilians?

 

[Crni Vuk]

No.

 

[Hassknecht]

Has anyone here ever seriously demanded that or ever made a real argument in favour of it? I've been for decades on this forum and I can remember that we had countless of discussion about privatisation and liberalisation of markets. But I can not remember anyone seriously ever arguing in favour of planed economies.

Is this like a real risk that we're running in to any time soon or something? Did I miss something her? ​

Didn't say anything about anyone saying it here, just pointing out that nationalizing essential industry always runs the risk of turning into planned economies simply by eliminating competition that could provide alternative supply for any demand. It can easily end up as a state-owned monopoly that takes the worst of both worlds, same as privatisation of previously nationalized businesses.
My point is that nationalization isn't an easy solution, it has to be done carefully. If there's no market, well, there's central planning. And that can end up rather shitty. So can the market, of course, and that's why one needs to be careful as to not take the worst elements of a market economy and mixing it with the worst elements of a state-owned monopoly.
I mean, what is your expectation of nationalizing any industry branch? Isn't the whole point to put a strict control on the market so the state can directly use that industry for the benefit of the people? What's controlling the output of that industry then? Exactly, planning. It's a natural consequence of nationalization with the aim of controlling the market. That's why I'm pointing out that nationalization isn't an easy cure for anything, in the worst case it leads to a (partially) planned economy that will almost inevitably fail at some point.

/edit: What industries would you think should be nationalized, and what would be the benefit be?