Big T said:
I would certainly hope they are committed, as some of them are outside in sub-zero temperature for days on end. I doubt there are many fair weather protestors there.
Ukraine election fraud
- Thread starter quietfanatic
- Start date
I would certainly hope they are committed, as some of them are outside in sub-zero temperature for days on end. I doubt there are many fair weather protestors there.
The ones who are there all day are likely to be committed, but some of the other sorts may just "pop in" to see what's happening, then go home after a few hours.Fireblade said:
But, yes, things like the weather, the time taken (and other things) make it seem likely that most of them are real protestors.
Thing is, I used to live in Kiev, and I know there are at least 20% just pure nationalists out there just because Yushchenko is anti-Russian. Hell, lots of them keep on saying Ukraine is the best, most cultural compared to the Russian unculturized bandits. Or that the Ukraianians are superiour to the Russians, it gets said all the time. It don't matter which candidate is anti-Russian, those nationalists would be for them. Funny that's the kind of mind set that let Hitler get power, who were jealous of the Jews. I'm not saying Yushchenko is one of those nationalists I'm saying that this whole thing is really about Russia vs Ukraine not anything else, really.
Banko said:
Im not saying its good or evil, as there is no more "Evil Empire" to joke about. If the elections WERE rigged however, they deserve a recount...no matter who wins.
Fireblade said:
I was never denying that, I was saying that the Western Media that you all read here doesn't necesarilly say about a huge reason why there are protestors. The only reason the Eastern parts wants to become seperate is not on the issue of fraud, it's the fact that a person like Yushchenko would cut off the right to speak Russian, (40% of the populous are Russian Speaking) and tell you to speak nothing but Ukranian? Yanukovich wanted to make Russian a second official language, but Yushchenko wants to completely kill it off. This is why the Eastern parts wants to be seperate. It is for that reason alone. Not about fraud, again.
quietfanatic
Ancient One
It is true that the Western media has been seriously lacking in analysis for some reason. I suspect that this is because they don't want to cause more political trouble. The media should go beyond the mere events based reporting and give the whole picture, from both sides of the issue. I wouls really like more detail and background from the media.
It is true that there was election fraud, but there was probably little else the East could do if they were slightly outnumbered. Language is a first step to gaining control as it is vital to your cultural identity. So stopping the changes would herald the loss of Russian influence in the country, which might also extend to many other areas, such as the business sector. The Russian orthodox people probably also fear that they will be sidelined by the Catholics politically, which must be the central reason for supporting Yanukovich. Language is more than just a handy method of communicating ideas.
Although it's a bit cynical of me, I doubt that the reaction of the people in Kiev would have been so extreme had Yushchenko won with the aid of election fraud. I think it would be best if they had a completely new and honest election, even though the courts are trying to sort it out.
It is true that there was election fraud, but there was probably little else the East could do if they were slightly outnumbered. Language is a first step to gaining control as it is vital to your cultural identity. So stopping the changes would herald the loss of Russian influence in the country, which might also extend to many other areas, such as the business sector. The Russian orthodox people probably also fear that they will be sidelined by the Catholics politically, which must be the central reason for supporting Yanukovich. Language is more than just a handy method of communicating ideas.
Although it's a bit cynical of me, I doubt that the reaction of the people in Kiev would have been so extreme had Yushchenko won with the aid of election fraud. I think it would be best if they had a completely new and honest election, even though the courts are trying to sort it out.
Banko said:
Yes, and I'm Clinkerbell the tooth fairy.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Banko said:
Well the places in the east that 100% turnout, wich meant the dead, the people that migrated and all of the sick voted can be seen as some sort of paranormal democracy i guess... nah
Look just the fact Germany and the US agree on this shows this is more than an anti Russian cruzade. And maybe the western media would be more kind to Yakunovich if they didn`t had to report on his suporters making speeches on his campaign headquarters about this beeing a fight by the "good" Ukrainians against american homossexuals and the capitalists... really he promisses double citizenship and double oficial languages just because he needs Russia support to keep his nepotist and oligarchical corrupt policies, while it`s time for Ukraine to take it´s future in hands.
If the new powers start to attack the russian part of the population the EU and OSCE have the tools to stop it, at least if Putin doesn`t screw up with a push for the breaking up of the country. If that happens well then it´s his fault and Russia will suffer for it.
It is not the business of Washington or London or Ottawa to decide whether they accept the election results in the Ukraine. It is for the sovereign Ukrainian institutions to solve the process through the proper and existing legislative process, namely an examination of the complaints by the supreme court and the subsequent publishing of the results.
After this, the new President will be announced. It is a simple, clear process and the Ukrainians are capable of solving their own problems without outside interference from the countries who are dying to install Yushchenko, no doubt so that lucrative arms contracts can be delivered to NATO and military bases set up on Russia's borders.
Therefore the declaration by a number of western countries that they did not accept the result obtained by the Ukrainian Central Election Committee is ludicrous. What if the rest of the world tells the United States of America that it does not accept the result of the ballot in Ohio because it was rigged?
And who is Tony Blair to make any declarations, now that members of his own party wish to impeach him for gross misconduct in leading the country into an illegal act of butchery in Iraq baced on barefaced lies?
The strongarm tactics used by the western stooge, Yushchenko, are typical of the anti-democratic processes set in motion by a rampant and militant Washington, crushed in the grip on a monetarist, neo-conservative crypto-fascist clique of elitists, whose corporate greed speaks louder than the mores of internacional diplomacy and whose thirst to dominate the
world's resources in the lifetimes of Rumsfeld and Cheney throws any moral concept into the trash bin.
Yushchenko himself has set himself up as the worst type of unprofessional clown playing the fool in public. His "swearing in" ceremony in a parliament without a quorum was as classic a case of his foolishness as has ever been seen. Why didn't he place a piece of parsley over each ear and stick an apple in his mouth, and claim he was a pig, as well?
Playing this type of childish game gives Yushchenko as much authority as a drunken down-and-out, lying on the floor of a public latrine in a pool of urine, with a bottle by his side, saying he is the president, that he is a doctor, that he is also a cosmonaut on Thursday afternoons and if it hadn't been for Eltsin, he would also be God.
Next time, why doesn't Viktor Yushchenko wear a baseball cap and a skirt, with a plastic red nose and his face painted like the clown he is?
After this, the new President will be announced. It is a simple, clear process and the Ukrainians are capable of solving their own problems without outside interference from the countries who are dying to install Yushchenko, no doubt so that lucrative arms contracts can be delivered to NATO and military bases set up on Russia's borders.
Therefore the declaration by a number of western countries that they did not accept the result obtained by the Ukrainian Central Election Committee is ludicrous. What if the rest of the world tells the United States of America that it does not accept the result of the ballot in Ohio because it was rigged?
And who is Tony Blair to make any declarations, now that members of his own party wish to impeach him for gross misconduct in leading the country into an illegal act of butchery in Iraq baced on barefaced lies?
The strongarm tactics used by the western stooge, Yushchenko, are typical of the anti-democratic processes set in motion by a rampant and militant Washington, crushed in the grip on a monetarist, neo-conservative crypto-fascist clique of elitists, whose corporate greed speaks louder than the mores of internacional diplomacy and whose thirst to dominate the
world's resources in the lifetimes of Rumsfeld and Cheney throws any moral concept into the trash bin.
Yushchenko himself has set himself up as the worst type of unprofessional clown playing the fool in public. His "swearing in" ceremony in a parliament without a quorum was as classic a case of his foolishness as has ever been seen. Why didn't he place a piece of parsley over each ear and stick an apple in his mouth, and claim he was a pig, as well?
Playing this type of childish game gives Yushchenko as much authority as a drunken down-and-out, lying on the floor of a public latrine in a pool of urine, with a bottle by his side, saying he is the president, that he is a doctor, that he is also a cosmonaut on Thursday afternoons and if it hadn't been for Eltsin, he would also be God.
Next time, why doesn't Viktor Yushchenko wear a baseball cap and a skirt, with a plastic red nose and his face painted like the clown he is?
Uh-huh. That really works well where it has been shown that intimidation, bribery and falsification were the rule in a lot of districts. In other words: no. The entire point of having such an organisation as the OVSE is to judge whether elections have gone democratically or not, and if they haven't, to then notify the world that that was not a democratically president.Sovz said:
Oh, yes, obviously. I mean, with the country almost splitting intwine, Kuchma going to Russia for advice, Kuchma ignoring his parliaments decision that the elections were invalid, and even declaring that vote illegal, it is clear that they can all solve it by themselves.
Also, that last sentence is completely idiotic. This is not the cold war, the USA does not need military bases near Russia's borders at all, Russia is more or less a friend of the Western world even. If anything, the West wants the Ukraine to join it because, hey, the more the merrier. It has some economic advantages, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Also note that Yanukovich is supported by Putin, is also largely under the influence of Russia and would take measures that would help Russia, not the Ukraine. Such things as dual-citizenship (handy for Russia's required military service).
Then that would be it. Since when is it idiotic if an independent observer concludes fraud, and that then other countries declare that they do not accept those results? They're not forcing Ukraine to do anything, they are merely expressing their honest, and well-founded, opinions.
So completely and utterly besides the point. Tony Blair was elected in a fair, democratic process. Whether that was good is a second thing, but this has jack shit to do with his saying that the Ukraine election results are not valid.
Jesus fucking Christ could you have typed a sentence with more bullshit in it than this? "strongarm tactics"(What strongarm tactics?) "western stooge"(Western stooge because he thinks what a large part of the Ukrainian population thinks, and he's the only one who isn't under the spell of Putin?), "typical of anti-democratic processes"(Observing fraud, and then declaring the elections false because of fraud is anti-democratic, how?), "Washington" has, by the way, nothing to do with this, since the OVSE is not an American institution.
It was an act to show, yet again, that he doesn't agree with the results. What's your problem with that?
Oh, really, this is just too idiotic for words. You don't even say one thing, just one, about Yanukocivh, and you go off on a rant about Yuschenko looking like a fool, but not actually giving any reasons, facts or reasoning as to why this is so.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I just want to say that while I might not agree with Sander on politics, I agree 100% with what he just wrote.
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
I have no idea why Sovz talked like that...he's not like that normally. Sander you did a good job taking things apart...however Im trying to figure out why Sovz would say such things.
Glad to see the Ukranians have the power and judgement to do it themselves. I wish all people were like that.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
Glad to see the Ukranians have the power and judgement to do it themselves. I wish all people were like that.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
Sovz is Russian somewhere down the line (I think) His opinion is not uncommon. Yushchenko has been portrayed (and not entirely unfairly) as a trigger happy rebel determined to see himself in power or bloodshed in the streets. His recent actions (including calling Kuchma a traitor and criminal) have not improved this perception.
The Supreme Court has ruled a rerun of the election wil be required. The President (and Russia) are condeming this. They want new elections all together.
The Supreme Court has ruled a rerun of the election wil be required. The President (and Russia) are condeming this. They want new elections all together.
He is also a former member of the Canadian Communist Party (I think). Shame they didn't have another "C" word laying around.Commissar Lauren said:
I do not know if that has any bearing on his viewpoint, but with Russia acting increasingly like the soviet union it may do. Especially with him using phrasing like "western stooge"
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Canadian Communest Comrade's Party ?
And russian heritage isnt that uncommon, Im half Russian thru herritage (all the great grandparents on my moms side were imigrants)
And russian heritage isnt that uncommon, Im half Russian thru herritage (all the great grandparents on my moms side were imigrants)
The_Vault_Dweller said:
You’re right, it is unlike me, most of the time I really dont give a shit about politics.
But, on that particular day, I was stuck on Bloor St. for 20 minutes because some loony “Western Ukrainians” blocked the damn highway while waving their stupid orange flags. Needless to say, I was late and very pissed.