UN Diplomats Walkout During Ahmadinejad Speech

[Flop]

Justice.....your opinion of what is right and wrong is the part that is trivial. It holds no sway in the world. it is just words.

It's not just my opinion, it's shared by many, not least in the Middle East. For that reason, it's not trivial.

And yes the Israelis want it more for they have it.

I'm guessing you don't think US backing has anything to do with that?

The conference was a joke to begin with.

Agreed. Even more so after the walk-out.

It was warned that if anything remotely Anti-Semetic was uttered that the Europeans would walk.

This is what really made it a joke, considering how any criticism of Israel is construed as anti-semitism. Imagine a racism conference 20 years ago, at which it wasn't allowed to criticize South africa.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Snip

You go on about Giving it back....it was never given back, It was taken.

Their Claim is Valid? Valid to who? you? Claims of their validity are just matters of opinion. They say it is their right to be there for it is there ancient homeland, you say they have lost that right 2000 years ago. But it is all just words. The truth is they won a war and the others lost. That is in truth all the validity they need.

Yes, it was taken. 2000 years ago. Long time ago much? Maybe the Jews haven't noticed, but the world has changed quite a bit since then. Maybe its time they did the same.

Indeed, its just a matter of opinion. Which is why claiming their land is theirs because they inhabited it 2000 years ago is quite a dubious claim. You prove my point. (to put it in your words)

So winning a war makes them right? ''Might is right'' anyone? Seriously, I'm going to say it again, I can't argue with someone who has these views.

 

[TheGM]

Justice.....your opinion of what is right and wrong is the part that is trivial. It holds no sway in the world. it is just words.

It's not just my opinion, it's shared by many, not least in the Middle East. For that reason, it's not trivial.

A Shared Opinion is still an Opinion.

And yes the Israelis want it more for they have it.

I'm guessing you don't think US backing has anything to do with that?
.

It has a lot to do with it. But go tell that to South vietnam.

Yes, it was taken. 2000 years ago. Long time ago much? Maybe the Jews haven't noticed, but the world has changed quite a bit since then. Maybe its time they did the same.

Indeed, its just a matter of opinion. Which is why claiming their land is theirs because they inhabited it 2000 years ago is quite a dubious claim. You prove my point. (to put it in your words)

So winning a war makes them right? ''Might is right'' anyone? Seriously, I'm going to say it again, I can't argue with someone who has these views.

And the world has changed in the last 50 years....maybe the Arabs should just give up. See it is easy to make weak points like that.

Never said them winning the war was right or wrong. I said the War made them.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

So winning a war makes them right? ''Might is right'' anyone?

Pretty much, and westerners nowadays wouldn't be in a position to assume a moral high ground and lecture people with real problems about what is and isn't right if their countries hadn't historically adhered to that maxim to the letter. It's one of those fundamental truths the West would do well to remember, lest it wishes to be doomed to decline and eventual destruction at the hands of its many enemies (such as Muslims... I know, it's ironic).

 

[cronicler]

Don't bring us into this Ratty. We are content with bashing the guys in other Village if you just keep quiet.

Ah also we kill any person that tries to make us better. I mean we are conditioned to be mindless and illiterate sheep unlike you literate and mindless sheep.

I am still filled with awe when i think about how far our culture has fallen down.

Anyway, anyone that can look at this military matter can see it clearly. Israel does not have the capability to recondition Palestinians and they can't use the slave workforce for most of their needs. (Ok Ok not slave. just .5 dollar minus food,taxes and whatnot per day workers.)

They will have to kick everyone non Israel citizen out and then go Fortress Israel and drown in their own walls.

You can't have real peace in Middle East. The region is just based on clan structures and unless some external thing is given as target, people just butcher each other. Mr Bear and Mr Eagle managed to pump enough gas onto the radicals to counter each other so there is just no stable body in the region.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

And the world has changed in the last 50 years....maybe the Arabs should just give up. See it is easy to make weak points like that.

Never said them winning the war was right or wrong. I said the War made them.

Weak points? 50 years is less than a life time. 2000 years is not. I don't see how you cant see there is a difference there.

You basically said winning the war had given them the right to stay there.

Pretty much, and westerners nowadays wouldn't be in a position to assume a moral high ground and lecture people with real problems about what is and isn't right if their countries hadn't historically adhered to that maxim to the letter. It's one of those fundamental truths the West would do well to remember, lest it wishes to be doomed to decline and eventual destruction at the hands of its many enemies (such as Muslims... I know, it's ironic).

Not to delve too far into speculation and philosophy, but is it possible to 'lecture' that kind of morality through any other way? That experience is needed, its almost a priori.

That said, im not lecturing anyone or representing anyone but myself here, I was responding to The GM's claim that because they won the war they had a right to that land. Historically that may be the case, but then don't complain when your subdued peoples revolt and throw stones (or rockets) at your windows.

 

[cronicler]

Chancellor Kremlin:
There is no Right or Wrong or Morality or other people level concepts when talking about international level.

If you win/won then you are the good guy. Period fucking dot. There has been many many things buried under the victory laurels.

Israel has shown that they have the right to be there because they won, they won and they won again. No one can talk about their terrorist past or any other thing. Oh they can talk but thats the extend of it.

World is not a safe place. There isn't any stable local level infuluencal government once you get past Urals.

People forget that outside Europe, Nations survive by force of arms and die by the lack of it.

Hell you are a Brazilian (I think) you know what happens when someone else manages to get its hooks into the government and uses your country for their own needs when your country's guard falls down by trusting the diplomacy alone...

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Chancellor Kremlin:
There is no Right or Wrong or Morality or other people level concepts when talking about international level.

If you win/won then you are the good guy. Period fucking dot. There has been many many things buried under the victory laurels.

Israel has shown that they have the right to be there because they won, they won and they won again. No one can talk about their terrorist past or any other thing. Oh they can talk but thats the extend of it.

World is not a safe place. There isn't any stable local level infuluencal government once you get past Urals.

People forget that outside Europe, Nations survive by force of arms and die by the lack of it.

Hell you are a Brazilian (I think) you know what happens when someone else manages to get its hooks into the government and uses your country for their own needs when your country's guard falls down by trusting the diplomacy alone...

Im not saying anything is right or wrong, this is something people seem to be associating with me for some reason. I said the claim of Israel to palestine because of the ancestral link is invalid, that is what I said.

Their presence in that area in the last 50 years is 'right' insofar as they are willing to accept that the people in their 'conquered' lands will terrorise them till kingdom come. You can't be given somebodys partitioned land, defend yourself, conquer even more land than you were given, and then expect to be 'in the right'.

 

[cronicler]

I think the "bad" or "evil" part has been the half measures. There was a minimal chance to coexist peacefully which burned down thanks to Egypt and Syria. Since then the suffering goes on and on as there are still noncombatant non Israel people left there.

The "human" suffering will continue until Israel kicks everyone out. Of course if they do that half the west (the liberals or what you want to call them) will just declare them black. It is no-no to end life even when every moment of thet life is agony and all that.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Not only do Israelites continue to successfully weather these attacks, but in a few short decades they managed to turn an undeveloped and unproductive Arab province into an agricultural and industrial power. That alone is a strong argument in favor of their continued rule in Palestine, even if you disregard the notions of historical justice and ancestral links.

They really didn't turn it into an agricultural and industrial power, the UN, more specifically the US, did. If the US hadn't been providing them with boat loads of money and supplies, particularly military supplies, they would have been DOA.

On topic though, Ahmadinejad has never been presented accurately by the media. I'm not saying that I'm a fan of his but every word he's ever said has been twisted until it sounded completely wrong. They do that to anyone who disagrees with the most popular opinion. Check any Ron Paul interview to see what I mean. When it comes to Israel or Jews, you know he's not even going to be listened to.

He brings a lot of it upon himself. Now I'm not saying that the televised press covers him objectively because they don't cover anything objectively, they are entertainment and vying for maximum viewer ship, but quality media does a pretty good job covering him fairly. If the man took a non-religious, non-genocidal approach to his rhetoric he would be listened to with a lot more care by the west. The problem is that he's a bigot and he makes no attempt to hid it in his speeches. Still, to some degree what he says is being said for political reasons and the political atmosphere in the Middle-East is completely different than it is in the west.

They aren't content with what they have, they want more, and more and more, and they're using their Western and European backing to take what they want, because they know they can.

That's not entirely true, they did conquer land in retaliation for being attacked but they did give what they conquered from Egypt back to them when they signed a peace treaty. That said, the Plalestinian-Israeli conflict is an unpleasant one and both sides are equally at fault because neither is interested in peaceful cohabitation.

If any finger should be pointed, it should be those that engineered this conflict that get pointed at, not the actors in the play.

No, everyone should be blamed for their mistakes which does mean that those responsible for starting the situation should receive their proper share.

This would not be so much a issue if people would just decide to follow their gods and for once listen to what is in their books like "you shall not kill", which counts for all 3 of those Abrahamic religions.

Well their God isn't exactly very clear about that as what he says, what he does, and what his proxies do don't exactly agree.

So far they have proven they want it a lot more then anybody else.

Sieg heil!! Oh I'm sorry, bad habit, you were saying?

Anyway, with regards to the actual topic, I think it's shameful that the diplomats walked out. If you can't call a racist state racist, at a conference about racism, without the western world throwing a tantrum, why even bother?

I think that the bigger problem is that it wasn't about racism, it was about speaking poorly about Israel (or so the reports say). If it was about his racism, something which was undeniably there, it would be more understandable but that wasn't the pre-stated reason.

It was warned that if anything remotely Anti-Semetic was uttered that the Europeans would walk. Thankfully they stayed the course and followed through with the plan.
The message was sent that we will not tolerate Ahmadinejad's rhetoric and that the Western World will stand united to defend Israel and its right to exist.

Actually they warned about anything being anti-Israel, not anti-semitic, from what I've read. If you can't point out the problems with a country it's hard to fix it. It's absurd how protective the west is about Israel, if you criticize it then they chastise you for it, it's absurd.

You go on about Giving it back....it was never given back, It was taken.

Their Claim is Valid? Valid to who? you? Claims of their validity are just matters of opinion. They say it is their right to be there for it is there ancient homeland, you say they have lost that right 2000 years ago. But it is all just words. The truth is they won a war and the others lost. That is in truth all the validity they need.

Actually the UN gave it to them and then supplied them with what they needed to conquer the whole region if they so chose.

Im not saying anything is right or wrong, this is something people seem to be associating with me for some reason. I said the claim of Israel to palestine because of the ancestral link is invalid, that is what I said.

Their presence in that area in the last 50 years is 'right' insofar as they are willing to accept that the people in their 'conquered' lands will terrorise them till kingdom come. You can't be given somebodys partitioned land, defend yourself, conquer even more land than you were given, and then expect to be 'in the right'.

Indeed. They conquered the land and thus they control it, the only people with a right to the land are the people who live there, not because that is what is morally correct but because that is what is politically and historically correct. That said, it's ridiculous that the West supports Israel as much as they do, it's about damn time that they cut the fucking umbilical cord and started looking at them like any other nation.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Snip

Exactly.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Actually they warned about anything being anti-Israel, not anti-semitic, from what I've read. If you can't point out the problems with a country it's hard to fix it. It's absurd how protective the west is about Israel, if you criticize it then they chastise you for it, it's absurd.

Anything equating Zionism with racism or addressing the "issue" of Jews and Israel is not going to go over well and be labeled as anti-semetic.

"The UK unreservedly condemns Iranian President Ahmadinejad's offensive and inflammatory comments. Such outrageous, anti-Semitic remarks should have no place in a U.N. anti-racism forum," said Peter Gooderham, Britain's envoy to the U.N. in Geneva.

The Western World recognizes and supports Israels right to exist. That is something Ahmadinejad and his ilk are going to have to learn to live with.

That said, it's ridiculous that the West supports Israel as much as they do, it's about damn time that they cut the fucking umbilical cord and started looking at them like any other nation.

Good luck with that, it will never happen in the foreseeable future. If there is one thing I can say I love about our current administration it is that Obama and Biden to an even greater extent appear to be very Pro-Israeli.

"If I were a Jew, I would be a Zionist. I am a Zionist. You don’t have to be a Jew to be a Zionist."

- Senator Joseph Biden

``I am chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee,'' Biden said. ``I give you my word as a Biden - I would not have given up that job to be Barack Obama's vice president if I didn't in my gut and in my heart and in my head know that Barack Obama is exactly where I am on Israel. And he is.''


Music to my ears.

 

[coliphorbs]

I'm seeing a lot of comments here where the Israeli administration is being blamed for using "This place was ours 2000 years ago!" as an argument to justify their existence and geographic location. I myself cannot recall when this statement (or anything along this vein) was ever used officially, but do remember that what really brought the establishment of a Jewish state was, first and foremost, them being slaughtered like pigs in Europe, and no Zionist conspiracy. They were, essentially, cast out.

(Food for thought: If Hitler had succeeded in establishing a jewish province in Israel/Palestine as he had initially planned, would he be hailed as the second coming of Cyrus?)

 

[TheGM]

That said, it's ridiculous that the West supports Israel as much as they do, it's about damn time that they cut the fucking umbilical cord and started looking at them like any other nation.

.

Pretty sure I didn't type that......

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

That said, it's ridiculous that the West supports Israel as much as they do, it's about damn time that they cut the fucking umbilical cord and started looking at them like any other nation.

.

Pretty sure I didn't type that......

Fixed. Not sure what happened there.

 

[SkynetV4]

While I think that Jews have a right to a place to live, I think that the place that was given to them was retarded and moronic.

There was considerable resistance to their establishment in that are, yet the UN went ahead with the partitioning of Palestine, ensuring that there would be endless warfare to this day. Couldn't a demilitarized zone be created elsewhere....perhaps in a region that would be more accepting? The main powers: the SU and the USA had more than enough landmass to afford absconding with a small piece for the Jews. Instead, they have placed them in a crucible that has forged them into an uncompromising military force and a hardy people...yet that very same crucible has stained them with a dangerous principle: that might makes right and that as long as Big Brother backs you up, you can do what you want. This, is a very scary state of affairs.

In the end, I think that Israel needs not fear their hostile neighbors...they are too incompetent to be any dangerous. They even outnumbered their one rival and were defeated. More than twice.

 

[Patton89]

Honestly both sides , Israel and Palestines are at fault.
Israel has stronger military and a position of superiority yet it doesnt even consider the possibility of letting palestines live normally, and allow them to geet unlimited medical supplies and food.And a lot of palestines dont even accept the existance of Israel, and want to wipe it out of the world map.
Fundamentalists are to be blamed on both sides, but i personally consider Israel to be more responsible NOW as they have more power. They are not in real danger from their neighbours anymore.
Historically if arabs had allowed israel to exist there wouldnt have been a problem, but that does not justify israels actions.

Currently Israel exists, and nothing can be done to move them, the location has been set, And now we must deal with the bad choice of area. I do think jews have a right to a country as any people have. Again, this does not justify murdering civilians and causing humanitarian problems and confining palestines into a small area, and taking the land designated to them.

If UN had formed Israel in Europe, i doubt the problems would have been as large as they are now. Give them parts of Germany or Austria, the two nations at fault. or hell if i had had the power i would have created israel in Sweden or Finland, both countries have too many forests and are relatively unpopulated so there is plenty of room, and the climate is better than dry ass desert.

If Israel keeps doing these acts, we cant support them. How can we support something like that without undermining the values that are considered to define the west. (human rights , freedom)

 

[cronicler]

I think you are missing the middle-east mentality.
It has become based on hate and blood feuds from time immemorial. Now and then there are extremely charismatic leaders or foreigners with extremely heavy forces who can pacify and unite the region. Other than those rare incidents the whole area is a cauldron of artificial clans that hate other clans.
The world's leading powers have been pumping hate into the region in one form or other for more than 200 years. It wouldn't change if Israel was pacifist or fashist. They are more different than other clans so they are hated more. Heh if you want to understand how deep backstabbing goes just look for the list of nations that were backstabbed by them.

 

[Patton89]

I have read my history you know.
Both the soviets and USA supplied both sides with weapons and funding, arabs and Israel, in their fun little game.
Not to mention England and other countries in the past have had their fingers in the mess .

The entire region has a long history of warfare and bloodshed, but so has europe. Just 400 years ago we were busy killing each other because of different type of christianity. 90 years ago we killed other europeans in millions and repeated that 20 years later.
And also assuming that the area is just ethnic groups is old fashioned,while perhaps historically accurate, does not really reflect the current situation well.

Its rather odd to assume that Israels actions are meaningless and without consequence.
Now obviously if israel is the only one to change their policies, it wont change everything, but it would be better than doing what they are doing now , they are not helping the stability of the region.
Obviously palestines and arabs would need to change their views too, and thats going to take a large amount of effort and time. Iran and its religious leaders arent doing anybody a favour by fervantly saying "wipe ISRAEL"
100 years of hatred between the jews and arabs is hard to repair, but it isnt impossible.

 

[maximaz]

While I think that Jews have a right to a place to live, I think that the place that was given to them was retarded and moronic.

There was considerable resistance to their establishment in that are, yet the UN went ahead with the partitioning of Palestine, ensuring that there would be endless warfare to this day. Couldn't a demilitarized zone be created elsewhere....perhaps in a region that would be more accepting? The main powers: the SU and the USA had more than enough landmass to afford absconding with a small piece for the Jews. Instead, they have placed them in a crucible that has forged them into an uncompromising military force and a hardy people...yet that very same crucible has stained them with a dangerous principle: that might makes right and that as long as Big Brother backs you up, you can do what you want. This, is a very scary state of affairs.

That's pretty much what he's been saying: if Europe killed Jews, why are they giving them someone else's land, where they are not wanted. Why not give them a piece of their own land. Palestinians had nothing to do with Holocaust, why should they be repaying the debt. What he says makes a lot of sense, sometimes. Unfortunately, he can be very inconsistent when it comes to making sense.

If the man took a non-religious, non-genocidal approach to his rhetoric he would be listened to with a lot more care by the west.

I don't think so. Today, one can't even hint displeasure or disagreement with the west, without having their credibility and image crucified.

Also, I never heard Ahmedinijad say anything about Jews directly. On Larry King, he said that he had never hated on Jews, only Israel. I think that he can say some pretty harsh things, sometimes, that are a bit out there and over the top but they have always been directed at the state of Israel. Even when those diplomats decided to show disrespect by walking out, he just started talking about Israel. Anti-semitism had nothing to do with it.

Believe me, I don't support Ahmedinijad. I don't think a man like him should ever be in charge of a country. However, he gets more disrespect and ridicule than those who deserve it much more.