US slams 'criminals' behind WikiLeaks

Mettle said:
From what I remember Assange saying, they'd never release anything that is directly harmful or dangerous to people operating in the field. They have morals, they just don't agree with governments not having transparancy.

The irony here is palpable:

Wikileaks' strongest argument is that a democracy cannot run without an interested and fairly suspicious populace looking after its government. In short, that we cannot take the government's word for it.

And so we must take Assange's word that he's smarter than the legions of military and intelligence analysts and diplomats on what's dangerous or not to operatives in the field?

Wikileaks got middlemen killed in Afghanistan when it exposed America's tribulations with Pakistan. And while even that, while controversial, was arguably important for the American populace to understand Pakistan's double-dealings, I fail to see the big secret exposed in this latest data dump on diplomatic missives.

All the latest exposition has served is to give American diplomats a black eye: The American people learned nothing new about the world, diplomacy is not going to be dramatically changed for the better (indeed, this is pretty much how diplomacy has been done since time immemorial), and the government now knows how to hide its stuff better if we're ever to really do some realpoliticking.

In fact, it kinda seems like Assange is doing it to stroke his own ego more than any deep philosophical underpinnings - indeed, he certainly seems to be enjoying his newfound celebrity. Jon Stewart's and the NYTimes' analyses were spot-on: Far from being this generation's Pentagon Papers, all Assange and Wikileaks have succeeded in doing is making it difficult for the administration to conduct straight-forward diplomacy.

And, like the GOP's current stonewalling vis a vis tax cuts, Assange is undoubtedly contributing to making government ungovernable.
 
Has Diplomacy ever been "straight forward"? If it was at some point, I wouldn't blame Wikileaks, I'd blame the state of international affairs today, brought on by our government, going into Iraq was a huge blow to our credibility and the fact that almost every country thought Bush was a backwards redneck.
 
thegaresexperience said:
Has Diplomacy ever been "straight forward"? If it was at some point, I wouldn't blame Wikileaks, I'd blame the state of international affairs today, brought on by our government, going into Iraq was a huge blow to our credibility and the fact that almost every country thought Bush was a backwards redneck.

Getting Saudi Arabia to guarantee oil shipments to China so that China would agree to economic sanctions against Iran is one HELL of a lot more straight-forward and less despicable than selling weapons through an embargo to Iran in order to fund Nicaraguan rebels and release Lebanese prisoners.
 
Crni Vuk said:
thegaresexperience said:
Wikileaks shows us what really happened, without any of the useless sensationalism.
Though do they really ? Who tells us we dont see more "wrong" informations in the future when Wikileaks grows biger.

Its not like everything on Wikipedia is correct either. An hoax can be easily identified as such. But untill that it might be to late when the inforation already went around the word.

There are still people which believe buzz cola and mentos let their guts explode ...

Wikileaks does not control the flow of information and probably never will (mainly due to lack of revenue), so any hoax would not survive long.
 
given the speed informations spread around today, who says it has to stay for "long" to do some damage.

Its far easier to tell people a lie then explain them the truth.
 
Oy vey, I'm so confused about this issue. On one side, I feel like it's right to want to force our governments to be honest and fight for true democracy by releasing this information, especially because it reveals things that the USA did that were certainly wrong and that people deserve to know.

But on the other hand, I think that if we're honest the government will not change at all. This might cause them some embarrassment but if there is action required it is easier to "arrange" for the destruction of wikileaks than to restructure the entire government, weed out corruption, etc. In fact, the documents released basically prove that this is the case. And I don't really trust Assange's motivations here either. He could be in this for a lot of reasons, and no one is entirely pure in their intent.
 
I'm gonna go with Ron Paul on this one "In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth, in a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble."
 
cogar66 said:
I'm gonna go with Ron Paul on this one "In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth, in a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble."

Perhaps you would like to have the locations of every United States military arsenal broadcast on national TV? After all, it would keep the government honest. Don't mind about all the dangers. Or all the list of troop movements in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Extreme examples, but when you demand to know "the truth" (whatever that is nowadays) you have to face the repercussions.

EDIT: Also, the government must keep secrets to survive. I know that Libertarians believe that the government must stay out of everything, but as "nice" or "ideal" as that would be it would not work in practice. There has to be a governing body which legislates things, which-- sure-- keeps some secrets.
 
Little Robot said:
cogar66 said:
I'm gonna go with Ron Paul on this one "In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth, in a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble."

Perhaps you would like to have the locations of every United States military arsenal broadcast on national TV? After all, it would keep the government honest. Don't mind about all the dangers. Or all the list of troop movements in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Extreme examples, but when you demand to know "the truth" (whatever that is nowadays) you have to face the repercussions.

EDIT: Also, the government must keep secrets to survive. I know that Libertarians believe that the government must stay out of everything, but as "nice" or "ideal" as that would be it would not work in practice. There has to be a governing body which legislates things, which-- sure-- keeps some secrets.

Gonna quote someone else, "Now, obviously some things need to remain secret, like ya know, troop positions and stuff like that. Although, I think troop positions should read like this: "All troops are within our borders watching MTV waiting for someone to attack us" because if we didn't have imperialistic wars we wouldn't have to have secret troop positions..." Keep our troops out of everyone's business. Why would a non-intervention foreign policy "not work in practice" ? Anything that has to do with legislating laws which are supposed to be FOR the people BY the people shouldn't need to be kept in the dark.
 
cogar66 said:
Gonna quote someone else, "Now, obviously some things need to remain secret, like ya know, troop positions and stuff like that. Although, I think troop positions should read like this: "All troops are within our borders watching MTV waiting for someone to attack us" because if we didn't have imperialistic wars we wouldn't have to have secret troop positions..." Keep our troops out of everyone's business. Why would a non-intervention foreign policy "not work in practice" ? Anything that has to do with legislating laws which are supposed to be FOR the people BY the people shouldn't need to be kept in the dark.

No, I understand what you're saying. I just think that in practice, democracy doesn't work that way. If every single person voted on every issue, nothing would ever get done. This is the entirely democratic approach. One step up is having elected representatives. This immediately introduces corruption, etc.

And frankly, quoting the Gettysburg Address-- a speech written by a president who supported a strong central government, by the way-- won't get you any points in my book. Especially since it says nothing about having legislation by the people.

Any form of government, in practice, has at least some level of secrets and corruption. The only alternative to this is basically anarchy, which I'd say is much worse. I'm not supporting the bad things that the government did, and I don't think that they should have done them, but what happens when wikileaks leaks something that has real significance to the war, for example? Even without realizing it they could slip and leak something which leads to disaster.
 
Little Robot said:
And frankly, quoting the Gettysburg Address-- a speech written by a president who supported a strong central government, by the way-- won't get you any points in my book. Especially since it says nothing about having legislation by the people.
Wait, what? The entire idea is the people vote for representatives who support their ideas and will make legislation that they support. People--->Representative--->Legislation. Therefore, the legislation is by the people.

Little Robot said:
No, I understand what you're saying. I just think that in practice, democracy doesn't work that way. If every single person voted on every issue, nothing would ever get done. This is the entirely democratic approach. One step up is having elected representatives. This immediately introduces corruption, etc.
This is a straw man. I never said I supported direct democracy. I believe in order for the government to be as close to uncorrupted as possible the people who vote for representatives need to be informed about what their representatives are actually voting on. They also need to be informed about their governments dirty little secrets so they can change things.

Little Robot said:
Any form of government, in practice, has at least some level of secrets and corruption. The only alternative to this is basically anarchy, which I'd say is much worse. I'm not supporting the bad things that the government did, and I don't think that they should have done them, but what happens when wikileaks leaks something that has real significance to the war, for example? Even without realizing it they could slip and leak something which leads to disaster.
First off, having organizations like WikiLeaks keeps governments LESS corrupt, I never said that it was possible to end corruption. Secondly, the truth is worth the risks, and if something they leak leads to disaster odds are that it was something that shouldn't have been happening in the first place.
 
Like with the diplomatic cables, is it actually going to help the downtrodden average joe or they doing it just because they can?

The latter. And frankly, it more likely hurts the average person more than it benefits him either.
 
Lets be realistic folks.

There are lots of different people out tehre.

1. The leadership cast. These folks have a passion for power, leadership, money, idealism, etc. These folks will sacrfice anything and everything to achieve their results.

2. Average joe. These folks either do not have the passion or do not have the "right stuff" to join the leadership cast or the number 3 group.. As long as they have their food, luxury, entertainment, they could care less.

3. Idealist and otherwise normal folks who care, but not enough to obtain teh resources to really put the screws to the number 1 folks. Sure they might do some ankle biting but any direct confrontation and serious operation would lead to disaster. If these folks really did have what it takes they would be categorized into the number 1 slots and most likely be horrified at what they became.

2 will always be lied to. Its the result of not caring and not desiring power. Sheep prefer to be led than to leading themselves.

3 are in almost the same boat as number 2 but with some differences. These are the armchair philosophers, those folks who want to make a difference but do not have the necesary power and ruthlessness or skills to do so.

Wikileaks has thier own agenda and so far its to be popular and be in the spotlight. These folks are not smart or ruthless or powerful enough to do direct battle with the number 1 folks and so they release shit that would most likely hurt folks who were following orders and NOT the guys GIVING them. Thats what I dislike about wikileaks.
 
Little Robot said:
Crni Vuk said:
I am curious now that as Island or Sweden (no clue right now) is searching for Juilian Assange via interpol as molester of 2 females how he is thinking about that part "leaking" to the public. What ever if the story is true or not I am not saying he did it and at the moment they only "search" for him he is not convicted. But again a bit more transparency in "his" life might not hurt either no.

I'm also interested in how that's turning out. I've read a couple sources which sort of implied that the charges were trumped up because of the leak, but I don't really trust them.

Don't know about "sources" though, I read Assange Case: Evidence destroyed over and over again wich only really touches on one of the women. It's quite suspicious when you consider the supposed timeline and supposed actions.

And before people go on about transparancy and openness, this is borderline slander of a single person; He has'nt been sentanced for anything.

Nalano said:
The irony here is palpable:

Wikileaks' strongest argument is that a democracy cannot run without an interested and fairly suspicious populace looking after its government. In short, that we cannot take the government's word for it.

And so we must take Assange's word that he's smarter than the legions of military and intelligence analysts and diplomats on what's dangerous or not to operatives in the field?

Wikileaks got middlemen killed in Afghanistan when it exposed America's tribulations with Pakistan. And while even that, while controversial, was arguably important for the American populace to understand Pakistan's double-dealings, I fail to see the big secret exposed in this latest data dump on diplomatic missives.

All the latest exposition has served is to give American diplomats a black eye: The American people learned nothing new about the world, diplomacy is not going to be dramatically changed for the better (indeed, this is pretty much how diplomacy has been done since time immemorial), and the government now knows how to hide its stuff better if we're ever to really do some realpoliticking.

In fact, it kinda seems like Assange is doing it to stroke his own ego more than any deep philosophical underpinnings - indeed, he certainly seems to be enjoying his newfound celebrity. Jon Stewart's and the NYTimes' analyses were spot-on: Far from being this generation's Pentagon Papers, all Assange and Wikileaks have succeeded in doing is making it difficult for the administration to conduct straight-forward diplomacy.

And, like the GOP's current stonewalling vis a vis tax cuts, Assange is undoubtedly contributing to making government ungovernable.

The analysts do have secondary motives and are hired by the US government, incidentally - it was a supposed US intelligence analyst that leaked the files to Wikileaks in the first place.

Dumping the diplomatic missives might have hurt the US government, but they did show some interesting things that probably have'nt been given alot of newstime over there; Like the US underhanded dealings in the Norwegian Airforce deal where they were choosing between JAS 39 Gripen and JSF.
I don't know if there are similar things that have been brought to light in other countries that have been reported locally, but I don't doubt it.

Not everything is about the american people, even though you'd like it to be so.
 
Mettle said:
Not everything is about the american people, even though you'd like it to be so.

When a quarter-million American diplomatic missives are exposed for the world to see, it's about America. It affects the American people. Ergo, in this case, it very much is about the American people.

And what do you think Assange's motive is?

What elected body commissioned him?

Where is the line of representation between him and the American people?
 
Mettle said:
And before people go on about transparancy and openness, this is borderline slander of a single person; He has'nt been sentanced for anything.
No, but it would be nice to know how he made his "money" in the past, as he said over the internet and more then enough to remain independ. Now I am curious what does this mean "in the internet?".

Assanage is a rather questionable character in my eyes. Even if not a criminal but I have my doubts that the decision what is a secret and what not should not be left to him. Or his assistants for that matter.
 
Nalano said:
What elected body commissioned him?

Where is the line of representation between him and the American people?

I'd like to know what elected body commisioned the Founding Fathers or what was the representation between them and the original American people.
 
So Assange wants that goverments and companies and whatnot make all informations they have available to everyone, while he himself isn't willing to make all his informations available.
And on top he looks like some Bond villian or bad movie villian?

I love this oh so hilarious world.
 
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