V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by HoKa, Nov 3, 2008.

  1. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    You dont seem to understand I was not the one who called it bullet time and was just going back to something he previously said.

    Played Max Payne and hated it.
     
  2. metalboss44

    metalboss44 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    155
    Jun 19, 2007
    Well, I saw the unarmed DAD npc pick up a baseball bat on the way to Rivet City.
     
  3. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    ^^What I meant is that bullet time implies that you're still getting shot at. All that bullet time does is slow down time so you can react better, and maybe give the player a teeensy bit of extra speed. You were pointing out the obvious and not making sense.

    ^Well, I've seen some of that too, but they're not doing it as well as they should. I mean, why would I bring out a 10mm when I have a rocket launcher lying hext to me?
     
  4. anony

    anony First time out of the vault

    3
    Nov 2, 2008
    I'm pretty sure they can pick things up off of the ground. At Super-Duper Mart I crippled a raiders arm and she ran off. Chased her all over the place and eventually she pulled the Firelance on me, which she must have found off of the ground on this occassion. Had to reload and kill her without her getting near it, which is a shame as I could not find it for ages, until a zoned in and saw it do that daft "all items drop from the sky NOW!" rubbish.

    As for VATs being a cheat... You don't have to use it if you don't want to. I seem to do better in gun-fights without it, really. For melee though, it takes away the daft "run up to each other, rub against each other, one of you dies" factor. At least the animations are cool and give some sort of flow to the melee.
     
  5. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    The animations are largely annoying rather than cool. All that VATS needs is a tad more balancing, and it could turn into a pretty decent "entity".
     
  6. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    You are "still being shot at" in the vats system. You just take considerably less damage while you are in it. The world around you does not freeze, you can still see bullets hitting you and just a few moments ago a death claw was gutting me while I was shooting it with a plasma rifle in Vats.
     
  7. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    Which is why I just said that vats resembles bullet time except for no control over the character during the cinematic sequence. Bullet time already implies you can be hit, so "bullet time while you're being hit" is unnecessary repetition.
     
  8. cratchety ol joe

    cratchety ol joe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    491
    Sep 2, 2008
    I agree in principle of these statements, (I have some amateur background of writing table-top games systems) a combat system is the methods by which all things interact

    The most basic way to explain this
    all characters have 2 hit points
    each round 1 character can inflict 1 hit point of damage to any 1 other character
    if a character has 0 hit points it is dead.

    now imagine in the above example if one 'special' character can do 2 hit points of damage. just that one character, no one else. and the character gets to do this simply because he wants to.

    The logical thing would be to expect a 'balance' in a games combat system, and as such all characters should have the ability to choose to do 2 hit points of damage.

    end of silly example-------

    In the Fallout S.P.E.C.I.A.L system (most notable if you ever played the PnP) Everyone has the option of making an aimed shot. Ok in the fallout games FO1 FO2 the only 'aimed' attacks against a PC were critical location attacks, but i still think that counts toward balance of the PC being able to actually use the aiming function. So yes, the argument that VATS being exclusive to the PC is a logical one, it unbalances the combat unfairly in the favour of the PC, now if there is proof that there is within the game engine the equivalent of VATS for the use of other game combatants I'd be a lot happier.

    hmmm, Super Mutant + VATS/bullet time + Minigun Vs player character in 'realtime'
     
  9. Gooscar

    Gooscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    105
    Oct 28, 2008
    I wouldn't say VATS is a full on cheat god-mode no miss situation.

    I've been killed a few times trying to chip away supermutants when their buddy kept unloading a minigun into my body cavity. Grenades also explode well next to me. True it cuts down the amount of damage, but it doesn't put a protective bubble around me.

    Also in another part of the map, I've shot at feral ghouls darting around a pillared room, and often they ducked behind one of those pillars in the middle of the VATS playout, making my shots wasted.

    In general it's a case of "error in the favor of the player".
     
  10. zioburosky13

    zioburosky13 Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 24, 2004
    The common strategy to fight is run and strafe those bullets, enter V.A.T mode and pump some lead into the skull of your foe.

    Geez, sounds like Quake with Bullet time to me. :ugly:
     
  11. Gooscar

    Gooscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    105
    Oct 28, 2008
    I've found strafing doesn't help avoid bullets, just missiles, grenades, and other slow moving projectiles. In fact sometimes it's more effective to stand and shoot than duck and dodge. Either that or charge straight in and club the pistol toting sissy with my bat.
     
  12. merlin

    merlin First time out of the vault

    5
    Nov 3, 2008
    as f3 is an rpg and rpg should imho be no shooter where a lvl 1 char can take out whole super mutant army just because the player is good at fps.

    thus you cant call vats a "cheat". i think f3 birdges the gap of boring combat and strategic options well enough. it is something you can build on. not saying its perfekt, but a good start and a promising crossover.
     
  13. zioburosky13

    zioburosky13 Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 24, 2004

    I manage to kill almost everyone in vault 101 without breaking a sweat, even in hard mode. The game is too easy for every fps player out there. :ugly:
     
  14. Bloody William

    Bloody William First time out of the vault

    41
    Oct 31, 2008
    Vault 101 is the freaking tutorial! I'm sorry you didn't get another Temple of Quickload in this game, but I can assure you the difficulty ramps up a fair bit once you leave.
     
  15. zioburosky13

    zioburosky13 Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 24, 2004
    Well I find the game is still easy in hard mode because I can circle strafe and shoot things. :ugly:
     
  16. merlin

    merlin First time out of the vault

    5
    Nov 3, 2008
    Well if you abuse flaws in the game engine…don't do it ;)

    Nonetheless I expect Bethesda to get rid of these bugs and I hope they improve the AI.

    I could imagine having your skills influence the fps mode a bite more so that the hit chance diminishes with range etc. I would also love to see the hit chance when targeting in fps mode. Call it ranged vats or something.
     
  17. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    IMO

    VATS is a RTwP combat system, in FPP, with slo-motion/bullet-time sequance.

    In Planescape:Torment, KOTOR- they used RTwP as well, and in P:T only you could paus the game.

    Thanks to VATS, you can pause the game when the grenade is coming right at you. It makes it to feel like cheating and that what is VATS mostly about- semi-cheating thanks to RTwP. Thanks to this, FO3 is easy as making a sandwich with butter.
     
  18. zioburosky13

    zioburosky13 Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 24, 2004
    Now that would be pretty unpleasant for seeing tons of percentage number on an enemy while trying to shoot it.

    V.A.T. is basically bullet time coated with SPECIAL sweetness . And definitely not turn-based.
     
  19. Photeus

    Photeus First time out of the vault

    17
    Oct 25, 2008
    If anyone has noticed, most of the time when you shoot a weapon out of an enemy's hand (I do this a lot with rocket launchers) the weapon gets 'broken' such that it has no durability and cannot be fired.

    Enemies will pickup unbroken weapons, but they are smart enough to ignore broken ones that don't fire.

    I disagree that VATs is cheating - I do wish it was more accurate for ranged weapons while you were far from the enemy, because it'd make my old hunting rifle a lot more useful.
     
  20. merlin

    merlin First time out of the vault

    5
    Nov 3, 2008
    well one percentage would do: to hit the mob /spot i am targetting.

    well i am not that a purist. i dont need turns if there is some better idea. if vats is extended to a command queue where you can post movement and shooting orders like in some trategy games i would even like it better.

    just pause the game and issue your orders and watch. especially in vats mode the animations are nice imho.