V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system

[Crni Vuk]

He's admitting they had to make a trade-off, big deal.

But hey, an opportunity to piss on Bethesda, so you damn well should take it! High-Five!

You think?

Now whats more important for you in a RPG. Dialogues or visuals ?
Dont worry. Bethesda decided already for you (and everyone):

“Dialogue wasn't a battle we wanted to pick. There were other things that were more important for us to spend time and energy on… we just don't have unlimited monkeys and typewriters.”
- Pete Hines, a spokesperson for the Reading Foundation.

This is seriously not just "one quote" or something. Its their whole concept of how to design "RPG's" since Oblivion (cause a good RPG is killing some stuff with a sword and ridding a horse! if you ask some of them for Oblivion). That is quite depressing if you ask me.

*
Edit
Its indicative for their whole mindset around games. Particularly RPGs and how they tend to develope games. Now by just a simple comparision to other game makers (like Interplay or Blizzard) they tend to spend on projects of the scope and detail like Fallout more a lot more on the concept phase and the design before making the actual game. Why? Well to just avoid such "plot holes" and mistakes. And frankly both Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 contain a lot less mistakes in the story compared directly to Fallout 3. I would even say any game from Blizzard or Bioware is more consistend (when it comes about the dialogues/story only) cause they spend enough time in "pre-production". But this is the visual age ... Bethesda has computers, and money, and electricity and money. They dont need a "script". Thats what you needed 20 years ago in a RPG maybe! A scipt, and story and quests and such. But this is the visual age!

Basically... they ran out of time to do it right?

*facepalm* - well not like this isn't common in the industry

At least do the story and how followers interact with the story WAY before you are in that "shit we gotta fix stuff in time phase"

You can ask Garlic if you like, he will agree that the way how Bethesda is making "games" could be described by usual definitions in software engineering at best as "naive" and "sloopy" at worst.

 

[Herr Mike]

Look, you guys have some vendetta against them and that's fine. I personally don't get it. Fallout 3 does not seem to be of any lesser quality than any other game I've played. I'm just not that into the gamer culture so I can't quite grasp your emotional distress with Bethesda. I mean, I liked Diablo but thought Diablo 2 was a moronic click-fest, but I never felt the need to go complain about it on Blizzard's message boards.

It seems to me that some feel that Bethesda has some obligation to produce these mythical RPG masterpieces that only exist in their memories. The fact that they don't just enrages some people.

I just wonder what enjoyment you get out of constantly complaining about every single aspect of the game, the company, and dirt they walk on.

 

[Public]

Aim shots in previous Fallouts:

1.They cost a lot of AP (4-5 AP was a lot, not like in FO3 you have 100 AP where in FO1 & 2 having 8 AP was good).

2. Your enemies could "blow your arm off" too, but it depends on your enemy's stats, skills, what weapon he/she is carrying, and they aim too, but you just don't see it just like they don't see your actions (it's like playing cards/poker)

3. You And you enemies are in Turn-based combat.

4. Your chances to get a critical hit are very low (they get higher depending on some of your stats)

In FO3:

1. To aim, you pause the game and chose which part of the body you want to hit (except groins...), and you don't even care how many AP it will take, coz it doesn't matter- they will get back within a minute anyway.

2. Your enemies don't have that ability to pause the game and make their aim shots. They do everything in Real-time, when you have ability to figt in RT and pause the time. For example (like in the video HoKa posted), when the ghoul attacts you (or any other enemy) his arm is in the air in slo-mo and you already shot him 3-4 times. Now, try to shoot your enemy 3 times in the real time combat while his hand is in the air.

3. Everything what your enemies are doing, is in the Real-time combat, while you have RT and the pause mode to aim at them.

4. Your chances to get a critical hit are very high. Almost every aim shots ends on blowing up your enemies.

Pipboy in previous Fallouts:

1. you can open your pip boy and use stuff in it like Stimpacks, but opening it costs you 4 AP (you can get a perk that will change it to a 2 AP). But:

a) Stimpaks cannot heal your broken/cripled limbs, you need to use a Medkit or a Doc Kit, which you cannot use during the combat.

b) your enemies can do it too

c) you and your enemies, can do it only when it's your or their turn.

2. Reloading weapons costs AP

Pip Boy in FO3:

1. You can open your Pip Boy whenever you want, and you can use as many stimpaks as you have. Even if it costs something, hey! you've got around 100 AP!

a) stimpaks will heal your "cripled" limbs

b) I haven't noticed any enemies, suddenly be healed from 2% HP to 100% HP. Or maybe they don't have as many stimpaks as our player can have? Maybe...

c) you don't have turns in FO3.

2. I'm not sure if reloading costs something, also not sure if during the "aim shots" reloding takes AP or it is already added in as one, full aim shot or something.



No matter how this system is trying to be an imitation of TB combat, it is not and will never be. Why to change something [RTwP] to make it look like something else [TB combat]? If this [TB] was never broken and always worked fine to do what it was created for [TB combat]?

You will not change a cheesecake into an apple pie using some "similar" ingredients.

Damn, food comparision again...

 

[Rev. Layle]

I have nothing against Bethesda - I do think they make fun games. Morrowind is fun. Also, regardless on how silly the story/dialouge was, I thought Oblivion was fun to play.

and I found F3 is fun, also - but it certainly doesn;t hold a candle to, story-wise - to F1 (or F2). I have seen MUCH worse, but F1 and F2 has a better story telling presence than F3 can ever hope to have (keeping in mind, to me, F2 is a bit weak in comparison to F1)

However, anyone who thinks that main quest is worth a damn hasn't really experienced any decent non-linear story writing or even a plot that has a remotely logical ending (and I don;t mean "logic" in a Fallout sense, I mean just general "OK, why does it go down like this??" way. Unfortunately, not a lot of studios can do it very well these days, that seems to be a dying art (nope, Obsidian can't do it worth a damn either - regardless of their current pedigree)


So if you want to call that a "vendetta" - fine, it's a "vendetta" then. I apparently have a lot of "vendettas" all the time

 

[Public]

I have nothing against Bethesda - I do think they make fun games. Morrowind is fun. Also, regardless on how silly the story/dialouge was, I thought Oblivion was fun to play.

It's pretty hard to make games "not fun". Some people can get fun out of...taking a bath or taking a dump. For others, fun means- good dialogue, story, great characters and voice actors.

"Fun" can be differently taken by different people.

 

[Rev. Layle]

I have nothing against Bethesda - I do think they make fun games. Morrowind is fun. Also, regardless on how silly the story/dialouge was, I thought Oblivion was fun to play.

It's pretty hard to make games "not fun". Some people can get fun out of...taking a bath or taking a dump. For others, fun means- good dialogue, story, great characters and voice actors.

"Fun" can be differently taken by different people.

Couldn't agree more

Well, I could, but that would be just silly.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

In any case, VATS isn't a "combat system", it's a gimmick. Neither are aimed shots of FO1/2. Thus, while FO1/2 combat system was tactical turn-based (hexagonal), FO3's combat system is real-time shooter with bullet time (represented by VATS aka bullet time on steroids),

 

[Rev. Layle]

VATS is *certainly* an element of FO3's combat system however.

Gimmick or not... Action Points can be a gimmick (in any of the games) - accessing infinite inventory actions for 2-4 APs can be a gimmick. Hexagons can be a gimmick (OMG - Look, we use hexes instead of a grid or "the distance formula").

However, it is true, that VATS alone is not a combat system, but without it, FO3's combat system is not really the same anymore.