VATS is not RTwP

[Section8]

Never really thought about it before.. but I don't think I have ever played a "Bullet time" game where I could queue up actions.

That's pretty much because it's more fun to make those shots yourself. There's a certain charm to diving through a doorway in Max Payne and using bullet time to kill four guys before they can even get the drop on you. It's gratifying that your skill as a player is what gets you through.

What's the point of automating that with queued actions? It's not like there's any real tactical depth in picking which of four targets you're going to kill first. It sounds like KOTOR without force powers, when KOTOR was already bland enough with them.

I don't get queued actions in general. They're essential for games like RTSs where there's no possible way to control everything without some form of automation. But in a single player action RPG? What kind of lazy-arse gamer wants to let their Xbox play their games for them?

Really the more I think about the combat system, the more I am looking forward to it. I have said before I loved Fallout, but as a tactical TB game, it sucked donkey balls.

So what exactly gets you gooey in the nether regions when you think about this system? What makes you think it's going to be in any way superior to Fallout's donkey ball sucking combat?

As a guy who loves FPSs, TB Tactical games, RPGs, RTSs, and anything else under the sun, I just can't see why this horrible middleground sharing elements of each would be compelling at all.

 

[LionXavier]

VATS = bullet-time for dummies

I'll paste here what I posted in that thread at Beth's forums:

Well, if we are to be "literal", VATS is indeed Real-Time with Pause, since it is a real-time game that has a pause feature; but considering that the "RTwP" term is consensually used to name Infinity Engine's gameplay system, which FO3's has little to nothing to do with, I think that calling VATS RTwP is a mistake. The same if not bigger mistake is calling it something related to Turn-Based.

Having said that, I must note that VATS, as has been described, is nothing special at all (no pun intended... or maybe yes). It can't be called a novelty because it isn't. Actually, VATS corresponds with an element that is commonly implemented in many of today's 1st/3rd person shooters: the slow-mo super-move, a special feature that is intended to add both a punctual advantage to the player over his foes and a "cool" and appealing cinematic effect (games like Max Payne and FEAR don't need introduction). It can be named differently (bullet-time, adrenaline move, etc) and it can work slightly different (like the fast-revolver move in GUN) depending on the game, but all are different collars for the same dog, and they can be identified by three traits that are shared by every one of them:
1>It belongs to a 1st/3rd shooter gameplay.
2>It depends on a metter.
3>It involves slow-motion.
In the concrete case of FO3's super-move, VATS, the only difference with the classic bullet-time mode of others is that, instead of directly aiming in the slow-mo mode, you first aim while in pause and then let the shooting happen automatically in slow-mo, which makes it a sort of bullet-time for dummies.

 

[Forhekset]

they had a right do make something a little different

A little different?

I don't think anything bothers me more about this game than the combat system.

Never really thought about it before.. but I don't think I have ever played a "Bullet time" game where I could queue up actions.

Really the more I think about the combat system, the more I am looking forward to it. I have said before I loved Fallout, but as a tactical TB game, it sucked donkey balls.

RE: queued bullet time actions, I think Red Steel for the Wii had a feature exactly like this. I can't say if it was any fun or not as I never played the game.

Also, I always thought the combat was one of Fallout's strongest points. Was it perfect? No, but I can't imagine anyone who's a fan of turn-based games saying it sucked donkey balls.

 

[Per]

wasn't fallout essentially real time with turn based combat?

No, it was turn based all the time. On the world map you clicked to move a square, then all the random encounters moved a square. In towns, you had to move everywhere in bursts of running, then wait while the junkies and townspeople went about their business. And in dialogue, it's like, you talk, they talk, you talk... but now with improved technology and more RAM we're going to be able to queue up dialogue options.

 

[Brother None]

Re: VATS = bullet-time for dummies

Well, if we are to be "literal", VATS is indeed Real-Time with Pause, since it is a real-time game that has a pause feature; but considering that the "RTwP" term is consensually used to name Infinity Engine's gameplay system, which FO3's has little to nothing to do with, I think that calling VATS RTwP is a mistake. The same if not bigger mistake is calling it something related to Turn-Based.

This is incorrect.

The Infinity Engine games did indeed invent RTwP more or less, but that doesn't mean RTwP is constricted to only to games that use the same kind of turn-based underlying mechanic for RT gameplay that can be paused.

Why not? Because that's useless. A term is never constricted by the narrow constraints of its original form. The Model-T was black, does that mean cars from then on could only be black and else not be considered cars? Of course not.

"RTwP" - as a concept - is simply a way to deal with the non-character-based nature of RT combat. When you realise that this is what it's about, you realise that in its nature it only requires a few things: it needs to be a real-time combat system with pause, and whatever actions you take in paused mode need to be influenced by character skills - which makes it an RPG-exclusive system.

Otherwise, how would this system apply to Mass Effect? Are you saying Mass Effect isn't RTwP?

 

[Moving Target]

Re: VATS = bullet-time for dummies

bullet-time for dummies.

Hah!

 

[Stag]

The thread's title just reminded me of this (super kudos to whoever knows where this is from): "Ray Charles is heavy metal!"

 

[AssassinEdge187]

Annoyance

I think I would be annoyed if you point and an enemy and shot and it missed in First/3rd person view that's up close. Same kind of scenario with Morrowind. It worked so well in Fallout because you had a tactical view of the fight. Now that it's up close with your finger on the button, I can see it being an annoyance to more than just I. If they are going to mess with Fallout, at least do it justice. It sounds like they are doing an FPS with a cludy combat system.

 

[Xenophile]

queued bullet time actions, I think Red Steel for the Wii had a feature exactly like this. I can't say if it was any fun or not as I never played the game.

Also, I always thought the combat was one of Fallout's strongest points. Was it perfect? No, but I can't imagine anyone who's a fan of turn-based games saying it sucked donkey balls.

Combat in fallout was entertaining, but mostly for me it was the death affects, playing with inventory and the fun of the setting.. attacking the slave traders headquarters against crazy odds, etc. It really wasn't the combat system itself. Compared to other tactical turn-based systems, it was a poor implimentation. I understand WHY it was that way.. and the rules it was based on, but that doesn't change that it was a weak point of the game. Also because of the turn-based nature it did cause some annoyances.. even with the speed turned all the way up.. running away from a busy encounter took a while. I still love the game, but having pulled it up on a VM recently I really noticed that over the years some areas of the game did not age well, especially the combat system. Even when it came out I would only call it marginal.

On the new game, I can't comment on Red Steel having never seen it, but the queued bullet time is different than anything I have seen. I am pretty excited about a cinematic sequence when I have a critical hit. I do hope it's not just "gibblets", but a little more creative. It's what I always imagined when playing fallout. My imagination still works, but that doesn't mean I won't think a slowmo bullet flyby is cool.

I think the real difference between the slowmo in this game and that of others like Max Payne primarily is the cinematic quality. Like the difference between racing in Gran Turismo and the cinematic replay afterwards, two VERY different experiences. With this being an RPG (even if it is otherwise an actiony one), I think the cinematic, stat-driven approach is a very creative way to go. It's a great melding of several gameplay techniques. Will it be the best combat system ever? I doubt it.. but I am interested in it and I do think it will be fun.

 

[jfreund]

Beth has positioned themselves to, at best, make the game POS should have been. Again, if they labeled this a spinoff there would not be nearly as much ill will. Sure there would be bitching that they weren't making Fallout 3, but their aren't making a Fallout sequel anyway. Their insistence on naming it as one and telling us that it really is one is infuriating.

 

[cccino]

Re: Annoyance

I think I would be annoyed if you point and an enemy and shot and it missed in First/3rd person view that's up close. Same kind of scenario with Morrowind.

But it's more "immersive" that way

 

[iii]

Oh no!

He is using the Chewbacca Defense!

 

[Parannegha]

I do hope it's not just "gibblets", but a little more creative.

It is a little more creative. As could be seen from the OXM scan of the flinging mutant body with the exploding leg, you get the flying ragdoll thing from Oblivion plus gibblets.

I think the real difference between the slowmo in this game and that of others like Max Payne primarily is the cinematic quality.

No, the real difference is, Max Payne is a late 90's John Woo movie-inspired setting, in other words exactly where slowmo bullet flybys belong and not in the 50's retro-futuristic theme of Fallout, because all slowmo can do to it is cramp its style. But these days they put it in everything, from Prince of Persia to Need for Speed, just for the sake of pretending to invent something new, so who's gonna notice, right?

Besides, bullet-time is for first/third-person shooters, but that's where F3 is headed anyway.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I think the real difference between the slowmo in this game and that of others like Max Payne primarily is the cinematic quality.

No, the real difference is, Max Payne is a late 90's John Woo movie-inspired setting, in other words exactly where slowmo bullet flybys belong and not in the 50's retro-futuristic theme of Fallout, because all slowmo can do to it is cramp its style.

Speaking of John Woo and cinematic quality, other than the pausing, chance to hit notifiers and queued actions VATS sounds a lot like Stranglehold's precision aiming mode. Restricted to first person view, can aim at body parts, number of shots limited depending on how much tequila time you have remaining. But mostly once you've taken the shot you get to watch a slow mo cinematic view of your target being hit before the action starts again.

 

[Ravager69]

tequila time?

 

[Black]

I think the real difference between the slowmo in this game and that of others like Max Payne primarily is the cinematic quality.

No, the real difference is, Max Payne is a late 90's John Woo movie-inspired setting, in other words exactly where slowmo bullet flybys belong and not in the 50's retro-futuristic theme of Fallout, because all slowmo can do to it is cramp its style.

Speaking of John Woo and cinematic quality, other than the pausing, chance to hit notifiers and queued actions VATS sounds a lot like Stranglehold's precision aiming mode. Restricted to first person view, can aim at body parts, number of shots limited depending on how much tequila time you have remaining. But mostly once you've taken the shot you get to watch a slow mo cinematic view of your target being hit before the action starts again.

What, another FO3 combat system inspiration?
Let's see. Halo, Cod, Stranglehold...
Am I missing something?

 

[Section8]

I think the real difference between the slowmo in this game and that of others like Max Payne primarily is the cinematic quality. Like the difference between racing in Gran Turismo and the cinematic replay afterwards, two VERY different experiences. With this being an RPG (even if it is otherwise an actiony one), I think the cinematic, stat-driven approach is a very creative way to go. It's a great melding of several gameplay techniques.

I've always thought this is a great strength of turn and phase based systems (phase based particularly) - the fact that the execution of actions is compartmentalised away from actually interacting with the game. You can cut between cameras, apply post-process filters, play with rate of motion - whatever you like, and it doesn't fuck with the way the player interacts.

In a real-time game, any change from the standard camera and GUI generally requires the player to catch up, and settle back into their groove. The classic example is pausing a racing game mid-race, even for a second, and then having a brief but intense white-knuckle moment of wresting control over the car again.

I hope Bethesda have enough sense to accelerate time out of their post-VATS bullet time mode, instead of it just being a snap. Also:

blah blah blah immersion blah blah immersion blah blah blah blah immersion blah blah first person

How fucking immersive is it if time flow is regularly interrupted, and (as I understand it) there's a super slo-mo action camera shift everytime you get a critical? Why am I reminded of of the "It's got what plants crave!" scene from Idiocracy everytime I hear Bethesda talk "immersion"? There was a time when I thought they were just using the buzzword to sell their shit, but now I think it's actually become mantra that's actively preventing understanding of the true concept.

 

[Forhekset]

queued bullet time actions, I think Red Steel for the Wii had a feature exactly like this. I can't say if it was any fun or not as I never played the game.

Also, I always thought the combat was one of Fallout's strongest points. Was it perfect? No, but I can't imagine anyone who's a fan of turn-based games saying it sucked donkey balls.

Combat in fallout was entertaining, but mostly for me it was the death affects, playing with inventory and the fun of the setting.. attacking the slave traders headquarters against crazy odds, etc. It really wasn't the combat system itself. Compared to other tactical turn-based systems, it was a poor implimentation. I understand WHY it was that way.. and the rules it was based on, but that doesn't change that it was a weak point of the game. Also because of the turn-based nature it did cause some annoyances.. even with the speed turned all the way up.. running away from a busy encounter took a while. I still love the game, but having pulled it up on a VM recently I really noticed that over the years some areas of the game did not age well, especially the combat system. Even when it came out I would only call it marginal.

I dunno, I play a lot of other turn-based games so I can agree that Fallout's combat is clunky by comparison. But it's charming in its own special way (and fun as hell), and I find it easy to overlook its faults. As for the whole speed thing...you know you can hold down a key to make your party run, right? Just checking. It kinda sounds like you just want a button that you can press to instantly teleport you out of battle. I know those random battles get tiresome, though.

Slo-mo death scenes are yesterday's news (soooo NOT next-gen, Bethesda). I've seen 'em in so many games already that I doubt they'll phase me in Fallout 3.

Although maybe watching exploding, backflipping <S>Strogg</S> Supermutants in slow motion would be entertaining after all. I wonder if you'll be able to keep shooting at 'em while they're in the air and bust out some juggle combos or some other wacky shit that doesn't belong in a Fallout game.

 

[Silencer]

They should hire the guy who was making Ruination. Seriously

Oh well, let's see how this super-power will play...

EDIT:

results of your actions are purely statistics-driven

And Gun-Kata is here ! I'm torn whether to name my first F3 character Jon Preston as usual, or shall I go with Max Paihn instead

On a more serious and lighter note, it's good to hear that maybe their pinch of FPS isn't all that heavy. Maybe. /~~~~ Maaaaaybeeeee....

 

[junkevil]

But balancing the game well for RT and TB, that's the nearly impossible part. Would take a lot of programmers, basically.

heh, reminds me of arcanum, which was an excellent game but the combat was broken. magic users could use TB and own everything and gun users could use RT and own everything.

as much as i know i am about to get some kind of fruit thrown at me for saying it, but tactics i thought did a good job of merging the two for combat. real time still used AP, they just regenerated, and turn based still felt very much the same.

tequila time?

thats the proper term for bullet time. considering max payne ripped john woo off, i'd call it fair.