Vault people and items in the wasteland

You do have a point, Saint, it is rather stupid that California uses 10mm weapons while the rest of the country doesn't. Of course, it's rather stupid that California uses 10mm weapons at all. Taylor never had a good reason to choose those calibers, or to make desert eagles the second most common pistols in the wastes. Although Fallout's weapons in general were better than in FO2, they were still pretty poor choices in many ways.

I guess what comes down to is one flawed choice or another. Is consistancy on this one issue that important?
 
I think it's important. This stuff and this stuff are everywhere in Fallout 1 and 2. Where as this stuff and this stuff are so god-damned rare it's not funny.

You're asking why it shouldn't change. I'm asking why it should change. There's no need. It's a game. The two existing games have used the ammo they used. Why are we changing that, solely because JE felt like it, or does he have some actual valid reason other than "well uhhh... it's what we use in dah real world guys uhuh". I'm personally pretty sure that by 2075, most of the ammunition types and weapons we use today won't be in existence, but hey, that's just me.

If you're interested, here's the full list of Fallout 2 items.
 
DarkUnderlord said:
You're asking why it shouldn't change. I'm asking why it should change. There's no need. It's a game. The two existing games have used the ammo they used. Why are we changing that, solely because JE felt like it, or does he have some actual valid reason other than "well uhhh... it's what we use in dah real world guys uhuh".
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Maybe he feels that a (mostly failed) experimental cartridge like the 10mm and an extremely powerful .44 Magnum cartridge are illogical choices for being the two most common ammo types. Fallout had a flaw, and maybe he wants to fix it. If that is at the risk of being inconsistant, I say, so be it.

I'm personally pretty sure that by 2075, most of the ammunition types and weapons we use today won't be in existence, but hey, that's just me.
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Why's that? Our two most common ammo types, 9mm Luger and .45 ACP, have both lasted over a century as it is (1905 for .45, 1908 for 9mm). Why have they lasted so long? Because they can't be improved upon. Time doesn't make a cartrdige obsolete. Only improvements can. Fallout improved their weaponry with the invention of energy weapons. Any weapon that is not an energy weapon is probably still going to be your basic 9mm or .45.
 
Actually, I haven't asked why they shouldn't change. In fact, I think I fairly examined both sides of the issue in my post.

A piss poor choice to start with vs consistancy on a relatively unimportant issue.

Yeah, this does represent one more difference, and a change that doesn't need to be made. In that sense, it's somewhat representative of JE's apparent design strategy. He seems to be changing the game for the Hell of it. On the other hand, these round choices never made sense. They aren't super-duper futuristic cartidges, they're relatively unpopular modern-day cartridges. The 10mm didn't even exist until the 1980s. .45 however, was pretty popular in America in the 1950s. It has a solid reputation as a thoroughly American round, and it's developed almost a mystique.

Saint made the analogy of lightsabers and vibroblades, however I think the choice of 10mm could be likened to the use of nerf swords in the first case. In that case, switching to vibroblades from nerf swords might be a good idea, even if it makes no sense in the current setting.

I don't know. Is it that one detail such a defining factor of Fallout?
 
Aram said:
Maybe he feels that a (mostly failed) experimental cartridge like the 10mm and an extremely powerful .44 Magnum cartridge are illogical choices for being the two most common ammo types.
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Granted, perhaps the 10mm cartridge is a failed bullet in our world. Taking that into consideration, what's your thought on the T-51b Power Armour, given that existing combat suit systems being developed by the military are horribly flawed and ineffective on the battle-field?

Also, considering Fusion technology is currently non-existant in an ammo cartridge format, what are your thoughts on the Micro Fusion Cells and Small Energy Cells found within Fallout?

Further-more, given that advancements in genetic-engineering haven't yet reached the state that we are capable of creating a biological terror beast such as the Deathclaw in the real-world, what are you thoughts on them existing, and being so common, in Fallout?

My point is, 10mm ammo is EVERYWHERE in Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Weapons that USE 10mm and .44 ammo are EVERYWHERE in Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Honestly, I think they chose the ammo just to BE DIFFERENT from the real world. Just because a virus doesn't exist in the real-world that can turn a normal guy into a mutant hell bent on world domination and Unity, doesn't mean it can't exist in the game, or that it won't exist in our future.

Like-wise, just because the ammo in the game is modelled on real-world examples, doesn't mean it has to be the SAME as the real-world or WORK the same way as in the real-world.

Aram said:
Fallout had a flaw, and maybe he wants to fix it. If that is at the risk of being inconsistant, I say, so be it.
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Inconsistency or "What it's like in the REAL world", vs consistency or "What it's like in the FALLOUT world". I'd take Fallout any day. If we were making a new game from scratch, hey, use whatever ammo you like. Once again though, JE's making a sequel, NOT a new game. Consistency is paramount. Inconsistency is what brought FO:T down.

Aram said:
Our two most common ammo types, 9mm Luger and .45 ACP, have both lasted over a century as it is (1905 for .45, 1908 for 9mm). Why have they lasted so long? Because they can't be improved upon.
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... with today's technology. Notice how bullets changed from what they used to be back when they were first invented? They're not just little ball-bearings anymore. Incidentally, for how many centuries were they just little ball-bearings that were put down a barrel one-by-one after you'd poured the gunpowder in? That all changed when they developed a better delivery system. What's to say that won't happen in the next 75 years?

Aram said:
Fallout improved their weaponry with the invention of energy weapons. Any weapon that is not an energy weapon is probably still going to be your basic 9mm or .45.
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I think you mean 10mm or .44.

You're both basically arguing that because there are no Deathclaws around in our real-world, they should therefore be non-existant in Fallout 3, and we should have cloned sheep instead.

Doyle said:
Saint made the analogy of lightsabers and vibroblades, however I think the choice of 10mm could be likened to the use of nerf swords in the first case. In that case, switching to vibroblades from nerf swords might be a good idea, even if it makes no sense in the current setting.
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You're forgetting. They're not nerf swords. As in Fallout, the 10mm ammo and .44 are not crappy ammo. They're pretty god-damned good. In fact, they're standard. To change that just because "Oops, sorry, made a mistake first time around. It was actually a typo and all 10mm ammo is now 9mm ammo" doesn't make any sense. They've built the world along certain guide-lines, they should be held to.

Doyle said:
I don't know. Is it that one detail such a defining factor of Fallout?
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Again, consistency. As soon as you start throwing consistency out the window, you lose the point in having a setting or franchise at all.
 
DarkUnderlord said:
... with today's technology. Notice how bullets changed from what they used to be back when they were first invented? They're not just little ball-bearings anymore. Incidentally, for how many centuries were they just little ball-bearings that were put down a barrel one-by-one after you'd poured the gunpowder in? That all changed when they developed a better delivery system. What's to say that won't happen in the next 75 years?
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Well apparently it didn't. The two cartridges are 10mm and .44 Magnum. These aren't technologically different from the 9mm or .45. The 10mm was developed in 1983, and the .44 Magnum in 1956. They aren't technologically different. They're the same metallic cartridge, with smokeless powder and Boxer-type primers. There's no difference in technology. They simply chose two very illogical cartridges for the job.
 
DarkUnderlord said:
Again, consistency. As soon as you start throwing consistency out the window, you lose the point in having a setting or franchise at all.
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Well then, does this change matter compared to the other changes he's making? It's a minor thing. The cartridge choices never defined Fallout and were possibly even contrary to the atmosphere. I won't mourn the change at all, and I believe that when it comes down to it you won't either.
 
I'll be honest, it won't and if JE changed the name of the Plasma Rifle to "Advanced Particle Beam Transfusion Device" and renamed Deatchlaws to "Big Hairy Rabbits with Teeth" and renamed the ".223" cartridge to "OMFG AMMO!!1!" or even renamed the "Sniper Rifle" to "Colt Rangemaster Automatic with Scope Enhancement and Laser Sight" and then renamed 90% of everything else in Fallout to something that was more like what's in the real-world, I'd probably still play it and probably still enjoy it.

As you say, it's a minor thing, but it'd make no sense. Ultimately calling a 10mm round 9mm makes no difference if it causes the same amount of damage in game. Whether a Deathclaw is a Deathclaw or a "Mutated Lizard" makes no difference if I still shit myself when my level 9 guy encounters one. What matters more to me though, is that a certain level of consistency maintains itself throughout the Fallout franchise. Deathclaws were called Deathclaws in FO1 and FO2. Changing the name to "Lizard Beast" because in the real-world, the Deathclaw is more likely to be a mutated blue-tongued lizard and therefore we went for that in FO3 over the fantasy name which we've been using for the passed two games, isn't consistent.
 
Meh. It comes down to a fundamental difference of opinions: you think consistancy in this detail is important, and I don't think it is.
 
Can I ask why you feel that changing the name of the 10mm ammo and .44 cartridge to 9mm and .45 should be made? Why do you feel it's necessary for those two cartridges to be based on real-world ammunition types?
 
DarkUndies, have you read any of my posts? 10mm and .44 magnum are already real-word ammunition types, they just make less sense in the setting than .45 and 9mm.
 
Gwydion said:
DarkUndies, have you read any of my posts? 10mm and .44 magnum are already real-word ammunition types, they just make less sense in the setting than .45 and 9mm.
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Can you explain why, without resorting to "they are more common in the real world"?
 
That's the only reason he needs.

10mm and .44 magnum bullets are rediculous, in the Fallout world. How often do you hear anything about either of those guns, with the exception of Bruce Willis movies? Law officers, and the rest of the gun-toting world, for the most part, carry .45's and 9mm's, and so do the military. The amount of Desert Eagles you find in the game is both overwhelming and rediculous.

Of course, you have to realise, it's just a computer game, and it's also Fallout. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone wielding a laser minigun? Hell...when was the last time you saw someone wielding a minigun, period?

-Malk
 
I`m guessing the point here is there will be a geographical shift in Fallout3, to other areas, where this type of ammunition is more "in fashion", therefore it won`t appear as inconsistent as it looks.

I hope we can see a couple of areas from FO1, i`m a nostalgic chap...
 
Well, I'm wondering if it's going to be a new state entirely.

We all saw the Denver artwork.

-Malky
 
Azael, if you had bothered to really read my posts (There is a ton of that going on -- or rather not going on) you would realize that my argument has nothing to do with what is being used now, and everything to do with what is being used in 1950s America. Mmmmkay?
 
WHy do they make less sense in the setting? From what I've found, the 10mm ammo is a much more powerful round than the 9mm. As was mentioned, the FBI stopped using it because it was "too powerful for some of their smaller agents". What's to say people in Fallout don't like their bigger more powerful weapons that pack a big punch? Especially considering the size of the big guns, such as the Plasma Rifle and Minigun.

In my opinion, the decision was made in Fallout 1 (for whatever reason) to use 10mm ammunition and .44 calibre. There's no reason to change that because "the original decision was bad". Why was it bad? As you said yourself, it's a minor issue. World consistency is far more important fixing a seemingly unimportant 'error'.

I'll get back to this. I had more, but a fucking invalid_session error cropped up so I lost the whole lot.
 
10mm didn't even exist in the 50s. I've written that several times now. On top of that, .45 has a reputation as the quintessential American round.

Frankly, if it were up to me the two most common pistol rounds would be .38 and .45. These two rounds have been some of the most popular in the country, and were in common use during the 50s. Additionally, as OTB remarked at DAC, it is unlikely that any round with a metric designation would become popular in the US. The 60s never happened, and the paranoid, communist-fearing attitude never dissolved in the US. Why then would America turn to foreign designations?

Let me ask you this, why does 10mm make more sense in the setting? If your only argument is consistancy, then why are you even trying to argue that point?
 
10mm didn't even exist in the 50s.
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Not in our 50's. But Fallout isn't set in our world.

And, anyway, the great war was in 2077. It's just that the culture in 2077 in the Fallout world is similar to our 50's.

We didn't have plasma rifles in our 50's, but Fallout had them in 2077.
 
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