Vault people and items in the wasteland

[Briosafreak]

Judging by this threadl Sawyer is right on this:

Can "the fans" stop acting like they have a unified opinion on every aspect of game design? You don't. Really, you do not. Saint Proverbius, Mr Carrot, On the Bounce, Kreegle, Rosh, KillZig, Belenus, Briosafreak, Odin, Ausir, TriCritical, Spazmo, and the dozens of other guys on those sites don't agree on most things. Even on things for which there seems to be a consensus, there is almost always dissention. Unless the topic is something like "Is Fallout spelled with two 'l's or one?", it is highly, highly unlikely that there will be a unified opinion.

Again giving the geographical displacement on the next game it really isn`t a big deal the change in calibres. Although DU didn`t replied to everything Gwydion said on his first post, i agree with him and Dan on this subject, and i`m getting worried why Gwydion keeps picking on everyone that posts at DAC, i see a pattern...

What i wanted was generic gun names, with fictional companies brands, and i got it; also 50`s pulp fiction ray guns, and they will appear, so i`ve been told.

So i`m happy with it, this little details don`t matter to the general feeling and atmosphere of the final game, and that together with the story will be the most important things to make me pleased when i`ll first play Fallout3.

Not if it`s 10mm or 9mm calibres or 24cm penises...

 

[Azael]

The Desert Eagle was created in Israel, a country long known for creating bad-ass weapons (such as the Uzi). It has the same caliber as some of the most powerful sniper rifles (.50), and has a seven round clip. Unless you're fucking super strong, though, you need to connect with the first shot. I've fired one of these things and it kicks like a disgruntled horse.

Where did you find this DU? The guy's a "gun nut" and doesn't know the difference between .50 AE and .50 BMG?

 

[Gwydion]

How is this one-sided at all, Brio? How is this me picking on DU?

I noticed that, too, Azael. But I don't think it's all that important. None of that information that DU grabbed off the net has any real relevance to the discussion as far as I can tell.

 

[Briosafreak]

How is this one-sided at all, Brio? How is this me picking on DU?

You do tend to be all spiced up when talking to people that post in DAC, normally i like your sense of irony but with them you tend to go too heavy on the sarcasm .

 

[Gwydion]

Oh, I see what you mean, I kind of brushed Dan off too. Hmm... Well, by my count that's three in two discussions. I don't think that's picking on DACers, it's just a case of users from DAC being self-righteous and refused to admit they're wrong at all. On top of that, having to deal with straw man arguments is frustrating. As long as this discussion has been going on, it's hard for me to fathom why DU would say something like "Basically, your argument is that 9mm is a better round..." when that clearly isn't even close to my argument.

 

[The physopathic Polock]

How many times have we heard the "geographical differences" excuse, anyways? Plenty of times, when there were morons defending Tactics. "Duh duh duh, the Deathclaws in Chicago have hair because they are in Chicago!"

Gwydion's arguement was not that the 9mm was better, but that the 9mm was available in the 50's (German WW2 weapons, anybody?) along with .45 ammo; weras the .44 and the 10mm wasn't. So what? Fallout is only inspired by 50's pulp, not the 50's. Like DU was trying to say, just because it wasn't available in the 50's, dosen't mean it was barred to the future, even in an alternate timeline.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I don't think Gwydion is picking on DAC'ers. I just think he was warped views on what Fallout is and on what's actually occuring (and has occured) in the Fallout world.

Nerfed comment? What comment was that exactly?

This one, back on page 2:

Saint made the analogy of lightsabers and vibroblades, however I think the choice of 10mm could be likened to the use of nerf swords in the first case. In that case, switching to vibroblades from nerf swords might be a good idea, even if it makes no sense in the current setting.

You know Gwydion, if you can't remember what it is you've been saying, it might be time for you to stop complaining about people "not reading what you said".

In a world where the big and slow .45 was considered the ultimate combat handgun round, that vision does not include 10mm.

Granted, I'll give you that. I'm not going to check it but I seriously doubt people in the 50's specifically envisioned 10mm ammunition. The thing is, once again, Fallout is based on that 50's thinking. It's not a complete copy of what people thought or did in the 50's. Fallout also has plenty of modern science (FEV) and modern technology thrown into the mix as well. Hence some futuristic weapons have been included. Perhaps in a true 50's retro-future clone, those weapons wouldn't exist. However, as it stands today, those weapons were included in the original Fallout and thus helped set the scene. The way they were in the original Fallout was nice too, not an over-board inclusion of modern day weapons with real names, but just a few thrown into the mix, with some made up names to go along with them.

In fact you aren't arguing that these rounds are not present in the Fallout game-world, you're arguing that they weren't present in one of the time periods that Fallout was based upon. Fallout included certain weapons and ammunition, so to suddenly say "Oh shit, never supposed to have them, everything should be 9mm or .45 and we'll need to change all the item descriptions too and make people hate you for the ammunition you use" is a big change and GOES AGAINST the premise of the Fallout world as defined in the original Fallout.

... the change in question is about this round specifically, and these weapons don't make sense in the 1950's future. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time.

So what of the other rounds then? Have you checked them to make sure that all the other rounds present in Fallout are part of "50's future thinking?". Are 14mm, .223 FMJ, 5mm, 7.62mm, 9mm ball and ALL the others present in Fallout not only IN the 50's but in 50's future-thinking as well? What about all the weapons and all the other ideas present? Have you checked it all?

As for why these rounds are in the game, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I'M TELLING YOU THAT CHRIS TAYLOR JUST MADE A BAD CHOICE ABOUT THE GUNS IN THE GAME, OR HAVE YOU NOT PICKED UP ON THAT?

It's your opinion that he made a bad choice. To me, the choice doesn't matter, what matters is that the choice has been made. Chris Taylor, for whatever reason, chose 10mm ammunition to be a common round. It now is, thanks to its abundance in the original Fallout. Like-wise with the other weapons and ammunition present in the original Fallout game. To "fix" this invalidates what is in the original Fallout.

Now then, what happens if they make a bad choice of weapon or ammunition in Fallout 3? Should that be "fixed" in Fallout 4? I can see a never ending circle of "fixing things". Things that weren't even broken in the first place.

The FO universe is all about the commie-huntin', paranoid, US of A, except that this time the '60s never came and all of those attitudes hung around. Hence I'd say that pretty much any cartridge with a metric designation would be taboo. Why? Because we all know that the metric system is part of a communist plot to befuddle American school children, leaving their weakened minds more succeptible to indoctrination by infiltrators in the educational system who are also busy getting them to drink flouridated water. That's why!

Ever notice how Fallout is about a Great War with China, not Russia? In fact, there isn't much mention of Russia in Fallout at all. Again, another indication that Fallout is a mix of 50's attitudes with modern day adjustments. Yet most of the doctrine floating about in the 50's was against the USSR. Should this be 'fixed' too?

According to who? You? Presuming that's the case, can you please explain metric ammunitions presence in both Fallout and Fallout 2?

Uh... According to the attitude in fifties America.

What, like those attitudes against Russia in fifties America? So there were absolutely no metric rounds floating about America in the 50's? Again, Fallout is based on the 50's, it is not an exact clone. Weapons like the Minigun use 5mm ammo in Fallout. Should this be changed to a different non-metric round, just to fit ONE of the time periods which Fallout is based upon, and then going beyond that and including a concept that DOESN'T EVEN EXIST in ANY of the existing Fallout games?

This is something that definitely would not change.

Again, according to who? You?

No, according to the premise of the Fallout world. The game world consists of 1950s attitudes and ideas of future technology. If you start claiming that all that changes, why bother pretending Fallout is retrotech at all?

The best premise of the Fallout world would have to be Fallout 1, wouldn't it? You're the one saying things should change from the original Fallout. If the game world consisted of these attitudes, how come they weren't apparent in Fallout 1, or even Fallout 2 for that matter? How come I wasn't attacked for using 10mm in Fallout 1? Why weren't mentions made of the conflicting ammunitions and people's views on them then?

See how your simple little change influences a little more than just the name of a piece of ammunition?

I did acknowledge that 9mm is not a good choice. In fact, I suggested that .38 would be a much better choice. Until 9mm became popular, .38 was the most popular round in America, and it saw widespread use by police and even some elements of the military.

... in 1950's America. 1950's America does not completely equate to what is in Fallout. But again, why aren't you telling JE this? You seem adamant that EVERYTHING SHOULD BE LIKE THE FIFTIES OMFG LOL!!1! and yet you seem quite capable of ignoring this and accepting 9mm.

Remember what you said?

DarkUndies, have you read any of my posts? 10mm and .44 magnum are already real-word ammunition types, they just make less sense in the setting than .45 and 9mm.

The current ammunition types make less sense in the setting than .45 and 9mm. So apparently, in YOUR Fallout world, where people are going to attack you for using metric ammunition ("Hey, before I kill you, can I check your ammo type please?"), it makes more sense, even though you've also said that 9mm wouldn't make much sense. So which is it Gwydion? Do we have 9mm ammo or not? Then if we HAVE 9mm ammo everywhere in Fallout 3, is that something you'll want 'fixed' in Fallout 4?

See what problems being inconsistent can cause?

In this post alone you've displayed almost a totaly ignorance not only for the Fallout setting in general...

Says the man who wants to:

• Remove 10mm and have 9mm ammunition or .38 ammunition which wasn't in the original Fallout.
• Add in attitudes against the ammunition used by the PC which wasn't in the original Fallout.

... and to include both even if it makes no sense in the current setting! Way to go Gwydion. Is there anything else in the Fallout world you'd like to change while you're at it, just to make it fit more into 50's America?

However, since Chris Taylor clearly put very little thought into all of his other weapon and caliber choices -- did you notice for example that the art for the 10mm semi-auto was a revolver -- that this was a reference to the extremely common appearance of the gun in our own modern movies.

Regardless of WHY the decision was made, my point is that the decision HAS been made. Once again, as you've indicated yourself, changing the ammunition types makes no sense in the current setting. Why change that now?

Seems Fallout says otherwise to what YOU think.

Only when you don't think about any of it, Chuckles.

No, only when you want changes even if it makes no sense in the current setting!

Again, Fallout 1 set the scene and created the setting for the Fallout world. Nothing else. JE wants a game more like Fallout 1. Here's his chance to stick to that statement.

 

[Gwydion]

Ok, there's some important piece of logic here that you just aren't getting, Darky. Frankly we can play tit for tat for weeks, but that's an endless cycle of convoluted arguments and contextual nightmares. Here's what it boils down to:

A) Fallout is based on 1950s America. Yes, it 50s future, but it still ultimately comes from the 50s.

B) This is central to the game setting; this is what makes Fallout Fallout and not just another post-apocalyptic game.

C) Chris Taylor chose real, modern-day ammo in Fallout.

D) Finally, since Fallout includes modern cartridges, those cartridges should be what would be common in 50s America in keeping with points A & B. If the ammo was not commonly found in America, it is not in keeping with point A, which according to point B is separates Fallout from the crowd.

I think even you agree with points A through C, but why then don't you agree with point D? I'm not saying that this explains away the change, I noted in my very first reply to Saint that the change was stupid. I'm making the point that the decision was a bad one from the start.

 

[OnTheBounce]

First off, let me qualify my argument so I don't get lynched here. (Besides, DU would rather lynch me for the number of buttons on my mouse anyway... )

I've had some things to say in the argument about what ammo types but I have to qualify my argument with "if we are going to see them changed then we ought to..." I agree w/DU that FO established the cannon and there is nothing to wrong w/maintaining continuity in the setting. Basically, the argument of replacing the existing ammo types would be under the assumption that JES is going to go ahead w/it.

Yes, you're right that the FO-verse isn't about the 1950s US of A, but rather a possible future as seen through the eyes of pulp sci-fi writers. Yes, it is dangerous to start tinkering w/the setting w/disregard to established canon since it's a slippery slope. However, if JES is going to tinker, there are some directions I'd like to steer him in, if possible.

Ever notice how Fallout is about a Great War with China, not Russia? In fact, there isn't much mention of Russia in Fallout at all. Again, another indication that Fallout is a mix of 50's attitudes with modern day adjustments. Yet most of the doctrine floating about in the 50's was against the USSR. Should this be 'fixed' too?

Actually DU, there were a lot of forward-thinking people in the '50s that were already looking at conflict w/China since they didn't have any faith in the USSR being able to manage its economy and hence it would fall apart and end up aligning w/the West. For instance, in Starship Troopers Heinlein has the USSR aligning w/the West after collapsing economically and the "big 'un" has the West squaring off against China. Note that this book was published in '59. Heinlein was by no means alone in this, but he's the most accesible figure I can think of.

A lot of the Cold War mentality didn't actually revolve around hatred directed at the Soviet Union, but rather against International Communism.

Cheers,

OTB

 

[The physopathic Polock]

Ok, there's some important piece of logic here that you just aren't getting, Darky. Frankly we can play tit for tat for weeks, but that's an endless cycle of convoluted arguments and contextual nightmares. Here's what it boils down to:

Alright, let's hear it:

A) Fallout is based on 1950s America. Yes, it 50s future, but it still ultimately comes from the 50s.

True, but not even western science was blinded totaly by hate of Communism enough to reject the metric system.

B) This is central to the game setting; this is what makes Fallout Fallout and not just another post-apocalyptic game.

Perhaps, but what Sawyer is doing may add up with other fuck-up's to ruin the atmosphere. Ain't that that DU was saying?

It is a minor, unimportant detail. And yet, it could be part of a larger problem of "tweaking the setting" to incoherency...

C) Chris Taylor chose real, modern-day ammo in Fallout.

Yes he did. And please note that this was the choice made for the cannon. Deveating from the cannon is often a bad idea. This is exactaly what DU meant.

D) Finally, since Fallout includes modern cartridges, those cartridges should be what would be common in 50s America in keeping with points A & B. If the ammo was not commonly found in America, it is not in keeping with point A, which according to point B is separates Fallout from the crowd.

Um, right. Ok, sure! Lets use "50's" ammo to "save" the setting, even though it's obvious that 10mm and .44 rounds were chosen for Fallout, a 50's pulp Sci-Fi Post-Apoc story that uses only culturial influence from the 50's mixed with modern and fututr tech with bits of thr Road Warrior mixxed in!

Let us also ignore the fact that that this occours in the future, where the 10mm round was probably improved opon to lessen the recoil so that it was an effictive ammunition type!

I think even you agree with points A through C, but why then don't you agree with point D? I'm not saying that this explains away the change, I noted in my very first reply to Saint that the change was stupid. I'm making the point that the decision was a bad one from the start.

Mabye, mabye not. DU's point was this: That was the choice that was made, thus there is a problem when you want to change it.

I think even you agree with points A through C, but why then don't you agree with point D? I'm not saying that this explains away the change, I noted in my very first reply to Saint that the change was stupid. I'm making the point that the decision was a bad one from the start.

That's quite subjective. Sure, you agree on some things, but DU's point was that the change is bad because it buzzes past the face of what is established.

 

[Gwydion]

What are you arguing against, Polock? I said the change is dumb, so did you. You never made the argument that the initial choice was a good one, so I don't see any conflict here.

 

[Gwydion]

I'd like to emphasize this again, because I just have this sinking feeling that DU, Dan, Polock or someone is going to reply and ignore this one more time, but I am not arguing that the change should be made. I am making the argument that Taylor's round choices were flawed from the beginning and that out of JE's changes he does have a bit of a point with this one. You are 100% correct that Fallout cannon includes 10mm and .44, but, like OTB, it's matter of the change occuring and accepting that. This point does not interfere with my argument that the rounds were a bad choice from the beginning. These are not mutually exclusive positions to hold.

 

[The physopathic Polock]

What are you arguing against, Polock? I said the change is dumb, so did you. You never made the argument that the initial choice was a good one, so I don't see any conflict here.

Funny, because the point is that the choice wasn't bad nor good. Thus it dosen't mater how "accurate" or "good" the choice is, but that said choice was made.

I'd like to emphasize this again, because I just have this sinking feeling that DU, Dan, Polock or someone is going to reply and ignore this one more time, but I am not arguing that the change should be made.

But you are trying to justify it in the cannon, which I agree could be misinterpteted as saying it should be made. But then again, mabye you are arguing that "This change is critical to the cannon because it's 50's!". Please...

I am making the argument that Taylor's round choices were flawed from the beginning and that out of JE's changes he does have a bit of a point with this one.

They wern't flawed because Fallout is based on 50 pulp, not the 50's writ large. That means that there are only moderate influences from the 50's era. DU was trying to tell you that light curturial influences do not always get in the way of science, and that the 10mm could have been tweaked to effectiveness.

You are 100% correct that Fallout cannon includes 10mm and .44, but, like OTB, it's matter of the change occuring and accepting that.

Perhaps we could accept the change if the base cannon is preserved in the game; but if we let J.E.S. alter too much, he could get carried away. This is exactaly what DU was implying.

This point does not interfere with my argument that the rounds were a bad choice from the beginning. These are not mutually exclusive positions to hold.

Then your arguement might fail if you consider the fact that the chioce was neither bad nor good, but was the choice that was made. Also, the fact is that it is set in the future (50's pulp based, true, but the future nonetheless...)

Still, it is not the just ammo that counts. The weaponary would be a bit more important to the setting then the ammo, wouldn't it? Having the 10mm guns have a neo-50's look and feel makes more semse then having 50's ammo.

I happen to belong to a Fallout messageboard RPG (no, this is not an ad, just part of my example) that is trying to follow a Fallouty feel when it comes to weapons (actauly, things on general, but for this puropse, lets focus on the weapons). Nowhere is it said that "A strict adherence to Fallout" or "A strict adherence to the 50's" is needed. 10mm dosen't go out of context with being "Fallouty", does it? No, of course not.

EDIT:

Azael, if you had bothered to really read my posts (There is a ton of that going on -- or rather not going on) you would realize that my argument has nothing to do with what is being used now, and everything to do with what is being used in 1950s America. Mmmmkay?

Now that was what DU was talking about. You wanted to use 50's weapons in a sequl to a game based in the future, where the technologies have advanced beyond the current tech, often to the point of improved performance, and perhaps maybe field effectiveness in the form of a 10mm pistol that does't knock a petite person down from the reciol (Or is less likely to do so. ther were over 74 years between today and the Big One in 2077 where improvements could be made. 74 years is enough time to make a feild-effective 10mm pistol, so no dice.).

Usilg old weapons might be junk-techy and even slightly Fallouty, but why not have the newer stuff (as was the Colt auto-loading 10mm pistol and H&K MP 10mm SMG) alongside it? Why add 50's weapons if it is the future, where old things become obsolete unless properly refined? The 10mm might have outstripped the 9mm (obviously) and the .45 in combat effectiveness anyways, so why stick with outdated stuff unless that is the only stuff you had?

 

[Gwydion]

You just aren't listening are you?

 

[The physopathic Polock]

Even if there were new & improved weapons using 9mm and .45, not even a storyline explination might be able to excuse their sudden apperance and the sudden diapperance 10mm and .44.

Although it might work, it still is problematic to ditch the 10mm and .44 just because you also have 9mm and .45 more true to the era, not adaptibe to the emotion that is inspired by the era. And a geographical difference is a half-assed explination at best.

And if the 10mm guns stay Fallouty enough (like the did in the origional game) why also use an inferiror* round like the 9mm?

And it still flies in the face of the cannon if you simply ditch the 10mm and .44 for the 9mm and .45. I can accept it a bit more if used in conjunction with the 10mm and .44, but the heart of the arguement is "Why alter the cannon when there was nothing wrong with the old stuff?". Why not just use old and new in conjunction, instead of tossing the old?

*I'm no gun expert, but wouldn't the bigger round go deeper into you opponent's skull then the smaller one?

EDIT:
Almost confused myself there. I meant that the "future" arguement didn't dismiss 9mm and .45 ammo for being "left behind" with the refinement of the 10mm. They might have been left behind, but possable refinement might have happened.

Still, see above for the refined explination...

 

[Gwydion]

No, that's still not what I'm saying at all.

Ok, let's go back in time a few years:

Fallout is early in development and Chris Taylor is going to make the decision on what weapons to use in the game. He's narrowed the basic cartridge down to two choices: 10mm and 45 ACP. One of these will become the most common cartridge you will see in the wastes, the other probably won't even be included in the game.

On the side of the 10mm, it has a certain appeal as a rare, relatively unknown round. Back in the 1980's everyone thought it was going to be the future of law enforcement; it delivers magnum-level performance in a medium-sized auto pistol. It ultimately fizzled out and today not many people know much about it. C. Taylor, being a gun nut, is understandably in love with the round.

On the side of the .45, this is the American round. Developed prior to WWI for the US Army by John Browning, the most prolific American arms designer of the time, it served as the standard caliber for American military sidearms and submachineguns over 70 years, right up until the Congressional pistol trials of the 1980s. Although it was replaced by 9mm, the round still proves its usefulness in the hands of special forces to this very day. Throughout it's long history, the round developed a mystique; large and powerful, it was the perfect match for the American patriotic spirit. It's carried this reputation during the 50s, and it carries this reputation today.

Now, Chris Taylor considers these two rounds. There is no cannon yet, whatever he chooses now is the cannon. What's the better choice?

That's my point.

 

[The physopathic Polock]

No, that's still not what I'm saying at all.

You are trying to justfy a change in cannon by saying how "bad" the origional choice was. if it is the standard, and if it fits in a game not based purely on the 50's, but on 50's pulp, then ther is nothing wrong with it.

Ok, let's go back in time a few years:

Oohhh! A flashback! I just loovvvve flashbacks!

Fallout is early in development and Chris Taylor is going to make the decision on what weapons to use in the game. He's narrowed the basic cartridge down to two choices: 10mm and 45 ACP. One of these will become the most common cartridge you will see in the wastes, the other probably won't even be included in the game.

Ok, I can imagine some sillouette hovering over a desk with documants contaning specs on two seperate bullet types. Good so far...

On the side of the 10mm, it has a certain appeal as a rare, relatively unknown round. Back in the 1980's everyone thought it was going to be the future of law enforcement; it delivers magnum-level performance in a medium-sized auto pistol. It ultimately fizzled out and today not many people know much about it. C. Taylor, being a gun nut, is understandably in love with the round.

Ah yes, and just because it's flawed now dosen't mean it won't be improved in the future, now will it? 10mm ammo dosen't vioate 50's sci-fi pulp, now does it? And if the gun can fit the setting, then there is little wrong with the ammo but implementation in the game itself.

On the side of the .45, this is the American round. Developed prior to WWI for the US Army by John Browning, the most prolific American arms designer of the time, it served as the standard caliber for American military sidearms and submachineguns over 70 years, right up until the Congressional pistol trials of the 1980s. Although it was replaced by 9mm, the round still proves its usefulness in the hands of special forces to this very day. Throughout it's long history, the round developed a mystique; large and powerful, it was the perfect match for the American patriotic spirit. It's carried this reputation during the 50s, and it carries this reputation today.

Good rep has nothing to do with it, although it might have attached a pinch more notariety. It dosen't matter what you use, as long as it can fit in the setting.

Besides, Fallout is set in a 50's pulp post-apoc sci-fi style game with hints of Road Warrior and Mad Max, not the 50's itself. Does everything have to be pure 40s-50's era weaponary?

Tactics did that wrong, and look how that turned our (However, that minor detail was only resultant of and cumulitave with the other flaws in the game, like HamsterCaws and Gas-powered cars in a World virtualy exausted of oil)

The point is that you shouldn't change something when it doesn't matter if you change it or not. It may be a minor detail, but why change it? You have no reason to, the old choice worked just fine and it is already established cannon.

Now, Chris Taylor considers these two rounds. There is no cannon yet, whatever he chooses now is the cannon. What's the better choice?

Whats done is done, and it is impossible* to alter the past. And besides, why would I change the ammo in a game, when there are much more fun things to do as a visitor from the future bent of changing history?

That's my point.

Sure it is. And mine is this: That ther is no point in altering cannon just because the old choice for ammo was a "mistake".**

*(as far as modern science knows, however)
**When in fact that is a moot point altogether!

 

[Gwydion]

You're still ignoring my point. I cannot believe this garbage. How many times do I have to spell this out? How many times do I have to put it in black and white. Maybe all those Polish jokes are on the mark!

My point isn't that any of this justifies altering the cannon, my point isn't that the 10mm as a round is too flawed to be commonly used. I'm saying that Taylor made a poor choice. You haven't even touched that issue. You're just a broken record saying, "That's no reason to change" over and over.

 

[The physopathic Polock]

You're still ignoring my point. I cannot believe this garbage. How many times do I have to spell this out? How many times do I have to put it in black and white. Maybe all those Polish jokes are on the mark!

Sure they are. I have a sense of humor, don't I?

My point isn't that any of this justifies altering the cannon, my point isn't that the 10mm as a round is too flawed to be commonly used. I'm saying that Taylor made a poor choice. You haven't even touched that issue. You're just a broken record saying, "That's no reason to change" over and over.

That was only half my point. You must have skipped the part where I said:

Ah yes, and just because it's flawed now dosen't mean it won't be improved in the future...

Because the 10mm has presumably been improved over time;

You're just a broken record saying, "That's no reason to change" over and over.

...is a moot point, just like when you said:

I'm saying that Taylor made a poor choice.

That is a moot point when there was enough time to improve the 10mm so that it would be a logical equivalent (or even sucessor) to the .45 style round. Thus it is not a poor choice when it dosen't matter.

So there is no point to violate preset cannon by replacing 10mm ammo with .45 ammo, even though it is entirely possable to refine the round to be field effective by the 2070's. By then it could have been capable of outperforming the .45, making the .45 virtually obsolete even before the 2070's.

So why change it if it dosen't need to be changed when it is a moot point to change it?

 

[Dan]

Gwydion, I never said you wanted to change it. I understand your argument is about Chris Taylor making a bad choice. I just don't agree with you, I don't think he made a bad choice.

I, of course, agree about Fallout's 50 setting. Fallout took a lot from the 50's culture and sci fi comics.
I just don't agree with you on that that all technology should be 50's based.

Yes, Fallout is retro-futaristic. But you can't just make every decision using the retro portion, the futaristic one playes a role as well. You can see the 50's in Fallout in many places, from the way the world looks to the very plot of the first game, but bullets are not one of the things that help the setting.

Fallout's technology is not like our 50's technology, it is far more advanced, therfor ammunition that wasn't used in the 50's can be used in Fallout. You can say it does not keep with the setting, but do you honestly think that the choice of the 10mm ammo substracts from the setting?
Myself, I have no idea about bullets and amuniation, all the stuff you said about it being more american is new to me, and I think a lot of other people can say that too.

10mm doesn't keep with a 50's attiude, but not everything in the game must do it.
10mm does acheive another goal though, it helps seperate the Fallout universe with our universe.