Vault people and items in the wasteland

[Gwydion]

Not in our 50's. But Fallout isn't set in our world.

And, anyway, the great war was in 2077. It's just that the culture in 2077 in the Fallout world is similar to our 50's.

We didn't have plasma rifles in our 50's, but Fallout had them in 2077.

Thank you, Dan, your contribution was invaluable.

 

[Methidox]

yea it was valuable, to bad your a fucking idiot

"fallout wasnt set in our world"

becuase it was the same as the 50s but with plasma guns

"the fallout world is similiar to our 50's"

Hey you fucking moron, read the entire sentence, he was talking about culture, which i think is a great aspect of the fallout game, the formallity of life in the 50s. fallout isnt in our world becuase in 2077 fallout culture was like it was in the 1950s, but it still had the technology that would be futuristic of the 1950s, therefor its not in our world.

gg noob

 

[Gwydion]

kthxby

 

[Dan]

I think you missed my point.

What I was trying to say was, that even that Fallout is clearly rooted in a 50's enviroment, it doesn't mean it is exactly like OUR 50's.

Yes, Fallout's setting takes a lot from 50's sci fi comics, but that doesn't mean that if something wasn't used in our 50's it shouldn't be used in Fallout.

You said 10mm wasn't invented in the 50's. But, like I said, it doesn't matter as the game takes place hundreds of years after this.

Now, I'm sure you can find a more suitable reply then: "kthxby".

 

[Odin]

Methidox: lighten up on the language, no need to start calling people idiots!

 

[Gwydion]

No, Dan, you missed my point. On several occasions now. Your whole argument is speculation and "what if," while I'm telling you why not. Frankly, I'm getting sick of repeating myself. DarkUnderlord at least had a point with his consistancy argument, but you don't have any solid points at all here.

As for the "kthxby" post, it's pretty obvious that I wasn't going to deal with that newbie's belligerent attitude, so I simply ignored him.

 

[Malky]

Milkybar?...

*sigh*

Talk to Kharn about that one...

-Malk

 

[SimpleMinded]

wow, I guess Methidox just showed me why "Fallout Fanboys" always get the bad rap. And I don't see why you guys buggered out on Dan, I think he was entirely correct.

In all, there is no reason we should worry about what is accurate in the "Real World" when debating about what will be present in Fallout 3. As this is the third in the series, we should no longer look at what makes sense in our world, but instead, what makes sense in the world of Fallout. In the first two games, 10mm was there because maybe that was used throughout the Fallout world. And now, if that is switched to 9mm, it changes that depiction in the world. I think this was Dan's key point... why are we arguing about 50's ideas when we are not focusing on our world?

Heh, I think that was said before here but hey! I just wanted to make a reason for my post besides slapping Methidox on the wrist .

 

[Odin]

Actually I don't see why many of you get a fit when you hear that JE is going to use 9mm instead of 10mm, I mean who cares.. The Fallout world shouldn't make all that sense. Ie it shouldn't stay that true to the world in the 50ies since its only based on it.
I mean, come on it's a fucking bullet not a drastic change in setting or story..

And also that fanboy rap is a stereotype, you should see alot of the other fanbases around the gaming world..man.... some of them are vicious..

 

[Gwydion]

Actually, lil, I'm arguing why the cartridge decision never made sense in the first place, not why it makes sense to change. It doesn't make any sense to change in the middle of the series, and I noted as much in my posts. However, JEs reasoning is better than C. Taylor's, if you take JE's out of the context of changin what's in the game.

 

[SimpleMinded]

lol I hear ya Odin . In truth, I could care less about the ammo (as I stated at the beginning of the thread). I just wanted to back Dan up.

And Gwydion, sorry if I took what you said the wrong way, I left this topic after everybody got really deep into gun knowledge and came back, skipping the second page entirely :-\.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Let me ask you this, why does 10mm make more sense in the setting? If your only argument is consistancy, then why are you even trying to argue that point?

Because of what it means beyond just that simple change. The argument you're proposing is essentially that 9mm is a better ammunition. Correct? It makes more sense in the real world to use that ammunition. This extends BEYOND just the 9mm and .45 calibre ammunition. It extends to ALL ammunition and ALL weapon types.

Additionally, as OTB remarked at DAC, it is unlikely that any round with a metric designation would become popular in the US. The 60s never happened, and the paranoid, communist-fearing attitude never dissolved in the US. Why then would America turn to foreign designations?

If that's the case, why is 10mm ammo there at all? What about the 5mm ammo or the 7.62mm? Where did that all come from? Oh well, better ditch it all hey?

Over the passed several years there have been a lot of debates on the Fallout sites about OMFG reelistik ammo!!1!. From memory, even .223 ammo was complained about. Any hard-core gun enthusiast who knows his weapons is going to complain REGARDLESS of the decisions made. Why? Because I doubt JE is going to consult a real-life gun enthusiast about what guns should do what and what ammo should be better than what. Even if he does though, as I'm discovering, a lot of opinions are wildly different. Meaning whatever he chooses is going to get bitched about. At the end of the day, the complaint boils down to (example only) "Why is 5mm still in the game when a report released 3 years ago clearly shows that 7.62mm is superior..." and so on.

Take this for example:
10mm Pistol: A Colt 6520 10mm autoloading pistol. Each pull of the trigger will automatically reload the firearm until the magazine is empty. Single shot only, using the powerful 10mm round. Min ST: 3.

A google search for a "Colt 6520" brought up these:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976351140.htm
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0000/14.htm

Now unless Colt are in the habit of making a pistol version for their assault rifles... (They may well be, does anyone know?). Not quite the same gun is it? Now, because the Colt 6520 in the real-world isn't a 10mm pistol, that'll have to be changed too.

Desert Eagle .44: An ancient Desert Eagle pistol, in .44 magnum. Interest in late 20th century films made this one of the most popular handguns of all times.

Remember your comment about why the Desert Eagle was around so much? There's your answer right there. That is also a real weapon.

.44 Magnum
This masterful pistol is excellent for hunting deer and other large game. Scoped, it is accurate to 100 yards and beyond. Parts, accessories and technical support are available and will continue to be available for all the Mark VII pistols. (* NO LONGER MANUFACTURED in Mark VII model)

I also found this:

The Desert Eagle was created in Israel, a country long known for creating bad-ass weapons (such as the Uzi). It has the same caliber as some of the most powerful sniper rifles (.50), and has a seven round clip. Unless you're fucking super strong, though, you need to connect with the first shot. I've fired one of these things and it kicks like a disgruntled horse.

Now the Desert Eagle in Fallout had an 8 round clip... True, it wasn't a 50 calibre, but I doubt most of the weapons in Fallout have 'accurate' clip sizes. So do thay all have to be made more accurate too, just because they don't mirror what's occuring in the real-world?

Now why is that gun so wrong in Fallout? If everyone in Fallout uses .44 Desert Eagles, ipso facto, the ammo for them is going to be pretty common, isn't it? I'd think that in a world of giant radioactive scorpions, Super Mutants and Deathclaws, stopping power would be pretty darned important.


Now on the debate between 9mm and 10mm:

http://www.clede.com/Articles/Police/poop10.htm
Like everyone else, I'd heard rumblings of dissatisfaction with the ubiquitous 9mm. A Massachusetts State Trooper tangled with a 450-pound aggressor on an Interstate and placed 14 shots in the K5 without stopping the threat. While the added magazine capacity of the 9mm pistols seemed a small sacrifice from the power of the 357 Magnum, it soon became apparent that it wasn't.

However, that goes on to say that the 10mm didn't prove any more effective. With several instances of officers firing and targets not falling down.

http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/10/20/
I'm not sure how accurate that site is, but it mentions a reasonably decent 10mm pistol.

Typical full-sized centerfire automatic pistols weigh from 34 to 40 ounces. If they get much heavier than this, they cease to be truly carryable service-type handguns. The Glock 20 weighs 30 1/2 ounces with an empty magazine in place; that's a minimal burden for the on-the-job police officer. With most of the weight in the slide, the pistol is quite comfortable to shoot. I was downright surprised to find that the Glock 20 is easy to fire in fast exercises. I am no speed shooter, but I was able to take down six consecutive steel plates at 15 yards with no conscious effort going into pulling the pistol down from recoil. Bob Gates, who has wrists like most people's biceps, was shooting the piece at a very rapid rate. Everyone who fired the pistol felt that the bugaboo of nearly every other service 10mm, hard-to-manage recoil, was not a factor in shooting the Glock 20. I think the pistol is best described as recoiling about like an M1911 with a good service load.

Now for the FBI:

Although penetration and wound size govern handgun wounding
effectiveness, penetration is the more critical element.
Therefore, a minimum standard of 12" of penetration in the
gelatin was established. The following penetration results
indicate the number and percentage of rounds in each caliber that
met or exceeded the 12" minimum:

10mm - 39 shots out of 40 (97.5%)
.45 - 37 shots out of 40 (92.5%)
9mm - 27 shots out of 40 (67.5%)

CONCLUSION

The conclusion was obvious. The best performing round within the
parameters of the FBI's test protocol was the 10mm.
Accordingly, the Director of the FBI approved the recommendation
that the new 10mm cartridge be adopted as the standard caliber
for a new FBI pistol, and that the new pistol be procured in
sufficient quantities to replace existing revolvers.

The reason the FBI tried using 10mm ammo was because it was better. What's to say that in the next 70 years, 10mm ammo isn't considered a better choice over 9mm, hence making it more common? In my searches, I've found several sites complaining about the ammunition currently used by the military AND law enforcement agencies. Hence the FBI's search for better amunition. The ammunition currently commonly used is 5mm and 9mm. True, in 1950's America, they didn't have 10mm ammunition. But as Dan has said, they didn't have miniguns, power armour or laser rifles either.

Let me ask you this, why does 10mm make more sense in the setting?

I'm not finding anything that says "10mm is bad, don't use it". What I'm finding is "10mm ammo packs a bit more punch but maybe not that much more over 9mm". But if real 10mm ammo and weapons have more punch than 9mm, especially according to that test, than in a world of war and mutants, a world where people need stopping power, isn't it more 'realistic' that they'd be the more common ammunition?

If your only argument is consistancy, then why are you even trying to argue that point?

The point is, they're all pretty much real-world weapons and ammunition as it is today. What's wrong with the decisions that have been made? Changing 10mm to 9mm isn't changing from some non-existant ammunition type to real ammo. It's changing from a seemingly more powerful ammunition type down to a less powerful ammunition type... and for what? Because it's what most people use today? How is that a valid argument?

 

[Gwydion]

Straw man alert. Hardcore strawman here.

Try learning to read. You did not address my argument at all.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Actually, lil, I'm arguing why the cartridge decision never made sense in the first place, not why it makes sense to change. It doesn't make any sense to change in the middle of the series, and I noted as much in my posts. However, JEs reasoning is better than C. Taylor's, if you take JE's out of the context of changin what's in the game.

The Fallout world is similar to our 50's, except with powerful miniguns and lasers. 10mm ammunition is more powerful than 9mm. It is therefore consistent with the setting and likely that in the Fallout world, they developed 10mm ammunition to a better point than we have in our world today. The same way Fallout has power armour, is the same way they have developed and use a better round of 10mm ammuntion.

 

[Gwydion]

The Fallout world is similar to our 50's, except with powerful miniguns and lasers. 10mm ammunition is more powerful than 9mm. It is therefore consistent with the setting and likely that in the Fallout world, they developed 10mm ammunition to a better point than we have in our world today. The same way Fallout has power armour, is the same way they have developed and use a better round of 10mm ammuntion.

Yeah, right. Fallout caliber choices have nothing to do with what's more powerful, if that were true than the hunting rifle would use .308 or bigger, and the machineguns would all use .50 BMG. What a lame argument.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So hang on, your entire argument is that:

10mm and .44 ammunition did not exist in the 1950's.

???

 

[Gwydion]

Well, my argument is more complex than that. Ultimately, the point I'm making is that these calibers aren't good choices for a society based on our fifties for a few reasons:

1) 10mm didn't exist then. Yeah, you could say "Well, they could develop it," but the game world is based on our 50's, not 40 years after our fifties.

2) Any round with a metric designation would be unlikely to be popular in the 50's atmosphere. This is something that definitely would not change. There's a reason 7.65 Browning is .32 ACP here in America. And yes, this applies to 9mm. I acknowledged in my posts that 9mm isn't the best choice either.

3) .44 magnum existed during the '50s, it was created in 1956 by Smith and Wesson, but it was extremely unpopular. In fact, the round was one of their worst selling until the Dirty Harry movies. Since the same conditions would not have existed when they would have been made, I don't think the Dirty Harry movies would exist in the Fallout world. While there may have been another reason for this round to become popular, it doesn't strike me as very likely.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Well, my argument is more complex...

... I'd say insane actually. I thought from the little you had typed, that you were complaining that the real 10mm was bad ammo. Especially since your 'nerfed' comment.

1) 10mm didn't exist then. Yeah, you could say "Well, they could develop it," but the game world is based on our 50's, not 40 years after our fifties.

So then where does power armour come from Gwydion? That wasn't around in the fifties.

Fallout is not just based on our fifties, it is based on our fifties along with what people in the fifties thought our future would be like. Hence the power armour, hence the laser rifles, hence most of the retro-technology present in the game.

Using that argument across board, why are you wanting 10mm changed because it didn't exist in the 50's, yet you're quite happy to allow hand-held miniguns and plasma rifles? Both of which did not exist in the fifties. Why isn't your argument consistent across all weapons? Why are you specifically arguing that THIS SPECIFIC round did not exist in the fifties, and are ignoring the remaining weapons in the game?

2) Any round with a metric designation would be unlikely to be popular in the 50's atmosphere.

According to who? You? Presuming that's the case, can you please explain metric ammunitions presence in both Fallout and Fallout 2?

This is something that definitely would not change.

Again, according to who? You?

There's a reason 7.65 Browning is .32 ACP here in America. And yes, this applies to 9mm. I acknowledged in my posts that 9mm isn't the best choice either.

So then why are you even arguing that 9mm should be included? Why are you even arguing 9mm vs 10mm? Why aren't you saying that 9mm SHOULD NOT be in the game and instead pushing for the ammunition type you DO believe should be present?

3) .44 magnum existed during the '50s, it was created in 1956 by Smith and Wesson, but it was extremely unpopular. In fact, the round was one of their worst selling until the Dirty Harry movies. Since the same conditions would not have existed when they would have been made, I don't think the Dirty Harry movies would exist in the Fallout world. While there may have been another reason for this round to become popular, it doesn't strike me as very likely.

Seems the only person not reading is you, Gwydion. Check that post up there by me. That one with pretty pictures that you said was a 'strawman' article (yet addressed all points raised by you previously in this thread, if you bothered checking).

Here's the little piece of information you're specifically looking for:
Desert Eagle .44: An ancient Desert Eagle pistol, in .44 magnum. Interest in late 20th century films made this one of the most popular handguns of all times.

Seems Fallout says otherwise to what YOU think. Try basing some of your arguments on the facts present in the game, not what you make up. You'll find it works a lot easier.

 

[Odin]

All this over a bullet, but I must say that like Gwydion said: It really does make all that sense to change the ammo in the middle of the series, stick to the plan and keep 10mm...

But all in all, I really couldn't cared less which ammo JE included in this game.

 

[Gwydion]

... I'd say insane actually. I thought from the little you had typed, that you were complaining that the real 10mm was bad ammo. Especially since your 'nerfed' comment.

Nerfed comment? What comment what that exactly?

So then where does power armour come from Gwydion? That wasn't around in the fifties.

Fallout is not just based on our fifties, it is based on our fifties along with what people in the fifties thought our future would be like. Hence the power armour, hence the laser rifles, hence most of the retro-technology present in the game.

Exactly. In a world where the big and slow .45 was considered the ultimate combat handgun round, that vision does not include 10mm.

Using that argument across board, why are you wanting 10mm changed because it didn't exist in the 50's, yet you're quite happy to allow hand-held miniguns and plasma rifles? Both of which did not exist in the fifties. Why isn't your argument consistent across all weapons? Why are you specifically arguing that THIS SPECIFIC round did not exist in the fifties, and are ignoring the remaining weapons in the game?

Because the change in question is about this round specifically, and these weapons don't make sense in the 1950's future. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time, did you just not bother to think about my points long enough to realize that?

According to who? You? Presuming that's the case, can you please explain metric ammunitions presence in both Fallout and Fallout 2?

Uh... According the the attitude in fifties America.

As for why these rounds are in the game, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I'M TELLING YOU THAT CHRIS TAYLOR JUST MADE A BAD CHOICE ABOUT THE GUNS IN THE GAME, OR HAVE YOU NOT PICKED UP ON THAT?

This is something that definitely would not change.

Again, according to who? You?

No, according to the premise of the Fallout world. The game world consists of 1950s attitudes and ideas of future technology. If you start claiming that all that changes, why bother pretending Fallout is retrotech at all?

I think OTB said it best:

The FO universe is all about the commie-huntin', paranoid, US of A, except that this time the '60s never came and all of those attitudes hung around. Hence I'd say that pretty much any cartridge with a metric designation would be taboo. Why? Because we all know that the metric system is part of a communist plot to befuddle American school children, leaving their weakened minds more succeptible to indoctrination by infiltrators in the educational system who are also busy getting them to drink flouridated water. That's why!

See, it's all part of the attack on our precious bodily fluids.

So then why are you even arguing that 9mm should be included? Why are you even arguing 9mm vs 10mm? Why aren't you saying that 9mm SHOULD NOT be in the game and instead pushing for the ammunition type you DO believe should be present?

Oh, boy. Now it's really obvious that you haven't been reading my posts. I did acknowledge that 9mm is not a good choice. In fact, I suggested that .38 would be a much better choice. Until 9mm became popular, .38 was the most popular round in America, and it saw widespread use by police and even some elements of the military.

Seems the only person not reading is you, Gwydion.

How's that? In this post alone you've displayed almost a totaly ignorance not only for the Fallout setting in general but also for my previous posts in the topic. Do you even know what forum you're arguing on?

Check that post up there by me. That one with pretty pictures that you said was a 'strawman' article (yet addressed all points raised by you previously in this thread, if you bothered checking).

Here's the little piece of information you're specifically looking for:
Desert Eagle .44: An ancient Desert Eagle pistol, in .44 magnum. Interest in late 20th century films made this one of the most popular handguns of all times.

Actually, I did read that. However, since Chris Taylor clearly put very little thought into all of his other weapon and caliber choices -- did you notice for example that the art for the 10mm semi-auto was a revolver -- that this was a reference to the extremely common appearance of the gun in our own modern movies.

In retrospect, perhaps you're right on this point. It may be that .44 is the one justifyable cartridge choice, if you take it out of context of his other choices.

Seems Fallout says otherwise to what YOU think.

Only when you don't think about any of it, Chuckles.