Vladmir Putin

I can't believe I missed this little nugget of stupidity:

donperkan said:
Their collapse was caused by external factors, not because they weren't sustainable. Thats why i'm fascinated by those systems. If left alone or excluded from global interactions they will focus on resources and meterials within their boundaries which will create enough commodities to supply their people. The problem occurs when they collide with other systems.
This is one of the most ignorant, delusional statements I have ever read. Seriously, pick up a history book, because this is just embarrassing. One of the principal reasons why communism failed is because it patently could not create enough commodities to supply its own people. Which is why communist nations suffered endemic famines which claimed millions of lives, and why they were afflicted by intermittent shortages of basic necessities. The only reason why Yugoslavia itself didn't starve is because it was reasonably open to the West, so it had open credit lines with western banks, as well as constant influx of foreign currency from emigres working abroad. Even with these advantages, shortages of things like fuel and coffee were endemic in Yugoslavia, as attested, for example, by the instatement of the even-odd policy for drivers in the 1980s.

The example of national-socialism is even more ridiculous, because without external factors national-socialism wouldn't even have come to exist, let alone become the governing system in Germany. The admittedly impressive economic recovery Germany managed in the 1930s was fueled by the burgeoning military industry, which in turn was a result of expansionist policies directed against Germany's neighbors - in other words, "external factors".

If you want an example of a fully autarchic communist system at work, look no further than North Korea in the 1990s. Subsequent to the loss of Soviet fuel aid, North Korea was ravaged by a famine that claimed an estimated 3.5 million lives. Wow, their government sure did a great job supplying the people. Supplying them with death, that is.

Only a system with centralised power can produce results in a short time. A government sees a gap or an insufficiency it immediately activates mechanisms to counter this, it doesn't have to concern it self with cost or the situation on the market. It needs something fast, it reroutes resources and stimulates its growth.
Sander already addressed this utterly idiotic claim, but you conveniently ignored his response, so let me try and give you a clue:

In totalitarian systems governed by dogmatic ideologies the government has routinely made disastrous economic decisions that have resulted in famines, shortages, hyperinflations and mass emigrations, exacting an enormous toll in economic well-being and human lives.

Socialist planning is, and has always been, a recipe for disaster, and catastrophic decision making in communist countries has caused more deaths than both world wars combined. Only one economic "decision-maker" has ever proven itself to be consistently rational and effective at creating economic growth, and that is the invisible hand of the free market. Keeping in mind the inherent imperfection of the invisible hand, the role of the state in the economy should be restricted to two things: 1) intervention when the free market mechanisms fail, and 2) regulation to make sure these failures happen as rarely as possible.

Does the free market system guarantee prosperity and high standard of living for all? Not at all, other ingredients are needed as well, such as liberal democracy and the welfare state. I'll tell you what else it doesn't guarantee, though - it doesn't guarantee mass starvation and suffering of millions, which are the consistent net result of centralized planning, and the grim legacy of communism in those countries that were unfortunate enough to adopt it.
 
@ Senna M
Wow i have never seen a bigger pile of shit in a single post.

You see former yougoslavia during Titos reign is a shiny example of socialism. It had good sides and bad sides. The bad sides are pretty common for that form of government, the good sides is where it shines. Mechanisms where in place that allowed every citizen equal opportunities. The govenment provided healthcare, education and employment opportunities for all if you complied and accepted its terms, if you didn't comply then the government used those same mechanisms to punish you. When i said something is fishy here what i ment was that your parents either head-butted with the system or you are full of shit. My fathers collection believe it or not was not uncommon he wouldn't acquire them if it was. Shopping in Trieste was not a luxury nor a necessity. Some things where not sold in Yugoslavia but that doesn't mean that that commodity was scearce the govenment only forced the population to consume domestic products. Of course some commodities had limited availability gas coffy and so on in those cases the goverment sought to their equal distibution or substitution. The prices of those commodities didn't rise. The people didn't have to worry whether they will have enough mony to buy gas when their turn comes. Money whas not the issue spending it was becuse once you spend on housing, tranportation, clothes and food you ran out of things to buy, well exept booze. Traveling was not prohibited as a matter of fact yougoslavian passport was very valuable bacause it allowed one to freely travel to both blocs, spies where often smuggled inn and out of countries with yugoslavian passports. And then one day Tito died, the people that took over started to abuse their power and war broke out. I am sorry to hear about your parents and their bad experience with the system they obviously tougt they had to leave if they wanted to offer their children better lives and education which BTW didn't do you any good.


I tought i posted this before but it seems i broke the reply page. I remembrer reading na article weyback about China and its steel production, they wanted to increase it so they would overtake America as world leader a very prestigious achievement in their eyes. They ultimately succeeded. The death toll was in hundreds of thousands, environmental impact was severe which forced relocation of the affected population. A good argument for both supporters and opposers becuse it shows what can be achieved if you ignore the cost. In a democratic sYstem this move would be debated and eventually opposed, but the party doesn't have to concer it self with public opinion. I am against that kind of aggressive politics but never the less i am impressed.

Sander i agree that the rapid industrialization of a govermnent with a totalitarian system is dependent on many factors but if those prerequisites are met, if enough resources of a broad spectrum are present then the only obstacle that remains is the intelligence of the man behind the wheel
 
donperkan said:
The govenment provided healthcare, education and employment opportunities for all

Are you defending socialism? Employment means nothing if you earn the same as someone who slacks off. Senna M is absolutely right on socialism. And trust me, he and his family is far from being the only ones tormented out there, hundreds of millions have suffered the exact same way.

Hell, Putin holding onto power for a decade and now going for another 12 years is the direct effect of socialism. Russia degraded and they don't even care about who rules them no more.
 
@Senna M

You seem rather materialistic so that may be one of the reasons for your confusion and the lack of understanding regarding the communism related fond sentiments. The reason why your parents and many other people are experiencing this fondness towards Yugoslavia despite not owning a FlatscreenSegwayiPodMcCola dispenser at the time is not out of some emo-tide of sheer nostalgia, it's mostly for many other logical reasons. First, one thing that was greatly endorsed and loved at the time is that there was a shared mutual feeling of comaradery and brotherhood amongst the Yugoslavian people. The kind that was achieved by the workers, peasants and the proleteriat in general finally overthrowing the shackles of their capitalist and religious overlords and getting the chance to do thing right this time. That as we know failed because some of them eventually became the things they hated the most and eventually formed the party autocracy, the cults of personalities and many other things that communism's main objective was to destroy. That sentiment of everyone being equal individuals who transecended the artificial molds like nationality and religion and working together towards a better life for everyone is one of the main reasons for the fondness many experience towards Yugoslavia.

Other important aspects are things like free education, guaranteed jobs, housing, healthcare, basic living supplies, etc.

And people didn't go to Trieste becuase they lacked something per se, they went there to buy cheap jeans and Cola :lol:
 
donperkan said:
@ Senna M
Wow i have never seen a bigger pile of shit in a single post.

You see former yougoslavia during Titos reign is a shiny example of socialism. It had good sides and bad sides.
The good side only present for the rich politicians and corrupt leaders the bad side can be seen today by the starving population.

I see it so many times. How the "old" people in serbia want the system back. How it was back then. Those poor people. Only very few of them understand that exactly those people they see as great politicians (which does not only include milosevic in Serbia but as well Tudman in croatia) have been the reason for the issues today. All of them regardless which side of the conflict have done everything only for themself to cumulate power. Not for their people.

You should listen to Sena. He knows what he is talking about.
 
zegh8578 said:
i must admit a slight man-crush on putin

b6412bfe-9ee3-46b7-8f0b-54b4d8c99297-big.jpg

aww, thats okay putin!

Holy shit, wtf? Can we discuss his face for a minute??
 
maximaz said:
zegh8578 said:
i must admit a slight man-crush on putin

b6412bfe-9ee3-46b7-8f0b-54b4d8c99297-big.jpg

aww, thats okay putin!

Holy shit, wtf? Can we discuss his face for a minute??

its his "gasp! you love me! you really love me!"-face after his re-election just now :]
 
Crni Vuk said:
donperkan said:
@ Senna M
Wow i have never seen a bigger pile of shit in a single post.

You see former yougoslavia during Titos reign is a shiny example of socialism. It had good sides and bad sides.
The good side only present for the rich politicians and corrupt leaders the bad side can be seen today by the starving population.

I see it so many times. How the "old" people in serbia want the system back. How it was back then. Those poor people. Only very few of them understand that exactly those people they see as great politicians (which does not only include milosevic in Serbia but as well Tudman in croatia) have been the reason for the issues today. All of them regardless which side of the conflict have done everything only for themself to cumulate power. Not for their people.

You should listen to Sena. He knows what he is talking about.

What the hell does Tuđman have to do with being pro-communism?

And instead of looking at it objectively, pros and cons included, you just completely ignore the positives (wich were many) and try to paint it black. It wasn't black. It was mostly grey, with shades of red :). Something tells me that you were born in the 90's and have no idea what the bloody hell you are actually talking about.

And read my previous post to get a better picture of why people often have positive memories about those days.
 
What the hell does Tuđman have to do with being pro-communism?

And instead of looking at it objectively, pros and cons included, you just completely ignore the positives (wich were many) and try to paint it black. It wasn't black. It was mostly grey, with shades of red Smile. Something tells me that you were born in the 90's and have no idea what the bloody hell you are actually talking about.

And read my previous post to get a better picture of why people often have positive memories about those days.

Crni is >40 mang.
 
Crni Vuk said:
The good side only present for the rich politicians and corrupt leaders the bad side can be seen today by the starving population.

Peole are struggling today because of currupted leaders.

Crni Vuk said:
I see it so many times. How the "old" people in serbia want the system back. How it was back then. Those poor people. Only very few of them understand that exactly those people they see as great politicians (which does not only include milosevic in Serbia but as well Tudman in croatia) have been the reason for the issues today. All of them regardless which side of the conflict have done everything only for themself to cumulate power. Not for their people.


People might be gulible but they are not stupid. Nobody wants those two scumbags back, well few do those are either old timers who lived only for war, or children who do not know the meaning of war.

I just described paradise and you decided to ignore it.


Sub-Human said:
Are you defending socialism?

You could say im defending titoism but defending is not the right word. I am trying to point out that totalitarian systems do have their positive sides and that democraties can be just as bad.

El Pagano Loco said:
And read my previous post to get a better picture of why people often have positive memories about those days.

Mine too.
 
donperkan said:
Crni Vuk said:
The good side only present for the rich politicians and corrupt leaders the bad side can be seen today by the starving population.

Peole are struggling today because of currupted leaders.


This is an interesting thought, very interesting for post soviet countries, such as mine! Now, after 20 years of independance and "democratic" growth, we have a huge problem with corrupt politicians and other state officials. Now how can this be? How come our standart of living is not THAT much better than it was 20 years ago? The answer is pretty simple - almost 60 years of soviet union treatment, brought up and bolstered a culture of bribery, thievery and means of getting past the prohibitions (and you had to, because there was a shortage of everyfucking thing: fruit, alcohol, cars, furniture, TV's you name it). The only people that remember that time with fondness are layabouts alcoholics and the elite, because it was easier for them to lead a degraded life in those conditions. After fighting and getting back our independance, the same characters that were in the soviet elite, served the KGB and had a good life that was build on the feculent foundations of the USSR, took over the most important posts. And so began the decline (oh the joy of privatization in the hands of former communists). Some of them are dead now, but their heirs, relatives and friends continue to "man the posts".

Until the last post communistic vermind die out, and our culture redevelops itself, we will not have a prosperus life.

I don't like the current systems, but i sure as hell wouldn't want to have another USSR over them....
 
donperkan said:
Reading your last post it's obvious to me we have absolutely no common ground for productive debate. My conclusion is that you're either a troll or someone who lives in a separate reality from mine, one where history happened completely differently and where normal logic doesn't apply.

If latter is the case, I can only reiterate my advice to you - move to North Korea. Their political and economic system should be right up your alley, and with your capacity for self-delusion I expect you to fit right in.
 
zegh8578 said:
maximaz said:
zegh8578 said:
i must admit a slight man-crush on putin

b6412bfe-9ee3-46b7-8f0b-54b4d8c99297-big.jpg

aww, thats okay putin!

Holy shit, wtf? Can we discuss his face for a minute??

its his "gasp! you love me! you really love me!"-face after his re-election just now :]

I'm talking about the shape of it. It looks botoxed to shit. I don't remember him ever looking that grotesque.
 
maximaz said:
zegh8578 said:
maximaz said:
zegh8578 said:
i must admit a slight man-crush on putin

b6412bfe-9ee3-46b7-8f0b-54b4d8c99297-big.jpg

aww, thats okay putin!

Holy shit, wtf? Can we discuss his face for a minute??

its his "gasp! you love me! you really love me!"-face after his re-election just now :]

I'm talking about the shape of it. It looks botoxed to shit. I don't remember him ever looking that grotesque.

You are just making him angrier.

putin_1877112c.jpg
 
donperkan said:
Peole are struggling today because of currupted leaders. .
They also suffered already back then. jesus fucking christ did you even read Senas posts? Hello. Dude. We. Had. No. Fucking. Gasoline. If you wanted to have some you had to buy it on the black market (of some sort) together with cigarets. That people didn't starved on mass was actually because Yugoslavia was not a strict stalinistic system where you could risk to disappear in some gulag if you even mentioned a wish to travel around the world. But Yugo land was not that socialistic dream state as some think. And Tito and his cohunes regardless of the courage he has shown in war have been idiots. They ruined the nation and set the basis for quite some conflicts which we saw in the 90s. People didn't just started the war out of fun but because they have been a bit frustrated about the Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia.

Have there been people living "well" in Yugoslavia? I am sure. I mean I have no doubts some people enjoyed a nice live in the Soviet Union as well. Does not mean the system was well. Or that it worked for the large part of the population. Hell it was not rate that people worked for months without money. Because the company they worked for simply had none. It has a reason why even in the biggest towns you saw everyone having a garden with chickens running around. Many people have grown their own crops and animals.

donperkan said:
You could say im defending titoism but defending is not the right word. I am trying to point out that totalitarian systems do have their positive sides and that democraties can be just as bad.
I agree with one thing. A democracy can be bad. A totalitarian system is always bad. its like comparing a summer flue with AIDS you know. It can go well. But you still dont want it.
 
Crni Vuk said:
They also suffered already back then. jesus fucking christ did you even read Senas posts? Hello. Dude. We. Had. No. Fucking. Gasoline. If you wanted to have some you had to buy it on the black market (of some sort) together with cigarets.

lol you only repeat what you where told and the truth is far from that. The gas shortage lasted only a couple of years in the 70s it affected the whole world even Senas precious america had to ration it.

You obviously never smoked Drava.

Crni Vuk said:
That people didn't starved on mass was actually because Yugoslavia was not a strict stalinistic system where you could risk to disappear in some gulag if you even mentioned a wish to travel around the world.

That's the point a socialist system that didn't have the same flaws as it's counterparts

Crni Vuk said:
But Yugo land was not that socialistic dream state as some think. And Tito and his cohunes regardless of the courage he has shown in war have been idiots. They ruined the nation and set the basis for quite some conflicts which we saw in the 90s. People didn't just started the war out of fun but because they have been a bit frustrated about the Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia.

Tito didn't lay the tracks for war Milošević did. Why are you putting Milošević and Tito in the same contrast. Tito pacified five nations and three religons he ended their bickering

Crni Vuk said:
Have there been people living "well" in Yugoslavia? I am sure. I mean I have no doubts some people enjoyed a nice live in the Soviet Union as well. Does not mean the system was well. Or that it worked for the large part of the population.

It did, you only think it didn't because it met a bloody end.

Crni Vuk said:
Hell it was not rate that people worked for months without money. Because the company they worked for simply had none.

Working without pay was simply not possible because the govenment put in place a wonderful mechanism called obrtna banka, this banks sole purpose was to make sure the worker was paid in dinars

Crni Vuk said:
It has a reason why even in the biggest towns you saw everyone having a garden with chickens running around. Many people have grown their own crops and animals.

A personal garden was not a necessity. Are you kidding me.


Atomkila posted that kids didn't know a whole lot about the war and the former yugoslavia but the problem is far greater it appears.

It collapsed democracy was formed on it's ashes. The winner writes the history.
 
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