Was I supposed to feel bad? (The Pitt DLC Discussion)

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by The Man From Nowhere, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. The Man From Nowhere

    The Man From Nowhere It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 28, 2017
    There's this sense I get from the narrative, and even the way I hear people talk about it that I was supposed to feel guilty or something for taking the baby away and then killing her mother Sandra (Ashurs wife)? Because I shotgunned her in the stomach right before I left and felt quite good about it.

    I've often heard people make her out to be some innocent mother and how terrible it is taking away her child from her. Yet she essentially supported slavery on a mass level and her husband the entire time knowing everything that was going on, only difference was she wasn't out doing it herself like her husband and the other Pitt raiders.

    I didn't like her at all, let alone to feel any ounce of sympathy or anything like that.
  2. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Ashur doesn't like using slaves, and also doesn't like the word "slave". He is only using them because it is the only way to build a future for The Pitt.
    He uses slaves because no one else would want to work in The Pitt because of all the radiation sickness. His plan is to build a industrial community that will benefit mankind for the future.

    He says that once the cure is found (using his daughter Marie to do it), he won't need to force people to work anymore and will free all the slaves. After that he will continue using the industrial complex in The Pitt to pave the road for the benefit of mankind. A community that will be fair for everyone, leader and workers (where everyone will be prosperous and work on their own free will). It will be a prosperous place that can make use of the pre-war machinery to help mankind's future.

    Basically, Ashur's doing a bad thing now to lead to a good thing for everyone. Exactly like "the end justifies the means". He is not proud of it, he doesn't even like it, but he is doing it to make the wasteland a better place for everyone.

    Now Wernher says he wants to save the slaves, but what he does and says shows that he actually just want to sit in Ashur's throne. He doesn't mind killing an innocent baby if that makes that ascension to power faster. After we depose Ashur and Wernher takes control, everyone is still a slave and working exactly the same as when they were under Ashur's rule. No one is free, no one leaves The Pitt, nothing changes.

    Basically, Wernher's just a power hungry bastard that makes a revolt just so he can control The Pitt.

    If you should feel bad for taking one side or another is all up to you though. :lmao:
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  3. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    I never thought about it, but I guess that means I never particularly cared about executing slavers.

    Based on what?
  4. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Risewild is a part of the TTW team. Considering it's Fallout 3 that's getting incorporated into New Vegas, I would assume that it's Fallout 3 + the DLCs that's getting played to hell and back to ensure its stability and bug-free while being played using New Vegas's better engine. Based on reading Risewild's post in the past, I can agree to him remembering literally everything about Fallout 3, New Vegas, and its DLCs like the back of his hand.

    Or maybe it's just Bethesda being Bethesda, who overlooked to implement proper reactivity for players who choose certain options.
  5. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Based on beating The Pitt supporting Wernher. When you go back to the Pitt, the slaves are still in the same place, doing the same thing. Still live in the same area (instead of moving to Uptown where Ashur's "guards" used to live), Midea's is experimenting on Marie to find the cure in her tiny ruined "house" instead of doing it in the much nicer lab in Haven (Ashur's Home).

    Also Midea says some things that don't strike me as Wernher freeing people or letting them go:
    Wernher takes the "ruler" position right away, and things just get worst for the "workers".

    EDIT: I just remembered that even Wernher's own words made me think he was a power hungry bastard that doesn't care for the slaves or the Pitt. So I went to check it out:
    Still call them slaves and plans on having Marie being raised as a slave too :V.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  6. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Ashur is kind of a visionary madman who has let the human cost of his actions overwhelm his morality. He's single-handedly supporting all of Paradise Falls' business with his actions and the idea of rebuilding Pittsburgh is of extreme questionableness. However, he is motivated by a desire to save humanity.

    Wernher is evil but doesn't care as long as he gets his revenge. He'll also follow you if you say you're in charge.

    The choice is between someone who is a Well-Intentioned Extremist with great goals but evil methods versus someone who is evil yet less dangerous.


    My opinion of the ending is the fact that whatever happens, the situation in the Pit dramatically improves as the inoculation which makes sure you have 20% radiation resistance is going to mean the people are no longer suffering the worst of the conditions either way. Killing Ashur and his Raiders will benefit the place in some ways but I expect most of the population will stay anyway because getting back to the Capital Wasteland isn't an easy journey anyway.

    Getting rid of his Raiders and Slaver colleagues will benefit the situation if you side with Ashur as well.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
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  7. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    Risewild might need to confirm this since it's been a while, but from what I remember Ashur's wife suffers heavily from peripheral character syndrome. Since she doesn't get a whole lot of time in the narrative, it's only natural for the player not to give a fuck if she lives or dies. She's essentially a plot/gameplay object.
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  8. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    You literally have 3 minute conversation with her and Ashur and you get a choice to help Werhner or Ashur. You can steal some logs from her and Ashur's safe that give her more screentime than that.
    Other than that she has radiant quest if you helped Ashur (collecting teddy bears if I recall correctly).
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  9. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I think that's part of the twist that Ashur has this loving wife and scientist spouse who comes out of nowhere. Just further insight that Ashur isn't your typical Raider.
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  10. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    The LW set the trogs loose on uptown. I assumed it was not a viable place to live anymore.

    Someone needs to be in charge. And given that she says 'I don't know how Ashur did it' indicates that people were trying to tear each other apart before, so that doesn't indicate a worsening state of affairs.

    What else would he call them? The former slaves, the people, whatever people from Pittsburg are called or something along those lines? I guess that's worrying, but he strikes me more as laziness on their devs part than as a hint of what's 'really happening'. When you free slaves in game they don't get a new title/generic name in any other situation so it seems fairly consistent with that.

    The next block o' quotes start off with two similarly ambiguous statements as, unless I'm mistaken, those are said after you tell him that you're betraying him to work for Ashur. Seems like the sort of thing someone would say in that situation. The rest indicate that he's power hungry and probably corrupt, but relative to the Fallout world that doesn't mean a whole lot. It doesn't mean that he's imposing slavery.

    Corporal punishment on the other hand is clearly indicated. I recall surviving in the Pitt is difficult so it's not like anyone who remains is going to have any easy time of things, and people are trying to kill each other. That they'd have to work their asses off under horrible conditions to survive just seems logical. So there are less terrible conclusions than 'everything is the same or worse' which are plausible. This is not to say that you're interpretation is wrong, it's just that there's only so much that we can definitively draw from what we see.
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  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    A reminder again that while the game doesn't do much with it, you can say you're the Lord of the Pitt.

    And Wernher goes along with it.
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  12. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Dec 6, 2016
    Free the slaves or NOT free them? I always choose the first option.
  13. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Treading Water Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Ashur was one of the best parts of Fallout 3.
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  14. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    As a Pennsylvania resident, I can't tell you how relieved I am the only part of the series that takes place here actually does the state justice. People complain that the Pitt was short (and it was), but ultimately I think that helped the DLC retain some respect in the long run. What did exist was quality compared to the rest of Fallout 3. Genuinely creative explorations of post-government politics, ambiguous moral decisions, multiple endings; it has a lot going for it.
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  15. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    If you're taking over the Pitt, you will not want a place full of trogs right around the corner. Not to mention that Haven has much better equipped facilities and probably research notes that could improve the speed of finding the cure.
    Also one wouldn't even need to kill the trogs. All one needs to do is repeat the Lone Wanderer's steps that lead to the trogs invading and turn the flood lights on again (which scares the trogs away, back to their "territory"). The Lone Wanderer did it once (to turn the lights off), it can do it again (probably even easier, since most or all trogs in the path to the terminal are now dead).
    No, it indicates that Ashur managed to not have people tear each other apart. But Midea doesn't know how he did it. Also, Ashur punished harshly any of guards that mistreated slaves. While in Wernher's case, people are all in a salvage state, trying to kill each other, no law or order.
    Which means that Wernher sucks at being in charge or it makes it worst for people living there.
    Erm... Ashur calls them workers, and even lectures his own right hand man when he calls them slaves. Names matter and just by this little example, we can see that Ashur cares more for the workers than Wernher does.
    The devs were lazy, but clearly made sure that the player knows that Ashur calls them workers and doesn't like when their own men call them slaves (with an entire unskippable and unmissable conversation that you have to watch before continuing the story), but then just make Wernher still call them slaves after they are "free"? I doubt that.
    No, those quotes is if you try to convince Wernher to leave without a fight.
    I also don't agree that would be the sort of thing someone would say in that situation, unless they are childish assholes that got angry that their dreams of power got shattered. What a person that cares for The Pitt and/or the slaves would say would probably be something like "Fine, you win. But you will have to live with the suffering of The Pitt people's in your conscience." or "Hope you know you're condemning The Pitt's people to a lifetime of slavery and suffering. I am out of here." or anything like that.
    Not to mention Wernher's also lies in some conversations. He says that if Ashur gets the cure, no one will be able to free the slaves anymore, Ashur and his guards will have all the power. But Ashur makes it quite clear that he will free the slaves once he gets the cure. It's no secret and Ashur's quite adamant to tell you and anyone that wants listen, his great plans for the future of The Pitt.
    Some of my quotes were more aimed at the "author notes" that came with the quote. The "author notes" are notes that the writer places on the script to help the voice actors to know how to speak/say/intone certain parts of the script. It is the perfect way of knowing what the writer's want to demonstrate in the dialogue and many times shines a light on the personality of the character.

    Those notes show without a doubt that the writer wanted Wernher to be a power hungry, lying, bloodthirsty, deceiving bastard that doesn't care about anything besides being in control and that he even plans to betray the Lone Wanderer (just like he tried to do with Ashur and got demoted from right hand man to a slave himself).

    Here, I will quote a few more and bold the "author notes" used to convey Wernher's personality:
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  16. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    We have to be careful about what we can and can't rule out, i.e making assumptions.

    We don't know the total trog population. We know they eat humans, and not other trogs. Naturally that would mean that trogs will keep coming toward human habitats. Any that the LW killed are likely replaced now that they have free reign of the area. The numbers the LW encountered were those there when the slavers were keeping them at bay (more than we ever saw). We also don't know if more would just keep coming, increasing their density in the area. Presumably, places actively cleared have less than those next to them, which have less than those next to them.

    We can speculate that it's possible to clear them out, but for all we know the lights, grid, etc needed regular repairs to work. For all we know the fighting damaged things. If the principle is the same as with wild animals in the real world, then it's effect is entirely moot once they're in the area that you want to keep them out of. It's more of a barrier than an actual repellent. It spooks, not hurts.

    Less than you think. Read carefully please. It doesn't indicate that either is managing to stop all violence. They might be, they might not be. It only indicates that both had/have something to stop from happening. Their success level is not really indicated. The rest is speculation without support. Not much to say about that.

    Him calling them workers is propaganda. It's coded language. Labels don't define people. Werhner also says they're freed. It's contradictory, but the fact that freed slave is an oxymoron doesn't stop people from using it. And Werhner may just be acknowledging that they have been slaves. It's not like more than five minutes have passed since they were 'freed' before he says it, or that anyone's going to jump in and say 'well actually we're free people because we're not enslaved anymore.'

    It's the same thing. You meet him in his hideaway and say that you're side with Ashur IIRC. That would be you betraying him, whether you ask him to leave nicely or not.

    "Oh, I see how it is. You signed on with Ashur, and now you're going to stand by your man. Maybe trying to catch his eye and be his queen? Well, good luck with that, starfucker. I'm sure the two of you will kill each other eventually, even without my help. You, him, and this whole town can burn for all I care. I'm gone."

    Sounds like a bitter, jaded man speaking in anger because he was just betrayed.

    People say things they don't mean in anger. I didn't think I needed to point that out.

    I'm sorry, I honestly can't help but laugh here. It's fine if you want to believe him, but his propaganda is not prophesy. Even if he recorded saying as much to his daughter in those holo-whatevers that would just mean that he wanted her to believe it too. That isn't to say he couldn't be sincere, but Fallout generally doesn't reward innocence.

    I said it before, and I'll say it again. he's definitely a power hungry asshole. This doesn't indicate that the slaves aren't free, or that he never intended to free them. He definitely doesn't give two shits about that baby. Their living conditions certainly didn't change dramatically overnight, though that was never in the cards.

    On another note "Suggesting that he was going to betray the player" doesn't mean that he was planning to. Writers sometimes want their audience to consider things that aren't actually true. Also something I never expected to explain, but I guess that's a writer's affliction.
  17. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Trogs don't reproduce, they are created by the radiation sickness. Most (if not all) of the trogs got decimated when the BoS made what is known as "the Scourge", that happened 22 years before the Lone Wanderer reaches the Pitt. Since it is stated ingame that it takes years for a person to become a trog and that most people die instead of becoming trogs (75%-80% of adult people infected by TDC die instead of turning into trogs and only adults become trogs). We can safely assume that the trog population is not that high. Specially since guards and steelyard "workers" are implied to kill some from time to time.
    What I just wrote is assumptions substanciated by what information the game provide us. But we can also see those results ingame.

    I just played The Pitt picking Werhner side to refresh my memory and to make sure I don't spread misinformation. We can go back to the area where the light terminal is, I only encountered 4 trogs this time, while the first time I encountered waves of them. Those 4 were probably some I didn't kill the first time, since i rushed to the terminal. We can go back to the terminal without any problems.
    But we do know the state of things in Uptown. The game doesn't block access to it at all after you beat the DLC.
    I just did so and there was 5 or 6 trogs there. Nothing I couldn't deal with by myself. The lights and fences show no sign of damage at all, nothing in the infrastructure changes. Not only that, but Haven still has it's lights on, and no trogs were near it:

    This enforces what I said, there is nothing preventing us from just go there and wipe the trogs out and lock the fence gate that the trogs first come from. Then we just stroll to the terminal and turn the lights on. If the lights or fences needed repair for whatever reason, we have an entire work force to fix those things for us. Nothing would be stopping it.
    It says "I don't know how Ashur's managed to stop people from wanting to kill each other". If people don't want to kill each other, then they wouldn't be killing each other... I don't see how you can think that under Ashur was as bad as under Werhner when those words leave nothing to imagination...
    Ashur = People don't want to kill each other = Order.
    Werhner = People want to kill each other = Chaos.
    And I can't help laugh too. It is not propaganda. Ashur does want to free the slave and help The Pitt become a free citizenship place. If you don't believe his own words when he explains in great detail his plans, and you don't believe what he says in his diary for his daughter. Then read the writer's notes at the end of this post.
    But how would you not believe his words for his daughter but you believe a untrustworthy bastard like Werhner?

    To refresh the memory about what he say to his daughter in those diaries you mentioned:

    He says he saw the Pitt with it's working steel mill the perfect opportunity to rebuilt civilization in a "world of leftovers" is not proud of using slaves, how forced labor is only a temporary measure and how her (Marie) will be considered a hero by the time she is 10 years old, because she would have been the cause for the cure that will help the entire city? Why would he lie to his own daughter in his own diary that is locked in a safe and that is the only container in the entire room that is considered "owned", you can freely take anything else from that room, including the stuff from a dresser and a desk.

    If you still can't see how Ashur is really honest about his plans, then the head-cannon is too strong and I can't sway you with any of this information then try the writer's notes at the end of this post.
    There is a poor guy that is rolling on the floor saying how he is very sick, and the game gives an option to try to heal him (if we have enough medicine skill, which I didn't in this character) or the option to leave him be or to end his misery. I came back a couple days after "liberating" The Pitt and he is still there suffering. All the "workers" still complain about how much they are forced to work, how they just want to rest, how they can't talk and have to work, etc.
    Not only that, but even Milly, a slave that was friendly towards me (because I found out what had happened to Wild Bill) before I beat the DLC, now just tells me aggressively to "Go Away!" instead of being friendly again.

    This is all in the game and showing it right in our face, the slaves are forced to work the same under Ashur or Werhner, slaves that were friendly to you are aggressive now, no slave thanks you or is happy in any way, no slave mentions being free or working on their own free will, etc. The slave that is sick in the middle of the ground is still rolling on the ground suffering... Nothing changes.
    Reaching at straws now? How about how the writer notes in this case "Now that Ashur's gone, there's gonna be some changes around here, believe me. {Pleased with himself, a little ominous}"?
    There is nothing to be interpreted by the word ominous, it means "with evil intent". Or the so many notes of "Untrustworthy" or how he lies about Ashur's plans (which the game shows are true).

    We already take a look on Werhner's notes that the writer provided. So why not take a look at Ashur's writer's notes too:
    If you still want me to believe that the writer wanted to make Werhner the one to free the slaves and Ashur a liar that just want to keep using slaves to work on his city... Well, I can't imagine how you would still think that.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018