Wasteland 2 released!

[Geech]

Wasteland 2 gameplay isn't a mess, it's actually fun. I find the combat fun, too. I don't know why so many don't.

 

[woo1108]

If combat lacks depth in a game that is full of combat, then the entire game lacks depth.
Soldat already explained that earlier and I agree with him.

Then Fallouts also have problem of lacking of depth.
what a great logic it is!
how about Torement?
or Ultima?
or Wasteland 1?
wow... just..wow...

I think it is fair to say that many of the games you mention here took quite some criticism for their combat. Not that this would be some kind of excuse in my opinion. There is no reason why a game, where fighting is a part of it, should come with mediocre combat. Simply none. I mean like doing it on purpose. If you dont have enough time and resources or expertise to make it awesome, then it is a different story. But why should anyone be satisfied with mediocre or even bad combat only because the story in the game is awesome? Even in Torment which is really a great game, combat is still important and I feel that it really lacks something here. It just never felt right for me, like as it was unfinished. Games are not interactive movies, gameplay is at least as important like the story you experience.

I really hope that fighting and combat mechanics will not be simply some mediocre experience in Torment Numnera, fighting should still feel great, even in a game where dialogues and good writing are the main focus.

But game itself is actually great.
non-linear game play, fun combat but poor sound effect, great graphic, good field level design, etc.

Which is worth shit if the game doesnt run well because of bugs or if the game play is giving you the rage, it is like to own the best car money can buy, but it is delivered without the steering wheel. Gothic 3 had a lot of design issues when they released the game, because one-shoting boars are so fun ... no, seriously I have no doubts that the game had potential, but Gothic 3 was a mess, there is no way anyone could argue about that. And without the awesome community behind that eventually fixed all the bugs, the game would be still a mess.

I didn't experience much bug after using community patch.
for me, past of the game doesn't matter. what matter for me is now.
I can played G3 without much bug now thanks to community patch.
So complaining it about bug just because it was released with full of bug is pointless because it doesn't matter now.

Think about Thief series, their combat isn't that satisfying.
but does that matter for enjoying Thief?
how about Fallout? I think it's quest and RP is enough for me to enjoying them.
and I think they worth to be one of the best game I ever played even their combat is broken.
even the combat is broken, at least it done it's role: obstacle to be overcame.

and WL2 has better combat then Fallouts and it works fine to achieve it's object: tactical situations.
combat itself isn't that great. I'm agree with that but it played it's rule well.
there are many combat situations that can be avoided or make situation more advantage to me.
so I think WL2's combat is good enough because it played it's role well.

 

[Crni Vuk]

for me, past of the game doesn't matter. what matter for me is now.

it would, if you bought the game fresh from the shelves. And that is what I am talking about. We can not always hope for the community to fix shitty development. And neither should we.

*I am not talking about Wasteland 2 here, I mean this in general.

Think about Thief series, their combat isn't that satisfying.
but does that matter for enjoying Thief?

The combat in thief is mediocre, but it doesnt "suck". That is the point. Thief is a good game, no doubts about that, and I think the stealth gameplay, the story and all the other stuff helps a lot here to get over the mediocre combat, which gets the job, most of the time, done. But that is again, no excuse or defence to make your game like that. Best example, Planescape Torment. I simply hate the combat in that game, and I am saying this with coming from Baldurs Gate 1+2 which I really liked. Its not a perfect game, but the combat is a lot better compared to PT. It might be just my opinion, but I believe that we are not playing interactive movies, we are playing games, and with games gameplay is just as important like story telling and narrative. And combat is usually part of the gameplay. You could argue, that a game with perfect story would have no reason to give you decent combat mechanics, but I dont think that it should work like that, not if you ask me, because at some point the bad mechanics will outweight the good ones, its most of the time like that, at least for me, its stupid ... but well. Hence why it is so hard for me to understand how some people seriously enjoy the combat in Fallout 3 for example.

 

[woo1108]

for me, past of the game doesn't matter. what matter for me is now.

it would, if you bought the game fresh from the shelves. And that is what I am talking about. We can not always hope for the community to fix shitty development. And neither should we.

Yes, we can't alway wait for patch.
but it has now. then problem solved.
complaining bug for blaiming nature of game market, developer(but actually it's not thier fault) and publisher can mean something.
they should be changed.
and if the game didn't fixed at all, it's worth to blame it.
because it's actually broken.
but blaming the game which is already fixed are not worthy I think.
because there is no problem for enjoying them.

The combat in thief is mediocre, but it doesnt "suck". That is the point.

Actually, combat itself is great but not satisfying because killing somebody will lead to game over.
and I can't match with robots;

It might be just my opinion, but I believe that we are not playing interactive movies, we are playing games, and with games gameplay is just as important like story telling and narrative. And combat is usually part of the gameplay.
You could argue, that a game with perfect story would have no reason to give you decent combat mechanics, but I dont think that it should work like that, not if you ask me, because at some point the bad mechanics will outweight the good ones, its most of the time like that, at least for me, its stupid ... but well. Hence why it is so hard for me to understand how some people seriously enjoy the combat in Fallout 3 for example.

I'm totallly agree with your opinion of game is not interactive move.
but what I want to say is, at games especially RPGs, combat is not only part of game.

maybe I'm too skeptical to combat but good combat doesn't bring good game.
I see too many games trying to make good combat but ignore other parts.
D:OS and Xulima are one of the dissapoinintg game in this year for me.
maybe they have good combat but that good combat caused linear quest.
what I want to play is RPG, adventure world, finding secret, change the world etc not just a combat simulator.

mediocre combat sound not good but many games worked well with that.
we don't need JA2's mechanism for Fallout, we don't need Arma's mechanism for Alpha Protocol or we don't need Mount and blade's mechanism for Morrowind.
while their combat is mediocre, they done thier rule properly and game itself is fun.

and sometimes, combat hinders me to enjoying game.
Wiz8 has one of the best combat mechanism among RPGs.
it's combat is fun and engaging but at later part of game, it's combat became annoying and stressful. not because it's hard but it takes too much time.
I want to find or do other things rather than combat.

I'm not talking about story. I really hate when cutscence blocks me to playing game.
what I want is adventure: finding clue, discover secret, solving serious situation and fulfill my own goal. there aren't actual story for Fallout but my own experience from the game.
sadly, there aren't many game that has good with adventure.

and personally, it's not broken mechanism weighing down good part of game but it's construction. poor combat mechanism of Gothic 1 and 2 didn't stop me to playing and enjoying them. but poor construction of forsaken god stop me to playing it;

I'm also agree that why people love fo3.
because not only the combat is broken, but also dungeon and quests are broken. and communities of fo3 are sucks.

 

[Crni Vuk]

but what I want to say is, at games especially RPGs, combat is not only part of game.

I never claimed it was the only part, but I would argue that it is a very important part, considering the nature of most games where combat is simply a big part of games and I always find the idea that RPGs dont need "good" combat, because they are "RPG"s wrong.

mediocre combat sound not good but many games worked well with that.
we don't need JA2's mechanism for Fallout, we don't need Arma's mechanism for Alpha Protocol or we don't need Mount and blade's mechanism for Morrowind.

Why? Why not? Why cant those games spend more time on delivering good combat mechanics? Also, Armas combat sucks. And yes I played the game. People think its a simulation and/or realistic, I played games focused on realism, their combat is only clunky, not a simulation or realistic and you have to be a masochist to enjoy the controlls.

Though, there are so many games out there that would do much better with good combat mechanics, like Fallout 3 for example.

 

[1fps-warlock]

Think about Thief series, their combat isn't that satisfying. but does that matter for enjoying Thief?

Thief was a huge disappointment for me. It's what you get when you let AC players design a thief game. What they consider a user friendly feature, I consider a failure, and this will not change. I will tell you how I uninstalled that game. First I was sneaking next to the wall in some kind of garden, trying to avoid the center. Then, a random scripted cutscene starts, and suddenly, I'm standing in plain sight, at the center of the garden. Why did this happen? Because the script intentionally sets the player position where the developer wants. It disregards player input, and brings him back to 'rails' whenever possible. If the designer of these 'rails' says thieves walk in the light and use the front door, player has no say. Player will then walk in the light and use the front door, or else the script will correct him. That game is a complete failure, and an insult to its predecessor. I apologize if this somehow derails the thread.

 

[woo1108]

Think about Thief series, their combat isn't that satisfying. but does that matter for enjoying Thief?

Thief was a huge disappointment for me. It's what you get when you let AC players design a thief game. What they consider a user friendly feature, I consider a failure, and this will not change. I will tell you how I uninstalled that game. First I was sneaking next to the wall in some kind of garden, trying to avoid the center. Then, a random scripted cutscene starts, and suddenly, I'm standing in plain sight, at the center of the garden. Why did this happen? Because the script intentionally sets the player position where the developer wants. It disregards player input, and brings him back to 'rails' whenever possible. If the designer of these 'rails' says thieves walk in the light and use the front door, player has no say. Player will then walk in the light and use the front door, or else the script will correct him. That game is a complete failure, and an insult to its predecessor. I apologize if this somehow derails the thread.

I'm not talking about Thief 2014

 

[1fps-warlock]

I'm not talking about Thief 2014

Your question suggests otherwise, because the previous ones had different names.
Only the latest one is called just 'Thief'...
I had played them, but I prefer TDM, because of configuration options and some other stuff.
TDS is also good, has texture mods and community patches, regardless of being a console port.
Either way, you don't get to control an armed group from above in any thief game, so the point about combat is moot.
If you had asked "does that matter for enjoying xcom" I would say yes it does matter, because you fight all the time in xcom.

 

[TorontoReign]

The combat in Wasteland 2 is fine. I didn't expect Jagged Alliance 3 out of it. Nor did I expect Van Buren, Xcom, or Fallout Tactics. I'm up to Hollywood now. The bugs have been fewer than when I first played Fallout 1 and 2. A lot could be done better of course.

*Making notes on maps would be nice.
*More character portraits.
*More random encounters.
*More enemy types.
*More weapons. I figured crowd assets would have enabled more than what we got. Also the M2 should not be a starting tier Heavy Weapon. It should be in California with 50 cal ammo.
*Armor isn't represented on the models? Even Power Armor? Plus the the selection of clothing is very poor if that is supposed to replace it. I know everyone claimed "More Story!" instead of graphics, but this shit feels bare bones in many ways. Luckily you can choose your own character portraits. Wish you could do that for the NPC's throughout the game too. Actually make the damn things match.
*I think a new DLC zone would be awesome, but this game has so many problems already that It is highly unlikely. No stealth has really bothered me. No prone hasn't been totally missed, but it is annoying.
*No alternate rounds for guns? You would figure at least on the shotguns you would do that. AP, HP, Coinshot....Sure some of that shit was in New Vegas, but it makes sense for the game. A game around combat needs more options like that.

If the budget was 10 million more we would have a totally different game. I feel that mods can fix a lot of Wasteland 2's issues if the modkit is flexible and easy enough to use. If it is harder to use than the GECK then that may cause problems for me. I have been bothered by a few bugs/inconsistencies. In an otherwise solid game, problems like typos, borked dialog, broken quests, and barebones combat make the game feel rushed or the budget wasn't enough to meet the vision. I just know when I beat it the ending slide is going to mess up like others have and that bugs me. More frequent updates would be nice and I still want my damn CE box. I'm about to start it up again right now. Working on getting through the southern barrier in California. My party turned out half ass. I missed the best companions it seems. Pistol Pete glitched and let when I dismissed him before I did some questionable acts.

Overall I'm hooked. I will continue to stay hooked if a mod scene can get behind the game. Hopefully some people who know proper grammar.

 

[Crni Vuk]

proper programming is more usefull though, you dont need perfect grammar to make a good game/mod. Look at all those Russian games based on Fallout for example >_>

In Soviet Russia grammar, corrects you!

 

[woo1108]

*Making notes on maps would be nice.
*More character portraits.
*More random encounters.
*More enemy types.
*More weapons. I figured crowd assets would have enabled more than what we got. Also the M2 should not be a starting tier Heavy Weapon. It should be in California with 50 cal ammo.

Totally agree with you.

*Armor isn't represented on the models? Even Power Armor? Plus the the selection of clothing is very poor if that is supposed to replace it. I know everyone claimed "More Story!" instead of graphics, but this shit feels bare bones in many ways. Luckily you can choose your own character portraits. Wish you could do that for the NPC's throughout the game too. Actually make the damn things match.

it seems like some armor represent on some NPCs: leather jerk->mobile infantry armor, Angel Oracle enforcers-> power armor.
and they shold add clothier in game.

* No stealth has really bothered me. No prone hasn't been totally missed, but it is annoying.
*No alternate rounds for guns? You would figure at least on the shotguns you would do that. AP, HP, Coinshot....Sure some of that shit was in New Vegas, but it makes sense for the game. A game around combat needs more options like that.

I can't agree with those.

there are some moments that requires stealth and they can be solved by avoiding enemy's sight, disarming alarm or finding other way.
and game itself designed without stealth skill and it works fine for me.

each weapon have it's own strength and you can use 7 character.
and weapons are already have armor penetration so I think there is no reaon to add alternative rounds.