What did Bethesda actually do better than Black Isle?

[Erny]

Good topic (and please dont kill it with flame) Hard to think of many not related to technology advances...

Nice intro/tutorial level - vault 101. Good start for noobs and not tedious/long (like many game tutorials are)

Repair skill on items - good implementation - however, not used much for quests and other stuff. Still a good system.

You can manufacture weapons from junk - good feature!

More emphasis on radiation - there was definitely not enough of it in fo2. (but still not enough, Id like radiation to be much more threatening, like in stalker)

Inventory is a bit easier to manage, with classes and item titles.

Hack and lockpick minigames - I actually like those. even if they are not RPG-ish by nature ok. Would it be better if it was just skill/PE/LC dependant and all you had to do is reaload if the roll fails?

Lots and lots of well made areas to explore, and not just random caves/sewers


questionable stuff
__

Perks each level? I like that (but the perks are not-so good)

Many items that give (+) to stats and skills... Im not sure if its good but I dont mind it


Making a mix of fps+turnbase(vats) system is a radical step in another direction, and not that well-made one even. You cant call that an improvement. (TBS combat in Fallouts had its problems, butmaking it into FPS is NOT improving, its like replacing old shoes with a new hat...)

Combining med and first aid was a nobrainer really, just removing the redundancy of already no-so necessary skills.

Combining throwing + traps into one 'explosives' skill is ok I guess, but not so logically clear (since there are many non-explosive traps as well) and Im not even sure that skill matter for anything other than the explosive dmg ;/ Maybe they should have called it 'traps&explosivse'

---
cant think of much else... its really staggering how many thing are made WORSE (not different, simply worse) while so little got improved

 

[Ausir]

Making a mix of fps+turnbase(vats) system is a radical step in another direction, and not that well-made one even.

VATS is not turn-based in any way.

 

[Roflcore]

Inventory is a bit easier to manage, with classes and item titles.

Say what?

 

[Prosper]

Making a mix of fps+turnbase(vats) system is a radical step in another direction, and not that well-made one even.

VATS is not turn-based in any way.

Enemies should be able to enter into VATS so both the player and the enemies can take TURNS.

An idea could be.. maybe the critters with a small amount of skill have can take the option to leave vats and do freefire, thus making rnb stilll purpose-able.

 

[aenemic]

Inventory is a bit easier to manage, with classes and item titles.

Say what?

inventory in itself is easier to manage. instead of scrolling through ALL your inventory to find a specific item, you only need to scroll through one type of item at a time.

the whole pipboy is a bit of a hassle though, having to click your way through it only to get to your stats screen or your map. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they had only added key bindings for bringing up inventory, stats, map and quests.


as for things I consider an improvement:

- condition on weapons and armor: this adds to the survivability factor and you always have to make sure your gear is in good condition. also makes looting gear useful for another reason than just to sell it.

- some skills are definitely more useful here than they were before: repair, explosives (both throwing and traps were pretty useless in FO1+2, here they've turned both into one pretty useful skill) and sneak mainly.

- as stated above, using grenades is actually a good idea in this game. not so much in the old games.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

- Giant Mutant Mudcrabs

- Giant Mutant Bears

- Orc Supermutants

- Half-Assed FPS mechanics

- VATs is an i-win button at close range, but a liability at mid-long ranged combat

- Radiant AI

- Crashes. Lots and lots of crashes

- Buggier than both fallout 1 and 2 combined

- Everything outside of megaton feels like an afterthought

- No real consequences for your actions

- Psychic NPCs

- Running on an engine that is not only ugly, but performs badly

- Subways feel like ayleid ruin copypasta

- Poorly implemented chem system

- Lifeless dialog with little variety (You're either a Paladin or a Baby Eater)

- Clumsy inventory

- Fast Travel

- Magical Radar

- godmode children

- Unkillable quest npcs

- The significance of SPECIAL is extremely watered down




+ Decently designed overworld

+ Centaurs, Brain Bots, Giant Ants, Radscorpions (wrong color, but acceptable), radroaches, molerats, and deathclaws all look good

+ Barring the fatman, mirv, and the weapons that require schematics (all of which are stupid as fuck); the rest are designed well and retain the fallout 'feel'

+ Some black humor remains intact

+ "random" encounters are still in place

+ There are a few genuinely likable NPCs



Could go on all day, but I'm freaking exhausted after trying to fix the crashes.

 

[Roflcore]

Inventory is a bit easier to manage, with classes and item titles.

Say what?

inventory in itself is easier to manage. instead of scrolling through ALL your inventory to find a specific item, you only need to scroll through one type of item at a time.

I beg to differ. In Fallout I used to have my stuff (normaly 5-6 items) at bottom of the list, and above that everything was loot to sell. Plus my NPCs which allowed me to store different kinds of stuff. I could access them really quickly. Oh and the old Inventory System used to have text and explaination. The new and "better" version has "Chinese Pistole: Dmg: 2 Dr: 15"

 

[DForge]

I haven't played the game yet but..

There is one thing I am happy about: That (from what I heard) Fallout 3 isn't over-crowded with stupid characters that are completely out of place and seem.. awkward at best. Like the giant mutated molerat from Gecko (was he called Brain? Pinky and the brain brain brain brain ugh that theme was sick. ). I mean, I know what he refers to and that it's a comic relief, but I don't really find it funny.. just awkward.

If F3 dropped the stupid tendency of putting too many "comic reliefs" to the game, I'd be happy. Some of them were funny, like the ear-eating masticator, but the rest.. err..

 

[Public]

i kinda like the condition of weapons and repair skill now....one up IMO

But as Fallout 3's combat is like FPS, condition makes it annoying and painfull. For Turn-based combat, and less action, this would be very nice thing.

Although, I think there was something like that in the previous Fallouts.

 

[johnthenerd]

I think handling money in the merchant screen is much better. I always hated having to scroll through hundreds of bucks just to make change. Automating it removes a hassle without "dumbing it down".

Combining skills that were unused or redundant streamlines the game considerably. I feel like every skill has a purpose, while before some of them felt like one hit wonders. Explosives isn't the best name for combining traps and throwing, but it's good enough that I'm not confused by it.

Doctor and First Aid should be the same skill. They basically had the same function in game, aside from doctor healing crippled wounds.

The combat isn't perfect. "VATs is an i-win button at close range, but a liability at mid-long ranged combat" is absolutely true. But it does address some of the problems of the first two. Ever start a fight in the Den and wonder why they had to let every crackhead around have a turn, slowly shuffling their feet? Ever wish you could just fast-forward through fighting rats and radscorpians once you have killer gear? Once they release an editor, the PC crowd will be able to tweak some of the problems with the VATs balance, and we'll see a better game come from it.

I know companies shouldn't expect the consumer to fix their problems, but at least Bethesda is more supportive of modding than Black Isle. If you've seen any of the mods that came out for Morrowind or Oblivion, you'll understand why I'm excited to see what the fan community will make for Fallout.

It feels like a much bigger game. Everywhere you look there are little spots that aren't on the main route. Oasis, Andale, those radio towers, and tons of stuff I don't even know about. It feels like a world, instead of some disjointed city maps.

The main quest mission Tranquility Lane is something that only Bethesda would do. If you don't like it, I really wonder about your taste in gaming.

Not to start a flame war, but I have to question some of these criticisms.

"Subways feel like ayleid ruin copypasta"

I don't know if you're ever seen a subway, but they are standardized. I'd think it was really odd if they all weren't pretty much the same.

"Radiant AI"

It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Frankly I admire companies that try to expand on the underlying technology of the game instead of only the graphics. You can rant and rave all you want about how "Bethe$da" is only interested in appealing to the lowest common denominator, but Radiant AI proves you wrong. Who really wants a static world where nothing unexpected ever happens?

Accusations of Bethesda's greed.

People, remember that Fallout 2 was the same game as Fallout 1. We all just got charged twice for what was basically an expansion pack. So before you accuse anybody of greed, remember that business is business, these people have bills to pay, and nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy anything.

One thing I don't like - Tagging skills doesn't feel as important. No more double skill points in them, just a 15 point bump.

 

[Sander]

inventory in itself is easier to manage. instead of scrolling through ALL your inventory to find a specific item, you only need to scroll through one type of item at a time.

Sadly, this doesn't actually carry over to store interfaces for some reason.

It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Frankly I admire companies that try to expand on the underlying technology of the game instead of only the graphics. You can rant and rave all you want about how "Bethe$da" is only interested in appealing to the lowest common denominator, but Radiant AI proves you wrong. Who really wants a static world where nothing unexpected ever happens?

Yes, obviously applying broken technology and then calling it innovative is a very good idea.
What?
Bethesda's Radiant AI was very far from innovative or new, by the way, and it's poorly made at that. Many games have done it much better, most notably Gothic.

I don't see why rolling first aid and doctor into the same skill was a bad idea, though. Basically, first aid was a dump stat, and Doctor was only useful to mend broken bones (and a few minor quests in Fallout 2).
What doesn't make sense, though, is that crippled body parts now get healed with a single stimpak.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Explosives isn't the best name for combining traps and throwing, but it's good enough that I'm not confused by it.

Really, you just saw the name of the skill and thought: Hah, this must include throwing too! It's obvious!

It feels like a much bigger game. Everywhere you look there are little spots that aren't on the main route. Oasis, Andale, those radio towers, and tons of stuff I don't even know about.

Too bad that from what I hear they're pretty much void of anything except phat lewt.

It feels like a world, instead of some disjointed city maps.

Of course, the cities in the original games would feel disjointed if you play games by staring blankly at the screen while pushing forward.

but Radiant AI proves you wrong. Who really wants a static world where nothing unexpected ever happens?

Yes, instead let's just have people staring at walls for hours or killing their pets and/or relatives because somehow they like you better. It's great really! And again, if you found the world in the original games to be static I'd recommend to play them again with your brain turned on.

Radiant AI... jeez. Give an esoteric name to a piece of shit and the masses will gobble it up. That's what Bethesda did. Doesn't matter that better systems working pretty much the same way have already been done.

People, remember that Fallout 2 was the same game as Fallout 1.

Different story, different places, more perks, more weapons, various improvements etc. don't seem to matter as long as it's not first-person, no? Sequel - do you understand the term?

I don't see why rolling first aid and doctor into the same skill was a bad idea, though.

Not necessarily a bad idea, and hey, maybe it fits better for the game if there is no use for two skills. Just saying it's a dumbing down... I don't think a good solution is to combine them. A good solution is to give uses to both. That is how you make a sequel, no? By improving on the concepts of the predecessor(s) not by removing them.

 

[Bloody William]

I can understand merging Med and Doctor, even accept sneak+steal, but throwing+traps makes so little sense. What if the trap is *gasp* not an explosive?

I do have to agree, good job on weapon and armor repair. Hacking and lockpicking are kind of fun too, I just wish they made the minigames harder instead of setting ridiculously high stat requirements.

...
And what's wrong with one skill merging Throwing and Traps, anyways.

Traps are laid on the ground, sometimes with carefully laid out triggers.

Throwing is throwing, not laying on the ground.

The only way to combine those is by making a trap trigger a catapult that launches grenades on the target.

Mines and grenads. Both cases, you're handling explosives. since there aren't any non-grenade throwing weapons (knives are all melee, even darts are ammo for a kitbashed weapon), it streamlines the system AND makes sense to have a general knowledge of explosives affect how well you use grenades and set/defuse mines and bombs. Frankly, not differentiating between rifles and pistols is less realistic, and that's been the case since the first Fallout.

Mending them, but not healing. That's why they're called nurses not doctors.

I'm not saying that the system in Fallout is perfect, but combining them in one skill because "they sound the same" is simply dumbing down. And yes, before someone starts screaming, I'm aware that Van Buren did something similar and I still don't agree.

It's not dumbing down, and this is exactly the sort of blind nostalgia I'm talking about. Doctor and First Aid were conceptually redundant and needlessly broke up one skill set into two. There is no reason for them to be two skills to begin with when the vast majority of application was treating yourself with stims/drugs/whatever was on hand. I don't favor combining every skill, but these two are far, far better as one.

Developed a combat system that maintained the strategy

Maybe I missed something... where's the strategy in VATS?

Picking your targets and shots. Not the most strategic combat there is, but when you're just one guy fighting in the wasteland, you make due. When was Fallout or Fallout 2 much more than prioritizing your targets and picking your shots to fit your AP?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Doctor and First Aid were conceptually redundant and needlessly broke up one skill set into two. There is no reason for them to be two skills to begin with when the vast majority of application was treating yourself with stims/drugs/whatever was on hand.

There was no breaking down. They were two skills from the start. As I said, combining them is the worst of the two possibilities, the other one being to give them actual uses.
I'm aware they didn't have much use in the original games, but many and interesting uses could have been made for them.
So, no, as much as you want to defend this, it's still dumbing down.

It's quite simple really: Not used enough, give more uses, don't remove.

What's next then? I'm sure Fallout 3 has useless skills too even with all the combining, no? Then for Fallout 4 let's remove those too, what the hell, they've got no use anyway.

That's just stupid and we will end with just my patented AWESOMENESS! (tm) skill by Fallout 5 or so.

 

[Sander]

The complaint about combining First Aid and Doctor that they could've made more uses is ridiculous.
Sure, they *could* have created more options in the game. But this leads to a system that is much harder to balance, and with skills that are seemingly very similar (and they are very similar, make no mistake about that). The easier and arguably better option is to combine the skills.

Look, SPECIAL wasn't some brilliantly balanced system. It had actual balance issues as well. One of them was the uselessness of some skills.

The problem with Medicine in Fallout 3 is that they didn't actually combine the two. All uses of doctor (notably fixing broken limbs) are actually gone from the new game.

The slippery slope argument is just silly, in any case.

 

[johnthenerd]

Really, you just saw the name of the skill and thought: Hah, this must include throwing too! It's obvious!

Grenades explode, so yeah, it actually is obvious.

Too bad that from what I hear they're pretty much void of anything except phat lewt.

When you actually play the game, feel free to talk about it. For the record, you're wrong.

Of course, the cities in the original games would feel disjointed if you play games by staring blankly at the screen while pushing forward.

No. They feel disjointed because the wasteland consisted of either empty spaces, empty spaces next to caves, or ruined cities. All of which were identical.

Yes, instead let's just have people staring at walls for hours or killing their pets and/or relatives because somehow they like you better. It's great really! And again, if you found the world in the original games to be static I'd recommend to play them again with your brain turned on.

I haven't seen any of that in this, or in Oblivion. But that's the thing, your experience is going to be different from my experience. I've talked to three of my buddies about Fallout 3 and none of us have had even remotely similar experiences.

Different story, different places, more perks, more weapons, various improvements etc. don't seem to matter as long as it's not first-person, no? Sequel - do you understand the term?

A sequel would correct some of the more glaring problems, like the money situation I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, Black Isle saw no point in changing the engine, and instead released what amounted to an expansion pack.

Expansion packs usually have a new story, new places, new abilities, new weapons. They also usually don't charge full price.

Not necessarily a bad idea, and hey, maybe it fits better for the game if there is no use for two skills. Just saying it's a dumbing down... I don't think a good solution is to combine them. A good solution is to give uses to both. That is how you make a sequel, no? By improving on the concepts of the predecessor(s) not by removing them.

If there were different uses for them that would be fine. But both are essentially healing skills.

Don't confuse streamlining with dumbing down. You come across like a guy who says that Steven King writes better than George Orwell because his books are thicker. Cutting away useless parts of a system and incorporating new better things is what a sequel does. Keeping all the old crap and just tossing in a few new ideas is what an expansion pack does.

 

[Sander]

When you actually play the game, feel free to talk about it. For the record, you're wrong.

Er, not really. I mean, the fun of this game is in the exploring, but you don't really find much beyond loot in exploration. There are maybe 2 or 3 quest areas you have to stumble across (actually, only the Oasis comes to mind), and there are a couple of places that are interesting to explore (most notably the Vaults and Fort Constantine).

But they're not actually filled with much interesting beyond loot.

No. They feel disjointed because the wasteland consisted of either empty spaces, empty spaces next to caves, or ruined cities. All of which were identical.

There you go. That's one of the things that's wrong with Fallout 3: there's no empty wasteland feel, something that Fallout managed to do very well.
Instead, Fallout 3 has a wasteland packed fully with (hostile) creatures and random locations. While this works well for their form of gameplay, it doesn't work for a Fallout feeling.

A sequel would correct some of the more glaring problems, like the money situation I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, Black Isle saw no point in changing the engine, and instead released what amounted to an expansion pack.

Expansion packs usually have a new story, new places, new abilities, new weapons. They also usually don't charge full price.

Actually, much of the AI was changed for Fallout 2.
Calling it an expansion pack just because it has the same engine isn't fair either. What, you play games just so you can play a new engine?

But hey, it isn't exactly relevant what Black Isle's motives behind publishing Fallout 2 were (and with the haste and bugginess, profit is obviously a big motive), it's about the end result.

 

[Ravager69]

So, Fallout 3 uses Oblivion's engine - that means it's an Oblivion expansion set in future?

As for the topic - what did they make better? I agree that VATS may be useful when it comes to skipping easy fights, but one thing bothers me - why do I make much more damage at point blank shot range with VATS than without it?

Making weapons\armors breake down. Uh....that's it, I guess. Rest is crap.

 

[Nodder]

Really, you just saw the name of the skill and thought: Hah, this must include throwing too! It's obvious!

Explosives includes grenades, and someone good at throwing grenades would naturally be good at throwing other things, no? And you accuse people favoring the new system of being slow on the draw.

Not necessarily a bad idea, and hey, maybe it fits better for the game if there is no use for two skills. Just saying it's a dumbing down... I don't think a good solution is to combine them. A good solution is to give uses to both. That is how you make a sequel, no? By improving on the concepts of the predecessor(s) not by removing them.

Where do you draw the line between dumbing down and simplification? Should every overt vestige of the past be preserved in the name of some sort of elitist pretense of opposing mythical "contards"?

That's just stupid and we will end with just my patented AWESOMENESS! (tm) skill by Fallout 5 or so.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Awesomeness has too many words, even more than SPECIAL. Your one-size-fits-all skill can only work if it was named something short enough, like YES or YA.

 

[FeelTheRads]

and someone good at throwing grenades would naturally be good at throwing other things, no?

Even knives? I don't think so.
Note: I don't know if there are throwing knives in Fallout 3.
Also, throwing grenades doesn't really require a perfect aim because of the blast, while throwing let's say rocks does.
Although, if all Fallout 3 has is mines as traps and grenades for throwing I guess one skill is enough, I'll give you that.