Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Apparently basic characterization and consistency with the themes and setting of the story is Nitpicking. Okay then.
What GOTY tells us, and how it might affect Fallout.
- Thread starter MutatedPanda
- Start date
This ghoul has seen it all
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
If a product fails in these aspects no it is not nitpicky. However Bioware 2 does not fail in these. There is critism which reasonable like how Bioware 2 takes the safe routes with cases like racism or class revolution. However arguments like "why she doesn't like racism? It's 1900!" is as one dimensional as a critism can get. Yes everyone was racist back then and every racist is the same, right, sure whatever.
Bioshock 2's gameplay utterly contradicts with it's story telling, it's where the games fails horribly other than that it doesn't have a real problem with it's story.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
You don't even understand what my point is, my point is not "she should like racism!" my point is that her upbringing/life situation and her characterization just completely clash with each other nonsensically, she has been in a tower with no social interaction, getting experimented on, being terrorized by a mechanical monstruosity, probably only fed propaganda all her life yet she is bubbly, sociable and is baffled by the existence of a "Blacks only" bathroom. She doesn't have social anxiety, doesn't seem uncomfortable with all the sudden sensory overload one would logically have, doesn't even over indulge in things nor questions almost anything, she makes no sense.
She was made this way to easily manipulate people by appealing to the idea of protecting a naive, bubbly girl who thinks you are awesome, she is just an artifact to cover the flimsy narrative.
She was made this way to easily manipulate people by appealing to the idea of protecting a naive, bubbly girl who thinks you are awesome, she is just an artifact to cover the flimsy narrative.
About every part of that is untrue. People have already hammered home how stupid the plot is. So I'll focus on the shooty bits.
Enemies become bullet sponges as you progress. There's no sense of pacing or good use of quiet slow moments to break up the pace. And the mechanics of how enemies spawn in waves is just poorly designed. You're attacked from every angle in waves so that positioning and cover never really matter. This is why the energy shield was shoe-horned into the game at the last minute. Weapons and powers are largely boring and interchangeable. Upgrading them doesn't feel impactful. It's something you do because you don't want it to take longer to kill bullet sponges than needed.
Oh and good god the environmental design. So bad. Parts of the game are such a jangling clash of color and detail that the overall effect is to just benumb and overstimulate your senses.
Half Life 2 and Dead Space 2 does a lot of these things much better.
Dead Space 2 is a textbook example in adjusting mob difficulty right.
DS2, in particular, adjusts difficulty setting by making enemies hit harder, not by making them tougher. You are allowed to make fewer mistakes before being killed but when you do things right, such as position correctly or hit the correct body parts, then your actions are decisive and meaningful. Where you were dying, you are now dropping enemies before they get to you and funneling them through chokes. It's okay to make enemies tougher, but this has to be used judiciously because making them too tough allows them to break rules of logic of "Hey, I fucking shot that guy in the face!"
Enemies burst out of visibly recognizable vents. And you can rely on positioning in and around obstacles and corridors to your advantage. They don't just magically spawn in behind you after you've dispatched the wave in front. And while vents are positioned in such a way as to try and surround you in each room, there's at least a consistent in-world logic for how all this works. Enemies in Half Life 2 are just there and are gone if you kill them. They occasionally get scripted in by dropping off VTOL's or you're told they attack your position after you flip a switch, but again, there's a kind of logic to how they're allowed to reinforce themselves.
There are tougher black-skinned variants of enemies in DS2, but these are visibly recognizable to the player and used judiciously. Stock weapons still dispatch them while upgrades make a noticeable difference to how often you need to reload or how often you're allowed to miss. The high caliber weapons actually do what they're supposed to and one-shot them or knock them off balance. And there are quiet interspersed atmospheric sections and puzzle sections to break up the monotony of firefights.
DS3 proceeds to shit on this delicate game balance. But oh well.
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Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
First if you're not a shrink, stop. Second you're making up things: in first part of her life she wasn't tortured and she wasn't terrorized by the songbird, hell! she even saved it once and for that the songbird was deeply loyal and protective of her. She spent her life in a luxury tower, reading art, making dresses(yeah ultimate Disney Princess no argument here) experimenting on her powers(yeah Frozen i know), i'm pretty sure she didn't read politics and you're only guessing that she read a lot of proganda. 1900's people don't teach politics or whatever to women(they're suppose to make dresses, cook food and be a cultured lady), so yours is a guess without any support.
Torture and such happens after the part she got caught, like at the very ending of the game... Did you even played Bioshock Infinite?
Torture and such happens after the part she got caught, like at the very ending of the game... Did you even played Bioshock Infinite?
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Maybe that part is logically consistent, but what I do remember her feeling very like she was there to pander to my feelings.
Believe it or not, I don't start feeling things for this girl because I just see her dancing and singing or because I'm informed that she's my character's daughter. There's just too much stupid getting in the way of that.
I remember her getting mad at Booker when she learns that he's basically Han Solo mercenary. He only does this because it's a job. But then she just forgives him for no reason after the obligatory shooty sequence after. So why do they have a rapport? We're told she hates him and has no reason to like him and are given no resolution. And it's shortly after this that they find one of those air cabs and could just leave the city, so why don't they.
And this is further diluted by these other plot elements like time travel. If I can completely render the consequences of a timeline irrelevant by ditching the shitty timeline for one I prefer, why should I be invested in what happens in this crappy city at all? Why would killing some sort of collapsed uber-Booker at the end solve anything? Wouldn't that just kill off every version of Booker that wasn't evil and every timeline where Elizabeth is presumably happy with her life? So not only is it an obvious deus ex machina, it's one that doesn't even fucking solve any problems.
So the motivations don't only not make any sense, it's also completely overshadowed by this Depak Chopra garbage.
Believe it or not, I don't start feeling things for this girl because I just see her dancing and singing or because I'm informed that she's my character's daughter. There's just too much stupid getting in the way of that.
I remember her getting mad at Booker when she learns that he's basically Han Solo mercenary. He only does this because it's a job. But then she just forgives him for no reason after the obligatory shooty sequence after. So why do they have a rapport? We're told she hates him and has no reason to like him and are given no resolution. And it's shortly after this that they find one of those air cabs and could just leave the city, so why don't they.
And this is further diluted by these other plot elements like time travel. If I can completely render the consequences of a timeline irrelevant by ditching the shitty timeline for one I prefer, why should I be invested in what happens in this crappy city at all? Why would killing some sort of collapsed uber-Booker at the end solve anything? Wouldn't that just kill off every version of Booker that wasn't evil and every timeline where Elizabeth is presumably happy with her life? So not only is it an obvious deus ex machina, it's one that doesn't even fucking solve any problems.
So the motivations don't only not make any sense, it's also completely overshadowed by this Depak Chopra garbage.
mrchaos
Super Orc
Yeah figthing her 3 times was a mistake. A challeging boss battle at first but after dealing with her became a shore.
Can´t really complain about the plasmids, I haven´t play the first two bioshock´s yet but some of the plasmids were really great. Shock power with the stunning upgrade plus shotgun to the face was OP.
Really? I never had problems killing mooks in combat. Maybe because I bought the upgrades you mention were useless. The only bullet sponges I can think of are the handyman.
Weird thing about bioshock infinite that I notice is that they got rid of the save/load game function from the previous games and went with auto-save feature.
What the hell? Why?
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Why would Comstock let her read literature ans see art that would contradict him anyway? Isn't he Grooming her to be his successor? is Comstock seriously this fucking stupid on top of being one dimensional? He is not even consistent with himself, hell once he recovers him he apparently proceeds to torture her to SOMEHOW turn her loyal to him rather fast (CUZ IBOL!!!!).... Elizabeth also outright hates and fears Songbird on the base game, even reacting with horror when it appears on a window later on. They kept her in isolated rooms, collecting things like her period blood, constantly observing her and refusing her any social interaction, torture is not just hot iron and whips....
Yet she for some reason is perfectly socially adapted, is bubbly and cheerful, Do you actually think any of that is even consistent characterization? Solitary confinement has been proven to have acitvely negative effects on people both mentally and phisicaly, and that is just on grown people, just imagine what it would do to a developing kid...
She is horrified at Booker's killings ONCE then she just becomes ok with it to the point that in the DLC she even says that Booker was her best friend and that she misses him.
Also the ending, as DVL pointed out, is only an ending because the game stops there, the explanation is a text book example of a Deus Ex Machina, it doesn't address any of the themes of racism, civil conflict and religion it has been riding on for shock value, none of it has any pay off and logically by the mere premise of "infinite universes" it obviously wouldn't even work (and it doesn't because the DLC shows that there are still a bunch of Comstocks in other universes). Also the story seems to be a Pro "suicide as a solution" story.
Yet she for some reason is perfectly socially adapted, is bubbly and cheerful, Do you actually think any of that is even consistent characterization? Solitary confinement has been proven to have acitvely negative effects on people both mentally and phisicaly, and that is just on grown people, just imagine what it would do to a developing kid...
She is horrified at Booker's killings ONCE then she just becomes ok with it to the point that in the DLC she even says that Booker was her best friend and that she misses him.
Also the ending, as DVL pointed out, is only an ending because the game stops there, the explanation is a text book example of a Deus Ex Machina, it doesn't address any of the themes of racism, civil conflict and religion it has been riding on for shock value, none of it has any pay off and logically by the mere premise of "infinite universes" it obviously wouldn't even work (and it doesn't because the DLC shows that there are still a bunch of Comstocks in other universes). Also the story seems to be a Pro "suicide as a solution" story.
Irwin John Finster
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Meh. I liked Bioshock Infinite, but I think that development studio's shtick of making System Shock 2 clones has run its course. They might put out another one and have it end up a disappointment like Fallout 4.
However, I have hope that they can continue making great stories and games. Perhaps even the fabled System Shock 3 one day. Perhaps they will even make a game with more of the features of System Shock 2 rather than less of them.
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
Isolation is not ipso facto torture either. She starts to resent songbird because she starts see it as her jailor as she reaches puperty. A lot of girl see their parents like at certain age if they're rather strick. She's not aware of the obvervation and period blood or whatever.
She's in constant awe but it's not like she's utterly ignorant. She reads and relatively aware of the world. Majority of people don't stop functioning even after a long period of isolation. She has seen people it's not F-Type prison and it's not like: "Oh my god, for the first time i saw an another human being, i thought i was the only one!!!!" I saw children born and growed up in prison, bubbly and cheerful and i'm not bullsh*ting you. Such is part of my job. To be fair majority of them are more or less messed up yet their conditions are so much worse than Elizabeth's.
For the 1000th times game suffers because of the long fighting scenes that out of place and soulless murderfests. I'm really tired of repating this. She also doesn't becomes ok with it in an instant and without meaningful dialog, seriously did you played the game?
Because the main theme of the game is determinism and naturally epilogue is all about that. If you missed that than it's your problem and not the games. "Pro suicide as solution"... what, whe.. where am i? In a Bibble class? Seriously that's what you didn't like? Then f**k Anna Karenina too for being so pro suicide as solution as well.
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Except she actually is "Oh my god another human being!" when she sees Booker, she hasn't interacted with anyone, also how could you not become aware that they are collecting your period blood?
19 years of isolation is more than most people spend in solitary confinement, and again those people are usually adults, not kids in development, hell Elizabeth's very ability to speak would be directly and negatively influenced by never talking to anyone, this shit has been documented on real life people, you are just making excuses for it.
Meaningful dialogue? She becomes okay with it pretty much immediately, she runs off and then by the next wave of mindless enemies she is okay with it and even summoning machineguns and passing ammo to Booker.
The main theme of the game is determinism? Detemrinism is about the shittiest philosophy also the story repeatedly alters history, hell you are literary pulled into the future to be given a mcguffin to change the past and prevent the future from happening, so if it was about determinism then Booker shouldn't even be able to change the past like he does... specially on the retarded ending.
The story literary makes it so that the only way to supposedly solve the plot is for booker to allow himself to be drowned and he accepts it without much fight, the story shuts down any other solution to a problem that Booker shouldn't even care about "But there will be infinite Comstocks in other universes!!!".
"You disagree and point out flaws? Did yo ueven play it!!!!" What are you a Bethesda forum user?
19 years of isolation is more than most people spend in solitary confinement, and again those people are usually adults, not kids in development, hell Elizabeth's very ability to speak would be directly and negatively influenced by never talking to anyone, this shit has been documented on real life people, you are just making excuses for it.
Meaningful dialogue? She becomes okay with it pretty much immediately, she runs off and then by the next wave of mindless enemies she is okay with it and even summoning machineguns and passing ammo to Booker.
The main theme of the game is determinism? Detemrinism is about the shittiest philosophy also the story repeatedly alters history, hell you are literary pulled into the future to be given a mcguffin to change the past and prevent the future from happening, so if it was about determinism then Booker shouldn't even be able to change the past like he does... specially on the retarded ending.
The story literary makes it so that the only way to supposedly solve the plot is for booker to allow himself to be drowned and he accepts it without much fight, the story shuts down any other solution to a problem that Booker shouldn't even care about "But there will be infinite Comstocks in other universes!!!".
"You disagree and point out flaws? Did yo ueven play it!!!!" What are you a Bethesda forum user?
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
You don't point out actual and very severe flaws that Bioshock certainly has. You completly ignore compromises that are needed to be done to write a solid story flow and trying to tear it down with hard scientific facts(facts that i'm pretty sure you don't know much about). What's this obsession of yours with period blood? She throws hers into garbage and they collect it from there. Here, done, she none the wiser. Is it realy that hard to comprehend? It's not like they need syringes or vacuum cleaners to collect her period blood...
You have many facts utterly wrong like the torture. Her life is more close to "Kafes" system that Ottomans had than a lets say a life in F type prison and her tower is much better and safer(and while it's a fact that kafes sytem more or less messed up sultans also there were many and more healty ones too). "I haves my facts wrong yet feel like acting all hipster and shit" what is this RPG Codex user?(you probably are)
She is able to open tears so she experinces and/or observes the world(she's has probably wider and richer life experinces than many 19 years olds). Though i don't know the exact age she was put into the island it happened after she began demostrating tears but my guess is not when she was still a baby. Is this a healty way to grow up? No of course not. However such life would not turn anyone into a dysfunctioning person, it. would. simply. not.
You don't even have slightess idea what determinism is. Look you're free not to agree with any political or philosophical position. There is a good number of scientists who believe in determinism when it comes to humans and free-will. Just because they think so doesn't means they're right about it. However before calling determism or any political or philosophical position as "the shittiest philosophy" you're suppose to read and think about it beforehand. Your knowledge is next to nothing when comes determinism so Bioshock Infinity didn't mean much to you. Just like because you're not a parent or didn't lost a parent(if you did i'm sorry telling i'm coming up with this for sake of argument) this father and daughter trope didn't mean anything to you. Both are totaly okay of course. However if you think the ending contradicts with determinism then you're simply wrong and didn't get it. It's okay, just let it go.
For the 1001th time Bioshock suffers from soulless murderfests utterly contradicts with it's storytelling, i'm aware of that. However if you think her reactions are during story sections are bad, out of place or badly written then you're simply wrong about it too.
You have many facts utterly wrong like the torture. Her life is more close to "Kafes" system that Ottomans had than a lets say a life in F type prison and her tower is much better and safer(and while it's a fact that kafes sytem more or less messed up sultans also there were many and more healty ones too). "I haves my facts wrong yet feel like acting all hipster and shit" what is this RPG Codex user?(you probably are)
She is able to open tears so she experinces and/or observes the world(she's has probably wider and richer life experinces than many 19 years olds). Though i don't know the exact age she was put into the island it happened after she began demostrating tears but my guess is not when she was still a baby. Is this a healty way to grow up? No of course not. However such life would not turn anyone into a dysfunctioning person, it. would. simply. not.
You don't even have slightess idea what determinism is. Look you're free not to agree with any political or philosophical position. There is a good number of scientists who believe in determinism when it comes to humans and free-will. Just because they think so doesn't means they're right about it. However before calling determism or any political or philosophical position as "the shittiest philosophy" you're suppose to read and think about it beforehand. Your knowledge is next to nothing when comes determinism so Bioshock Infinity didn't mean much to you. Just like because you're not a parent or didn't lost a parent(if you did i'm sorry telling i'm coming up with this for sake of argument) this father and daughter trope didn't mean anything to you. Both are totaly okay of course. However if you think the ending contradicts with determinism then you're simply wrong and didn't get it. It's okay, just let it go.
For the 1001th time Bioshock suffers from soulless murderfests utterly contradicts with it's storytelling, i'm aware of that. However if you think her reactions are during story sections are bad, out of place or badly written then you're simply wrong about it too.
ZigzagPX4
The Swiftness of the Ranger
Well, simply put, Fallout 2 levels of narrative consistency is regarded as nitpicking, and Bioshock: Infinite regarded as an intelligent and thought-provoking game, is because the modern standard for storytelling has been levelled-down to allow for more focus on gameplay and graphics.
I find it unrealistic to be looking for storytelling levels, found in other entertainment, in modern gaming. It's very hard to find. Remember how Fallout 4 is still considered lined with deep philosophy into the themes of loss, and Witcher 3 considered the most complex RPG ever?
If you are to compare every game in this generation with plot from engaging novels and classic cRPGs, then you're going to find everything absolutely disappointing in terms of characterisation, simply because there are different standards and focuses. It's not necessarily bad that the focus is different for each generation, so yes, I find it justified to be saying that the standards here for writing stories in a video game are far too high.
I find it unrealistic to be looking for storytelling levels, found in other entertainment, in modern gaming. It's very hard to find. Remember how Fallout 4 is still considered lined with deep philosophy into the themes of loss, and Witcher 3 considered the most complex RPG ever?
If you are to compare every game in this generation with plot from engaging novels and classic cRPGs, then you're going to find everything absolutely disappointing in terms of characterisation, simply because there are different standards and focuses. It's not necessarily bad that the focus is different for each generation, so yes, I find it justified to be saying that the standards here for writing stories in a video game are far too high.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
You are using the word hipster as a counter argument, I think I rest my case there.
You keep making excuses for every thing it has, I already pointed out how the story itself is badly written, how the characterization is just terrible (specially the villains whose behavior is pretty inconsistent). Life devoid of social interaction, experiments, being terrorized by a mechanical monstrosity would not turn someone dysfunctional? everything in the real world points to yes it would. At the very least she would have problems handling huge groups of people, talking and even knowing what is appropiate to do, she wouldn't be a Disney Princess throwing snarky lines. The Tears wouldn't have allowed her to have any personal experiencs because the McGuffin statue suppoesdly prevents her from getting out of Columbia. If they wanted to make her all bubbly and cheerful they could've easily just ditched the whole "isolated from a young age" plot point and instead maker her into a spoiled princess of Columbia, but then again I guess that wouldn't have made Comstock "IBOL!" enough.
Determinism: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
That sounds like the shittiest phiklosophy of them all.
Also "sacrifices for a good narrative flow"? The story has terrible narrative flow, they keep jumping on shit that takes them to random places and then they just start walking into firefights, stumbling in the dark until the plot falls on them again, at one point Booker is even randomly pulled into the future to be given a McGuffin and then dropped into the closer future just so you can hear how the IBOL Comstock is torturing Elizabeth to somehow make her loyal and on another part of the story they kep jumping tears so an issue solves itself but then they just stay on the new timeline not bothering to think for a second that if the issue solved itself then that means they have no deal with anyone to solve the issue at all, hell the Comstock at the end is not even the same Comstock you fought on the base timeline so there is very little pay off or dramatic weight, it's just random violence. The story is also very poorly paced. I actually have had experience raising a kid from very young age (not my son, but my Nephew) so you are also standing on basically nothing to imply that it's because of some flaw of me that I didn't connect to this story. A story that isn't even a Father Daugther story until the last minute Shyamalama Plot twist.
I am not even comparing this game to grandiose works of literature, I am just asking for decent writting, and Infinite lacks it.
You keep making excuses for every thing it has, I already pointed out how the story itself is badly written, how the characterization is just terrible (specially the villains whose behavior is pretty inconsistent). Life devoid of social interaction, experiments, being terrorized by a mechanical monstrosity would not turn someone dysfunctional? everything in the real world points to yes it would. At the very least she would have problems handling huge groups of people, talking and even knowing what is appropiate to do, she wouldn't be a Disney Princess throwing snarky lines. The Tears wouldn't have allowed her to have any personal experiencs because the McGuffin statue suppoesdly prevents her from getting out of Columbia. If they wanted to make her all bubbly and cheerful they could've easily just ditched the whole "isolated from a young age" plot point and instead maker her into a spoiled princess of Columbia, but then again I guess that wouldn't have made Comstock "IBOL!" enough.
Determinism: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
That sounds like the shittiest phiklosophy of them all.
Also "sacrifices for a good narrative flow"? The story has terrible narrative flow, they keep jumping on shit that takes them to random places and then they just start walking into firefights, stumbling in the dark until the plot falls on them again, at one point Booker is even randomly pulled into the future to be given a McGuffin and then dropped into the closer future just so you can hear how the IBOL Comstock is torturing Elizabeth to somehow make her loyal and on another part of the story they kep jumping tears so an issue solves itself but then they just stay on the new timeline not bothering to think for a second that if the issue solved itself then that means they have no deal with anyone to solve the issue at all, hell the Comstock at the end is not even the same Comstock you fought on the base timeline so there is very little pay off or dramatic weight, it's just random violence. The story is also very poorly paced. I actually have had experience raising a kid from very young age (not my son, but my Nephew) so you are also standing on basically nothing to imply that it's because of some flaw of me that I didn't connect to this story. A story that isn't even a Father Daugther story until the last minute Shyamalama Plot twist.
I am not even comparing this game to grandiose works of literature, I am just asking for decent writting, and Infinite lacks it.
mrchaos
Super Orc
A lot of things about Comstock don´t make sense considering his AU Dewitt that went along with his baptism. Why the f*ck did he became a white supermacist if the reason he did the baptism was because he felt remorse about killing native americans in ´´battle`` of wounded knee?
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Because the story was written for edgy teenagers.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
It was a story written for Tumblr that's why. I also loved the recton BS that they did with Daisy Fitzroy in the Burial At Sea DLC. That left me at a loss for words with how stupid and pandering it was.
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I'm going to take a moment to argue that.
For one there are a lot of events that are ultimately external to the human will. And the human will is itself dependent on other antecedents (i.e. the health and functioning your neurons, whether you were brought up inside a tower and who your father was). I don't think this can be disputed.
And here's the key, some philosophers hold that the lack of free will means the lack of moral responsibility. It's a false premise with a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premise.
Let me clarify: Free will is inarticulate. It really doesn't communicate anything as a concept. Freedom is a social-societal condition, not a metaphysical one. "Will" just means "I make decisions somehow."
So "free will" is some deliciously redundant phrasing when you're nattering about metaphysics. (As opposed to legal uses of the term like, "I entered into the contract of my own free will.")
Responsibility, like freedom, is a societal construct. Ultimately, you can hold other responsible to their actions and punish/reward them accordingly. And we can put rational limits on freedom, because if we don't it becomes indistinguishable from omnipotence. (I can do what I want, whenever I want, for the exact results that I want, with no regard to my physical limitations.)
But whatever, Bioshock Infinite really isn't a meaningful discussion of any of those things either.
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