What had transpired...

[Silencer]

At the RPGCodex forum, Leonard Boyarsky, lead artist for Fallout, posted the story of what went through with Troika and the Fallout license bid in this epical topic. <blockquote>We never, ever bid on Fallout. One major publisher mentioned Interplay was shopping it around and would be interested in us developing it for them, but theydropped it as too expensive when they found out the asking price (not ours, Interplay's). We never had our own money, and were just beginning to toy with the idea of independent funding near the end of our life as a business - which was after Beth had already gotten Fallout.

I did approach Bethesda about us working with them on Fallout, but they were uninterested. Instead of flaiming them for this however, think about it from their point of view: who among us would want to pay a huge amount of money for a license and then turn it over to someone else? I'm assuming they paid the $$ because they wanted to make a Fallout game, end of story.

Our post apocalyptic game was going to be something new, simply because we loved the genre. We struggled with whether to make it post apoc or not, since Beth already had Fallout, but our love for the genre outweighed other considerations.

I'm not going to go anywhere near the argument of who is responsible for Fallout's greatness, except to say that Scott Campbell never gets the credit he deserves in all these arguments. He wrote alot of the original story and came up with alot of the characters and places as well.</blockquote>
Also, there's a new site, www.leonardboyarsky.com, where one might find his works.

Links: Leonard Boyarsky's post at RPGCodex fora, Leonard Boyarsky's site

Thanks alec and Briosafreak!

 

[Briosafreak]

Somehow this topic at the Codex is turning into a fight on Fallout's soul, pretty interesting stuff, a must read (all of the 13 pages )

 

[Ausir]

Leon already killed the flamewar, unfortunately...

 

[Brother None]

Funny how all our Fallout "in the know"-guys claimed the opposite of what Leon just said.

Sheesh, guys, what are we, rumour-farmers?

Also, it'd be nice if we stop blaming Bethesda for killing Troika now. Some people even owe them an apology.

 

[SimpleMinded]

Is there a Scott Campbell developer interview here? I hadn't heard much about him previously (as brought up in the quote).

And I hope that's a sign that Bethesda hopes to make Fallout a labor of love.

Also, does Boyarsky's stuff on his site imply that he's unemployed? Mmmm how can someone with a resume like that NOT get hired.

 

[frissy]

"how can someone with a resume like that NOT get hired."

Who knew that BIS would fall with it?s resume...

In working life (gaming) people usually don?t search for talents when they have them. If they have a opening, they will "find" the "best" person to occupy it, but they rarely take the gurus when they become available.

Plus "gurus" usually come with egos to match. They mostly solve this ego thing by creating their own ompany and working as CO?s
________
YAMAHA AN1X HISTORY

 

[Ashmo]

COs? They're militant too?

Anyway.

Yeah, that's why you let them suffer and wait until their egos have shrinked back to subhuman proportions before you hire them.

 

[frissy]

In my experience every single nerd-guru thinks they could have won every single war that has been lost.

"I PLAYED C&C!!! DON?T TELL ME I DON?T KNOW!!"
________
Zx14 Vs Hayabusa

 

[Briosafreak]

Funny how all our Fallout "in the know"-guys claimed the opposite of what Leon just said.

Sheesh, guys, what are we, rumour-farmers?

Also, it'd be nice if we stop blaming Bethesda for killing Troika now. Some people even owe them an apology.

Change Troika to "a publisher" on my post, on the negociations part, and everything stands. Some of the Toika guys were more hopefull than others though, some were more keen to get back to a familiar world, others were more excited with the new world.

Hmmm on a second reading Saint and Dhruin don`t exactly have anything really wrong on their posts, and Leon confirms that Troika never talked about foul play from Bethesda, like i said, so why did he said the opposite of what most of us said?

He confirms that they talked about working on Fallout to Bethesda, a thing we didn`t posted for lack of confirmation here at NMA, btw.

 

[Roshambo]

Hmmm on a second reading Saint and Dhruin don`t exactly have anything really wrong on their posts, and Leon confirms that Troika never talked about foul play from Bethesda, like i said, so why did he said the opposite of what most of us said?

And I raised the point that if Bethesda was looking to acquire the license over those who had worked on it previously, they should have shown some courtesy as per authoring.

Also, thanks for Leon for telling us what Bethesda couldn't be bothered to say without a crass amount of obfuscation and remarks about Troika's financial situation.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject:
Funny how all our Fallout "in the know"-guys claimed the opposite of what Leon just said.

Sheesh, guys, what are we, rumour-farmers?

Also, it'd be nice if we stop blaming Bethesda for killing Troika now. Some people even owe them an apology.

No, I believe it was Bethesda jackals that coined up the "bidding war" and "conspiracy"- right in front of the core Fallout fan audience, so we decided to bring up the issude about them having lacking courtesy or common respect in this industry, which they then made cheap pot-shots at Troika's financial situation. Fucking brilliant on their part.

So fuck both of the Bethesda twats in that thread. I still don't care for their integrity, or the lack thereof, and their clueless spin. They will get an apology when or if ever they deserve one. For whatever, because there's nothing to apologize for here.

That explains why Beth didn´t knew about Troika beeing in the process, wich is nice to know.

Which is still irrelevant, when you take a look at it from an ethics and authoring standpoint. It doesn't invalidate the fact that Troika was trying to acquire the rights, and Bethesda simply didn't give a shit about the previous developers of the game at all. So now that we know Bethesda's treatment and behavior towards acquiring said license, what does this say about their intentions to develop Fallout, since it appears they don't care at all about the fans or original developers' desires? That, in turn, means they will not respect the design as they should, so we should probably forget anything that isn't in Bethesda's style.

Like anything P&P gameplay, or for that matter, anything like a CRPG.

 

[Briosafreak]

I don`t know Kathode, he doesn`t seem to have lied on that topic, and neither i acused him of foul play for any reason, it was actually the opposite. So i`m cool with him, although i find it a shame they didn`t find a way of letting the creators to get back to the license. Oh well.
I don`t have to apologise a thing though, my story is the story of the way Herve handled the process and how it was beeing echoed outside our community, and i didn't attack him, just asked for clarification.

Steve Meister on the other hand is a nice guy, pretty decent, even if i heard he doesn't like NMA that much, probably an exageration i guess.

So when i start to attack Bethesda in any possible way, from the shady deals from someone at Zenimax to th personal life of the janitors please remember it won´t be personal Mr.SmileyFaceDude, and it will only happen when they announce Morrowind with Guns featuring Patrick Stewart, i mean if they anounce something like Morrowind with guns and a pipboy

 

[Brother None]

Change Troika to "a publisher" on my post, on the negociations part, and everything stands.

No, not really. When Bethesda got the license, you said "Troika almost had it"

According to Leon, the publisher that contacted them drew back the moment they heard the price. That's not almost having it. And no publisher would negotiate for Fallout 3 planning to give it to Troika without talking to Troika.

So who's wrong here, you or Leon?

Hmmm on a second reading Saint and Dhruin don`t exactly have anything really wrong on their posts, and Leon confirms that Troika never talked about foul play from Bethesda, like i said, so why did he said the opposite of what most of us said?

You mentioned before Troika almost had it. Others repeated this "fact" at the beginning of the thread. Including Dhruin, who mentions Troika or a publisher tied to it had a deal lined up with Interplay before Beth popped up. Vault Dweller also says "yes, Troika had an arrangement with Interplay".

So either Leon is lying through his teeth or you guys were wrong.

(No shame in being wrong, y'know. I'm just saying)

He confirms that they talked about working on Fallout to Bethesda, a thing we didn`t posted for lack of confirmation here at NMA, btw.

I am well aware.

And I raised the point that if Bethesda was looking to acquire the license over those who had worked on it previously, they should have shown some courtesy as per authoring.

No. No, not really. Troika included a handful of Fallout's creators, including "all" (not sure) core creators, this is true. It's neither the original company nor the original team whole. I don't see by what reality Troika, for having a number of the original Fallout devs has some kind of inherent moral right to the Fallout license.

I see your point, yes. Bethesda can't honestly call themselves fans of the series when they keep the original creators who made what they so love away from their license. Unless they believe they can do a better job, which might be the case.

To act as if Bethesda is being morally reprehensible for not *calling* Troika, who couldn't seriously bid for the license *anyway*. to check whether or not they'd be interested is ludicrous at best.

This is a bussiness. Even if it wasn't, if you're buying something and you want it it's not considered a moral crime if you outbid someone else, even if he loves the object more than you. That's fucking capitalism.

No, I believe it was Bethesda jackals that coined up the "bidding war" and "conspiracy"- right in front of the core Fallout fan audience, so we decided to bring up the issude about them having lacking courtesy or common respect in this industry, which they then made cheap pot-shots at Troika's financial situation. Fucking brilliant on their part.

So fuck both of the Bethesda twats in that thread. I still don't care for their integrity, or the lack thereof, and their clueless spin. They will get an apology when or if ever they deserve one. For whatever, because there's nothing to apologize for here.

There is, though. No matter how badly they handled it, which is their own bussiness and something they might have to apologise for, they got a lot of unfounded shit slung at their heads. Accusations about killing Troika, about knowingly outbidding them as a bunch of bloodthirsty vampires.

This is not fair. As it's not fair, it's deserves an apology. Are we too obtuse for it? Meh, ok then, 's not that important anyway. 's not like those guys are our buddies or anything.

 

[Roshambo]

To act as if Bethesda is being morally reprehensible for not *calling* Troika, who couldn't seriously bid for the license *anyway*. to check whether or not they'd be interested is ludicrous at best.

Did they try to see what the original authors, or those that represented the highest amount of original authors and an affinity for developing in that style, wanted in regards? Did they take the license from those the fans wanted, as Troika was working on acquiring the fundage (sometimes publishers can change their minds - as they might if they knew Bethesda was interested as well, leading to the possibility that Bethesda was counting on nobody else knowing - underhanded in itself) without bothering to offer any answers other than "that is not what we do best" in regards to the design style?

No, they pulled a fucking Hasbro. That should NOT be rewarded nor excused.

This is a bussiness. Even if it wasn't, if you're buying something and you want it it's not considered a moral crime if you outbid someone else, even if he loves the object more than you. That's fucking capitalism.

Authoring, which game development fits into because people pour out their hard work to author a story, has courtesies of its own. That includes not treating the license like a cash cow and snub those who worked hard to create the name in the first place.

So, in essence, they will be taking the hard work and recognition the previous authors made, and then make a cheap buck from it. Kind of like that shithead Chuck Cuevas, and we didn't care for his noise, either.

It may be business, but it sure as fuck isn't moral nor courteous, an attitude which I hope does reflect and bite Bethesda in the ass, eventually.

There is, though. No matter how badly they handled it, which is their own bussiness and something they might have to apologise for, they got a lot of unfounded shit slung at their heads. Accusations about killing Troika, about knowingly outbidding them as a bunch of bloodthirsty vampires.

No, I believe it was the Bethesda folks who brought up the "bidding war" and "conspiracy", so I really don't see any point in apologizing to them for their spin. Nor their shitty remarks about Troika. It has been said that Troika had interest, which Bethesda didn't give a fuck about. So, in turn, why should the Fallout fans respect that? Because it can be excused as "business" and therefore perfectly legal, and therefore not immoral or akin to EA's treatment of Ultima?

This is not fair. As it's not fair, it's deserves an apology.

No, it doesn't. Bethesda acquired the Fallout license without any care towards the fans nor those the fans consider to be the best hope of the series, and they aren't giving anyone any answers to questions that are elementary to deciding to plop down that much money to begin with. Nobody drops a million dollars or greater without some clue of what they are going to do with it.

So when they give reasons and state the intents they have had in buying the license, then I might consider their actions to have some justifiable merit - if their designs on the title aren't MicroForté clueless. Until then, I will consider them to have no courtesy nor respect towards those who previously worked on Fallout, and therefore THEY DESERVE NO RESPECT FROM US.

If they want to treat Fallout like a cash cow, then we should treat them like the whores they are. Just like every other pretentious twit that has waved Fallout around like a prosthetic dick.

Are we too obtuse for it? Meh, ok then, 's not that important anyway. 's not like those guys are our buddies or anything.

It's not like they are real CRPG developers, either, so doubly no loss.

 

[draeke]

So, what's the next release date then? Since it's already December, the original November release date is blown.

 

[Bloodlust]

So, what's the next release date then? Since it's already December, the original November release date is blown.

I suppose that you are talking about Oblivion.As far as i know it's been pushed back 3 months,so expect it some time at february/march.

More info here:
www.waiting4oblivion.com

 

[Dhruin]

You mentioned before Troika almost had it. Others repeated this "fact" at the beginning of the thread. Including Dhruin, who mentions Troika or a publisher tied to it had a deal lined up with Interplay before Beth popped up. Vault Dweller also says "yes, Troika had an arrangement with Interplay".

I'm not sure how I never managed to post here, but there you go...

Look, as I said at RPG Codex, if I owe Troika an apology, I'm happy to do it. If I deserve a kick for "rumour mongering", I'll take that too. I guess I shouldn't have posted but I figured it was old news, Troika was gone anyway - and the source is/was credible.

A contact of mine with a business relationship to game development mentioned something was up with Fallout in early June 2004. On June 19th, I was told Bethesda was about to ink a deal on Fallout 3 - that's a month before the news hit and I don't know anyone who mentioned Bethsoft before that. When the announcement came in mid July, it just proved my contact's story.

He said a deal was being "brokered" on the Fallout 3 rights for Troika with Interplay but basically the finance just couldn't get there, because the timeframe was limited for starters. I took that to mean a bid was in and Bethsoft came in after but on re-reading it, clarified at RPG Codex that perhaps I had made assumptions.

I'm still not sure my guy was wrong, other than me misunderstanding how the "deal" was being done. I don't think Leon contradicts that except it seems to be a publisher, which I didn't read into the emails.

Anyway, I just wanted to say the stuff didn't come out of thin air and was credible.

 

[Briosafreak]

You mentioned before Troika almost had it. Others repeated this "fact" at the beginning of the thread. Including Dhruin, who mentions Troika or a publisher tied to it had a deal lined up with Interplay before Beth popped up. Vault Dweller also says "yes, Troika had an arrangement with Interplay".

A deal lined up no, contacts beeing made yes, Leon confirms that, he just says the publisher took over the process and they weren´t part of the negociations. It`s basically what the source from Dhruin told him, as my own sources also confirmed, but i was also led to believe Troika was running the negociations process, and that was wrong, and that the last contact between Herve and the publisher had been closer to the Bethesda deal signing and it wasn`t, it was probably two weeks earlier, when herve asked the publisher, that had given up for sometime now if they were still interested, stating that although he was set to sign with Beth a deal could still be broke for a sum bigger than the Bethesda one, wich the publisher immeaditely said nothing had changed, and they weren`t interested.

A contact of mine with a business relationship to game development mentioned something was up with Fallout in early June 2004. On June 19th, I was told Bethesda was about to ink a deal on Fallout 3 - that's a month before the news hit and I don't know anyone who mentioned Bethsoft before that. When the announcement came in mid July, it just proved my contact's story.

He said a deal was being "brokered" on the Fallout 3 rights for Troika with Interplay but basically the finance just couldn't get there, because the timeframe was limited for starters. I took that to mean a bid was in and Bethsoft came in after but on re-reading it, clarified at RPG Codex that perhaps I had made assumptions.

Different offers were put on the table, Herve analised them, so it was logical to make that assumption, we both did, as several others that were following the events from a distance.I'm glad Leon straighten things up.

I'm still not sure my guy was wrong, other than me misunderstanding how the "deal" was being done. I don't think Leon contradicts that except it seems to be a publisher, which I didn't read into the emails.

Anyway, I just wanted to say the stuff didn't come out of thin air and was credible.

Both points seem true to me, Kharn is beeing overly sensitive about this, even more because we didn`t acused Beth of "imoral behaviour" or any wrongdoings.

Although if Troika had get the deal it could have lived a bit longer, that seems logical too... not that Bethesda tried anything foul though, i never said that, neither did Dhruin Kharn, if you want to acuse others of that go to their forum.

 

[Roshambo]

Both points seem true to me, Kharn is beeing overly sensitive about this, even more because we didn`t acused Beth of "imoral behaviour" or any wrongdoings.

To be fair, I have. For very good reasons, both due to courtesy in authoring as well as giving the fans some indication of how it will be treated. So far, the explanations have been...very disappointing.

 

[welsh]

It seems to me that all that really happened was that Bethesda bought a license that Troika was not able to afford.

I think we can quibble about great art, and whether one has a right to "authorship." Authors get a moral right to that by way of copyright, inventors by patents. And when they sell them, they are gone.

This may not seem moral or legitimate, but there is a morality to this- one that favors free exchange of the market. You own a right, you can sell that right. If you work for a salary creating a product, than you get compensated for your creative endeavors for that product. Those legal exchanges based on moral grounds- that seek to achieve a sense of rewards for hard work, and the ability of exchange.

This is merely the morality of the market, and it's a harsh morality. Power, in terms of money and influence, can easily triumph over art because power and influence has greater market influence. In this sense Kharn is right- That's fucking capitalism.

But if the morality of the market rewards capitalist virtue with rewards it also comes punishments.

Much of this anticipates that Bethesda will create another poor Fallout sequel that won't live up or surpass fan expectations. As Bethesda is being tightlipped about what they plan, we can only speculate. Because of regular disappointments from those with the license, we can expect disappointment. Bethesda suffers the consequences.

Likewise, if Bethesda is so foolish as not to learn from the mistakes of others, or to realize wehre Fallout Tactics or FOBOS crapped out- or even see the mistakes in Fallout 2- and after spending all this time - than they should crash and burn on this.

The market punishes stupidity too.

We have seen two sequels burn because they were rejected by the fans.

Bethesda's goals are probably profit first, art second. But one achieves profit by being true to the art. Since the art of fallout has so clearly been articulated thus far, Betheda's producers would probably complete fools not to be paying attention.

That said, fools seem to run amuck in this industry- which is probably why CRPGs are fairing so badly.

What worries me is the possibility of someone buying the license the way that some folks buy puppies to drown.

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

This may not seem moral or legitimate, but there is a morality to this- one that favors free exchange of the market. You own a right, you can sell that right. If you work for a salary creating a product, than you get compensated for your creative endeavors for that product. Those legal exchanges based on moral grounds- that seek to achieve a sense of rewards for hard work, and the ability of exchange.

Only in this case not only did the ones credited with the creative endeavour not get compensated, they were refused the opportunity to buy their own creative idea...
And the "compensation" ended up in the hands of those responsible for the failure of the company they worked for and gave their talents to...