What is the proper solution to Tenpenny Tower

[Ziggy Stardust]

I know there have been a lot of forums like this in the past, but every solution has some complication. This adds some excellent depth to the game, but it also starts an interesting conversation: is it better to not have gotten involved at all?

 

[Marynio]

Nice topic.
The first question is whether the player knows the consequences of decisions (because he has already completed the game several times) or not. If not, then it is best to help the ghouls - unfortunately it ends badly for human. I personally know the consistency of those decisions, I killing ghouls all time.

 

[Norzan]

This a case of "which arm you want to cut off?". There's no depth, just pick between these three terrible scenarios.

- Kill the ghouls, the game considers this an evil action.
- Kill everyone in Tenpenny Tower just because they are racist.
- Convice both to live together but the ghouls end killing the humans anyway.

There's absolutely nothing interesting here. Another problem is that the setup is there, it's just so poorly handled.

 

[naossano]

This quest has several problems, but i liked they went for the ghoul betrayal. That is unexpected and bleak.

Personnally, i prefer being sneaky and get rid for Tempenny\Burke\the ghoul leader. And then be left to guest how the community would handle themselves without those three monsters.

 

[Alphons]

Help ghouls move to Tenpenny Tower and kill Roy.

 

[Big No]

There's not really a proper solution. It all depends on who you like more, Bessie or Herbert. Both being the resident good guys of their parties means one of them will die no matter what you do. May not be on par with something like the vault residents and sharecropper folks, but the choice is there.

 

[Ayelander]

Until the Ghouls slaughter the residents, there's no reason to butcher them yourself. Every option is pretty bad.
You can either turn a blind eye and wash your hands of the affair or soak yourself in the blood of either side. I mean, really, that one comic pretty much sums up the entire thing.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This a case of "which arm you want to cut off?". There's no depth, just pick between these three terrible scenarios.

- Kill the ghouls, the game considers this an evil action.
- Kill everyone in Tenpenny Tower just because they are racist.
- Convice both to live together but the ghouls end killing the humans anyway.

There's absolutely nothing interesting here. Another problem is that the setup is there, it's just so poorly handled.

You’re right it’s poorly handled. What bethesda should have done was the exact same thing except being black isles. The fuck are you talking about, poorly handled? Also the game’s Karma system is dumb. We know. We’ve known since fallout 1. But it’s not an issue of which arm to cut off. It’s a challenge to the idea that every problem has a perfect solution, and proposes the idea that maybe some problems are best left alone. It challenges the ideas of right and wrong... you know, the thing everyone kisses the old fallouts asses about. You’ve gone to far down the rabbit hole of old times idolization that the light of reason can no longer reach you.

 

[Norzan]

You’re right it’s poorly handled. What bethesda should have done was the exact same thing except being black isles. The fuck are you talking about, poorly handled? Also the game’s Karma system is dumb. We know. We’ve known since fallout 1. But it’s not an issue of which arm to cut off. It’s a challenge to the idea that every problem has a perfect solution, and proposes the idea that maybe some problems are best left alone. It challenges the ideas of right and wrong... you know, the thing everyone kisses the old fallouts asses about. You’ve gone to far down the rabbit hole of old times idolization that the light of reason can no longer reach you.

All of those endings are a bad one, there's absolutely nothing interesting there. It challenges fucking nothing of right or wrong, it's literally which limb you want to cut off.

Quests with moral ambiguity make the player actually think, this one doesn't. This one makes you think: Do i kill the ghouls? Do i kill everyone in the Tenpenny Tower for the ghouls? Do i make both agree to live with each other but one ends up killing the other? See the problem here? There's always "kill". The first two Fallout games and New Vegas would never have handled this way.

Those games would have properly made you do something less than desirable to make both parties actually live together. They wouldn't gve you the option of convincing them to live together but suddenly one kills the other.

You are starting to reek as a Bethesda fanboy when you start to resort to the old and tired "you just hate Bethesda" fucking nonsense. That's why i like Daggerfall and Morrowind. But please, keep spewing the same bullshit you Bethesda fanboys love to spew and see if i care.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

All of those endings are a bad one, there's absolutely nothing interesting there. It challenges fucking nothing of right or wrong, it's literally which limb you want to cut off.

Quests with moral ambiguity make the player actually think, this one doesn't. This one makes you think: Do i kill the ghouls? Do i kill everyone in the Tenpenny Tower for the ghouls? Do i make both agree to live with each other but one ends up killing the other? See the problem here? There's always "kill". The first two Fallout games and New Vegas would never have handled this way.

You are starting to reek as a Bethesda fanboy when you start to resort to the old and tired "you just hate Bethesda" fucking nonsense. That's why i like Daggerfall and Morrowind. But please, keep spewing the same bullshit you Bethesda fanboys love to spew and see if i care.

Peace can’t solve everything. The pacifist thing to do would be to move the ghouls into tenpenny tower. And to the player’s knowledge, it is the right solution. It’s a clever twist that I didn’t expect on my first run through, and it made me start asking those questions.

 

[Norzan]

Peace can’t solve everything. The pacifist thing to do would be to move the ghouls into tenpenny tower. And to the player’s knowledge, it is the right solution. It’s a clever twist that I didn’t expect on my first run through, and it made me start asking those questions.

Except it doesn't work when it does something out of the control of the player. The ghouls just end up killing everyone in the Tenpenny Tower anyway, making you wonder what's the point.

Also, there's no moral ambiguity. Most of the people in the Tenpenny Tower are racist assholes and the game actively tells killing the ghouls is evil, going as far to have Three Dog criticize you for it. Bethesda instead of removing the karma system or downplay it, they reinforced it and made it even worse than it was in the first two games. Obsidian at least had the right idea of downplaying the karma system greatly for the reputation system.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Except it doesn't work when it does something out of the control of the player. The ghouls just end up killing everyone in the Tenpenny Tower anyway, making you wonder what's the point.

Also, there's no moral ambiguity. Most of the people in the Tenpenny Tower are racist assholes and the game actively tells killing the ghouls is evil, going as far to have Three Dog criticize you for it. Bethesda instead of removing the karma system or downplay it, they reinforced it and made it even worse than it was in the first two games. Obsidian at least had the right idea of downplaying the karma system greatly for the reputation system.

Ignore the Karma for a moment. Multiple of the residents killed are pro-equality. And even the racist ones. Do they deserve to be killed in their own homes just because of their beliefs? Sounds ambiguos to.me

 

[Fizzycswag]

This a case of "which arm you want to cut off?". There's no depth, just pick between these three terrible scenarios.

- Kill the ghouls, the game considers this an evil action.
- Kill everyone in Tenpenny Tower just because they are racist.
- Convice both to live together but the ghouls end killing the humans anyway.

There's absolutely nothing interesting here. Another problem is that the setup is there, it's just so poorly handled.

My favorite part is how that quest makes you look like a villain regardless of your choices. I'm looking at you Three Dog...

 

[Risewild]

The best part is if you agreed to explode Megaton but didn't do it before letting the ghouls kill everyone. The game will not let you fail that quest, and instead will show Mr Burke having a talk with Roy, it ends with them being all buddy-buddy and you will still be able to explode Megaton.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The best part is if you agreed to explode Megaton but didn't do it before letting the ghouls kill everyone. The game will not let you fail that quest, and instead will show Mr Burke having a talk with Roy, it ends with them being all buddy-buddy and you will still be able to explode Megaton.

We’re back on track

 

[Fizzycswag]

The best part is if you agreed to explode Megaton but didn't do it before letting the ghouls kill everyone. The game will not let you fail that quest, and instead will show Mr Burke having a talk with Roy, it ends with them being all buddy-buddy and you will still be able to explode Megaton.

They tried way too hard to force that quest on you...

 

[naossano]

The worse being the fanbase defending that quest as an example of Choices and Consequences...

 

[Norzan]

The worse being the fanbase defending that quest as an example of Choices and Consequences...

You just killed several people because some asshole thought Megaton was "ruining his view" from his tower and the only thing you get as a consequence is "disappointment" from your father. This fucking game, jesus.

 

[Fizzycswag]

You just killed several people because some asshole thought Megaton was "ruining his view" from his tower and the only thing you get as a consequence is "disappointment" from your father. This fucking game, jesus.

Son, I'm very disappointed in you. You blew up a town with to dozens of people including children. You irradiated the surrounding area and destroyed a significant trade route location. Nope, nothing else! No consequences!

 

[NMLevesque]

Your choices all have the same outcome. Some innocent people die. Some wicked people die. Roy and his two besties is a lot fewer than 'all of Tenpenny Tower'. There's no way of knowing that, so what's the message? That you should be paranoid about Roy? That you should be technically evil if it means lucking into the least bad outcome? Is this meta? Should we praise them for being stupid on a technical level, because it meant accidentally bringing up a better question than the quest itself?

We can talk about intent vs outcome, trolley problems, and so on but the problem is that these questions are not part of the narrative. They're consequences of it, sure, but in direct contradiction to how the story is told. Damned if you do, dammed if you don't doesn't work when killing Roy et al only means a temporary drop in a borderline meaningless stat. Intent vs outcome doesn't work because if you intend to be lazy, you get a better outcome. I.E the message there would be 'sometimes the wrong intent gets the right results'. So basically 'go make accidents happen'. Which is just dumb. I could go on with other potential questions, but you get the idea.

The second problem is that this quest provides no answers. Which is also the major problem with Bethesda's writing for Fallout. It raises muddied questions, drops the mic, and walks offstage to leave us to come up with something better by thinking around what they actually wrote.