What of Fallout 3 is considered "true" canon/fanon

In response to Axolotl's post: Putting aside how glaringly in-your-face provocative the post was, well said! The whole trend of the conversation is one I find exhausting in how vehemently wrong (I feel) others are, and yet they cannot see it, so I can understand why you choose to actively pursue insults. A couple of these users are just in denial, a couple are simply wrong and unable to accept that, and a couple have opinions I'd LIKE to respect, but just find myself at odds with. Some of them ought to be treated harshly, but I've opted not to. You provided solid facts to back your argument, and your points are grounded and accurate, so props to that. Not trying to kiss your ass, I'm just trying to say "YAY! Someone else has a clue!"

Canon isn't about who owns the rights, and just because future titles will acknowledge FO3 does not make it any less Fanon than it is. That's simply how fact and fiction works, with respect to canon. True Fallout Fans, as Toront pointed out, being in the minority is not a point in FO3's favor. Just because the vast majority of fans are Beth fanboys doesn't change that their idol is a work of pure Fanon. There's absolute purpose in discussing works of fiction, because that's what we base ALL of our values and our interpretation of the world around us on. Every instance you use to justify your choices is an instance of fiction, so why would you draw an indistinguishable line at works of art and say that it's pointless to debate them? That's intellectually-stunted thinking.
 
I made my case against the reductionist "canon = official" definition in another thread, primarily in this post, so I'm not going to repeat all of it, but basically, not only is it not very useful, it doesn't make much sense in context. I think Yamu is spot on when he talks about work integrity. If you're talking about a single novel and the single author wants to make canonical explanations about an unclear or unreliable narrative, that's one thing - assuming anyone gets to make canonical statements outside of the work itself, it's that guy. In the case of a video game franchise with half a dozen games and spin-offs made by roughly as many different developers with generous helpings of Words of Gods, Words of Dantes and Words of Burning Winos, the idea of maintaining a "canonical" world state doesn't break down so much as it doesn't make much sense to begin with. A hypothetical Fallout 7 will be good at establishing canon for itself, to the extent that the concept applies. It will not be quite so good at establishing canon for the abstracted Fallout world. Doesn't matter who owns what by that time.
 
So some want to deny F3 existed, yet some accept FNV as canon? If Fallout 4 was actually good, whatever slim chance that might be, would you then accept that canon, or disregard it because it references F3? That's what gets me. Say that Fallout 4 is actually on par with New Vegas if not better. It leaves you with a hodgepodge of fanon where some people deny some parts, while others state them to be true. Tactics is only partially canon, could not F3 be considered the same as that, while not disregarding everything it brought up? Both raped the canon in different ways. I understand where you guys are coming from believe me...

I say it's pointless I suppose because it's been debated to death and we are still back at the same place we started. F3 is admired by hordes of people who don't know shit about Fallout, while we sit in stubborn denial of the truth. We can cling to what little is left of Fallout, debating canon all the want, while these fucks come along and trash the franchise, helpless to do anything besides saying no that game doesn't count. We don't have the numbers to make a real difference. Nothing we do can change it. What's the point if we can't do anything is my point? So basically we are left with a Fallout universe where no one agrees on anything. Some only like Fallout 1. Some like Fallout 2. Some like both. Some like only Tactics. Some like only Fallout 3. Some like Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas. Everyone's fanon is different. It makes for a pretty incoherent universe really. You can't even discuss the games because some will deny one certain game ever happened.

Some will say, "Yeah I choose not to believe that happened.", but what about this other game that you liked that referenced that? "Oh I just disregard that..", so I'm left scratching my head trying to understand how this helps the series at all. Instead of attempting to make what sense we can with what we have, we deny certain parts exist and cling to the original two games in the franchise like a Holy Bible. You know what that means right? Fallout is dead. It's either admit Fallout is dead, or attempt to make due with what we have. Am I wrong?

I suppose I'm used to other works canon in many ways. In the Star Wars books, you have hundreds of pages of canon, all organized by timeline and events, where you can go through and research what happened, who did what, where the series left off...Yet with Fallout(yes it's a different media sure) it's completely fucked. We have the two golden oldies, one spin-off, one POS, one game that people want to say is in an alternate universe, and a pretty decent continuation of what Van Burn would have been with FNV....

The series is a complete fucking mess. Makes me pissed off is what it does. I find myself browsing the Wikia at all hours of the night , but this discussion here, makes me wonder why I give a shit. The Fallout community is completely split down the middle. On the left the old school fans, on the right the new age Fallout fans. I guess I find myself somewhere in the middle leaning towards the left.. :?

Forgive me for disagreeing with you folks, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth all around. Now I feel how Roshambo did I guess. All hope is lost it seems. Fuck.
 
No offense, but why should what the community thinks matter to you any more than what the devs do? Canon's always been a moderately nebulous thing. Those Star Wars books you mentioned, (in fact, the entire 35-year extended universe, as you may be aware), are actually arranged in multiple nesting levels of "canonicity," from "This was in the movies, it's a thing, deal with it" all the way down to "Christmas Special." You could go back to Lovecraft, Poe, Dickens, Conan-Doyle, Shakespeare... all had enthusiastic admirers and imitators, some of which were encouraged (if not always vouched for) by the authors themselves and a number of which spun off works elevated by latter-day fans into canonical or para-canonical regard.

It only matters to the extent that you let it, and to the extent that it defines the ongoing works in a series. If Fallout's canon devolves to the point where it's impossible to make a good game, we can mourn it with all due pomp and gravitas. If not, take what you like, leave what you don't, and don't lose your grip on fond memories and the hope for brighter days. In a series with a past this checkered, a consensus on fanon matters far less than the fact that each fan comes to grips with their own.
 
The way FO3 dealt with existing canon is not exactly great, but it`s fairly easy to rationalize into the existing lore along with Fallout tactics and so on. There are many fantasy and sci-fi worlds with worse canonical differences.

For example if you really want messed up conflicting canon, try getting into Warhammer 40k. Fallout is pure and unified compared to trying to sort or argue that awfulness.
 
TorontRayne said:
F3 is admired by hordes of people who don't know shit about Fallout, while we sit in stubborn denial of the truth. We can cling to what little is left of Fallout, debating canon all the want, while these fucks come along and trash the franchise, helpless to do anything besides saying no that game doesn't count. We don't have the numbers to make a real difference. Nothing we do can change it. What's the point if we can't do anything is my point?
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Maybe it's because I'm a Serb who grew up (as Serbs typically do) with a politically activist family, but this is the point: Turning your eyes away from atrocity doesn't change the fact of it being right or wrong. I grew up in the States which proudly denies actual fact in favor of its revisionist history, where it deifies soldiers, and romanticizes the WWII era, whose current populace can't come to grips with the fact that it's a Neo Facist global dictatorship. So should I stop investigating the truth and knowing what my birth country has ACTUALLY done to my ancestral country? Should I just resign myself to the fact that my voice is pitifully miniscule up against the roar of zealous and blind patriots who claim "America protecting freedom" is actually what's going on, instead of suppression of freedom? Of course not. The truth is unconquerable and infallible. That's the point. What is will always be, whether you're aware of it or not. So why ignore it?

In context of this discussion, bad games come around, and some of them (like FOBOS) received the proper response of utter and widespread disgust, and some of them (like FO3) received the arguably undeserved "best game ever" appreciation of a largely clueless populace. Just because everyone's ignorant doesn't mean we have to pander to them and agree with them, when they're very clearly wrong. That's what I despise most about people arguing "it's canon according to whoever owns the rights"; not strictly that they're absolutely wrong (which they are), but that it's defeatist in nature. So you have no conviction in what you perceive the truth to be that you'd rather let others dictate it for you? That's just pathetic. It doesn't matter if you're in the minority if you're right. You should take pride in being in the right. (Just... ya know... actually BE right, instead of a bigot who simply assumes that he is.)

That's the point of debating it. Help those who CAN come to grips with reality understand the truth, even if it might be yourself who has been blind thus far.
 
I would say there is a difference between reality and a video game Snap. The difference being defending yourself from a tyrannical government can change your life in some way. Fallout is only a hobby, no matter how important it is in your life. I tend to be very vocal against some of my governments...malicious acts, yet Fallout is on the bottom of my concern pile, right there with Marvel Comics, TMNT, and Lord of the Rings... Sure both are atrocities in their own way but one can ruin your life, the other only pisses you off. :shrug:

For one, I will fight to the death to defend what is right, the other not so much. I get where you are coming from. It bother me a lot actually, but other things deserve more attention atm. I choose to believe F3 is semi canon, along with Tactics. Simply because I don't agree with picking and choosing what happened. You know why I can't do it when it comes down to it? I can't "forget" what I know now. I can't simply tell myself, "It is a separate universe, or it didn't happen." because I know it did. Sure I can say it is a travesty, it sucked, the story made no fucking sense, but I can't say fanon proclaims it didn't happen. I just.....can't do it. I'm unable to forget what it did to the franchise and how it changed the lore. Does that make me an apologist? Possibly. I don't like it, but it's who I am. I tend to rationalize things...

I think I can rationalize away a lot of it really. I can conveniently forget certain aspects that violated the lore. All it takes is not exposing myself to the game any more. Easy fix on that one. The future titles will reference minor events that occurred which can be fit into the existing framework without too much trouble. I can fit Fallout Tactics in there too. Hell even POS could fit if I liked, but that game has no fans to defend it so it died off. I don't like this situation I find myself in, maybe it's a personality quirk. I am mildly insane at times. Please forgive my shortcomings Fallout Gods. I bow out ashamed...and slightly aroused. :wink:
 
I usually forget you're an Orderite, but then I see some of your more gimmicky posts and comments (like the last 2 lines there.... *shakes head*) and I'm reminded. 6_6

Like I said in an earlier post, deciding based on the merits of importance to not care about something is just drawing an arbitrary line that one can easily argue is self-contradictory to delineate. Sure, a company coming along, buying the rights to one of my favorite franchises, and proceeding to produce HORRENDOUS titles under its name that- to abuse a phrase just for the sake of poignancy -"rapes my childhood" is not nearly as big of a deal as a country waging wars, and then pretending that never happened. I'll never argue that the scale of their importance isn't worlds apart. But why should that honestly matter? It's not like arguing the point because it's the right thing to do is going to distract you from focusing on "more important" endeavors. I don't give up on trying to make the world a better place, one person at a time, just because I want to spend some effort arguing the finer points of a video game franchise's finest details and the quality of its more recent works. I can do both, so I shall. It's all part and parcel to what I already expressed: the point is that it's valuable to err on the side of just, no matter how miniscule the impact of the matter is. It's letting those "little things" slide that allows small inconveniences to snowball into large and unforgivable monstrosities to begin with.

Indeed, your attitude is very apologist, but if that's your prerogative, and my efforts to persuade you thus far are any indication of it not changing any time soon, then there's nothing I can do about that. I just don't care about winning or losing fights, I care about being on the right side. That's me. =/
 
Well said my friend. I shall do my best. I know you will as well. 8-)
 
Per said:
As an admin I declare this whole thread to be semi-canon.
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Needs to be shot out of a cannon. Does that ever bug you guys? When people think it's spelled like that? Cannon. Automatically I am forced to disregard whatever they say and look at how they can't spell the word. Distracting.


Fallout 3 canon should be shot out of a cannon, into Todd Howard's house. Where is his #1 fan when you need him?

*Summon Todd Howard's #1 Fan*

*Summon Roshambo*

ROUND ONE.

FIGHT!
 
When people say that I tend to start talking about cannons. Or just redirect the conversation to talk about cannons anyway cause sperging about canon gets old really fast, since it'll either degenerate into a huge flamewar or one big echo chamber.
 
I'm usually forgiving of the misspelling, but it does stick out at me like a proud nail. I've developed the Pavlovian coping mechanism of playing the 1812 overture in my head whenever I see it. Yay cannons!
 
I think that Fallout 3 was doomed to begin with. It was a disaster waiting to happen. The only way that they could have saved it from the forums for criticism is by making the game an isometric turn based CRPG. Unfortunately, doing so would not make a game that sells but would instead make a game that appeals to a small group of people (nma) who only contribute to a small portion of game sales. As for the issue of whether or not the game is canon, I think that the game needed super mutants to sell the game as part of the Fallout series to people who know of the general concept of the Fallout universe, but have probably never played the original Fallouts. But Bethesda definitely side stepped the whole FEV virus thing being contained to the West Coast. So all in all, i think that even if they didn't use super mutants in Fallout 3 and came up with something more creative and cannon, Fallout 3 would have still faced heavy criticism for the nma. Unfortunately the Fallout series, as it was meant to be, could never survive in this world of 8 year old Xbox players who care more about blowing off the heads of raiders than whether or not the game followed in the footsteps of one of the greatest crpg series of all time.
 
Yamu said:
I'm usually forgiving of the misspelling, but it does stick out at me like a proud nail. I've developed the Pavlovian coping mechanism of playing the 1812 overture in my head whenever I see it. Yay cannons!
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I think of some old battleships going volley fire on some shit.
 
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