What The World Thinks Of God

[Dove]

Santa isn't real!?!?

*weeps*

 

[Katja]

Screw Santa!

...Edward Scissorhands isn't real?

 

[Paladin Solo]

"haha, Satan, Santa, holy shit, they're the same person!"---Detroit Rock City

 

[Sander]

I trust the BBC less then I trust my ass, because my ass at least gets alot less shit, alot less frequently out. It is consistently proven to be the least reliabale scource in free media, as the recent "TONY BLAIR=DEVIL" bizzare thing showed.

Now you're being silly. You consider ONE incident as "consistently proven"? Over the years, the BBC has proven to be probably the most reliable international source of information and news, but everyone screws up once in a while.
What's more, this has nothing to do with news, but with polling(simple polling) and debates by actual members of those religious churches.

My sister is in Amsterdam right now. I am trying to get her to watch the Turkish channel, but am afraid she is having to much fun with certain other things the Netherlands are known for.

Go your sister!
Ehmm...anyway, I doubt she'd find it useful to watch it, unless she knows Turkish. We do have a special station on Ned 1(I think) that has one or two hours of arabic television every once in a while(This due to that show being for muslims).

I got the impression that Britan was WAY to secular for my tastes when I was there. I was actually scared. There where anti-religious riots all the time in Birmingham. Why do you think that is? 25% of them think a world without religion would be more peacful.....damn. Not even France has those levels, good old Catholics that they are.

Hehe. CCR is scared of a bunch of non-religious people. I'd personally be a lot more scared of a bunch of religious wackos...

Your wording is revealing. "Let me draw the conclusion" is certainly a funny way to say it.

Well, it did let me draw that conclusion. As I've said before, the majority of muslims considers those suicide attacks to be horrendous. This show confirmed that.

Well, first of all that is bullshit. When Mathair Muhammed of "LETS ALL KILL THE JEWS" fame is considerd a Moderate in a liberal Islamic nation (just look at Exitium, in Syria or Suadi Arabia he would be dead), when 70% of Palestinians thinik that the Intifada should not end with the creation of a Palestinian state, you have major goddamn problems.

So one man, and 70% of the population of a war-struck country are extreme in their views, and you immediately view that as the majority of muslims? Great reasoning....

Blade Runner: As always, your atheist "reasoning" is bad reasoning. If you don't want religious threads, don't participate.
A) There is no way(NO WAY) you can ever prove or even reasonably conclude that there is no god at all.
B) You can never prove or disprove the existence of God.

 

[Gruug]

Hey Sander, wtf kind of cable are you subscribed to? When I went over there for my 2 near 3 year bout, we got KanaalPlus, it had all the essentials, most annoyingly cartoon network and other such channels which my brothers watched constantly untill the dutch dubbed everything, hehehe.

Oh, and onto the point about god.
Just to point it out, I'm athiest.
So you say there is a god. One god if your christian... So does than mean the couple of other billion people are wrong and there is only your god? Most likely not.
Hell, most likely you are all wrong, but eh.
Anyways, let me ask you a question? If there is a god, then how did he fuck up in making us? And how the hell does he control the fate of 6 billion people? Not to mention the other couple of billion animals? All this with telepathic power in some clouds surrounded by angels? You come preaching that to me, and you can be leaving at the barrel of a gun. Because that is just a crock of bullshit.
And now let the discussion/debate begin!

 

[Sander]

Hey Sander, wtf kind of cable are you subscribed to? When I went over there for my 2 near 3 year bout, we got KanaalPlus, it had all the essentials, most annoyingly cartoon network and other such channels which my brothers watched constantly untill the dutch dubbed everything, hehehe.

Just the standard cable package. No Kanaal plus, nor cartoon network though.

Now, I am not a Christian or even religious, but I'll respond anyway:

If there is a god, then how did he fuck up in making us

Maybe he didn't fuck up. If he's omnipotent, he could've given us free will, and then we just went out and did as we are doing now. Maybe he just wants to see us all squirm. Whatever the case, there is not even a thing suggesting that he fucked up.

And how the hell does he control the fate of 6 billion people? Not to mention the other couple of billion animals?

He's omnipotent. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of that, but it means that he.can.do.anything. Literally anything.

All this with telepathic power in some clouds surrounded by angels?

It doesn't say that in the bible.


As I've said before, there is no way you can even reasonably establish that there is no god.

 

[Gruug]

And there is no SOLID proof that there is a god, either. And no, by solid I do not mean books.
And what ever happened with those fanatics that said jesus was going to be reborn in 2000? Wouldn't he be curing people of terminal illnesses by now?

 

[alec]

Blade Runner: As always, your atheist "reasoning" is bad reasoning.

Reasoning? Who says I want to reason with - of all people - religious people? History has proven to us, again and again, that you can't reason with religious people. So why in hell's name would I want to try reasoning, huh? Pf! I'm just following my instincts, and trust me: they're good instincts. They saved my neck a couple of times before.

If you don't want religious threads, don't participate.

Nah. I'm here because I have got an opinion about religions and all the lakeys that believe in them: I think they're stupid. They lack something in life called 'common sense'. And I feel it is my duty to tell them so. It is my mission. My moral crusade. It is... my destiny.

You can never prove the existence of God.

Exactly my point.
No that that is settled, how about someone locked this thread, huh?

 

[Sander]

Reasoning? Who says I want to reason with - of all people - religious people? History has proven to us, again and again, that you can't reason with religious people. Pf! I'm just following my instincts, and trust me: they're good instincts. They saved my neck a couple of times before.

But then you fall into the same trap: You assume that something is wrong simply because you don't like it, not because of sound reasoning.
Plus, you're flaming.

Nah. I'm here because I have got an opinion about religions and all the lakeys that believe in them: I think they're stupid. They lack something in life called 'common sense'. And I feel it is my duty to tell them so. It is my mission. My moral crusade. It is... my destiny.

Well, if you want to tell them, then why the hell do you want to the religious threads to disappear? tsk, tsk, tsk.

Exactly my point.
No that that is settled, how about someone locked this thread, huh?

How about: no.
Besides, you can't disprove the existance of god either. So you're no better than them.

 

[alec]

You assume that something is wrong simply because you don't like it, not because of sound reasoning.

Oh for crying out loud. I think religious people are stupid because my common sense and my knowledge about the world tell me that there is/are no god/gods. And that's all I need: common sense, a little life-experience, some basic knowledge of reality. The same things that told me that Santa Claus was invented, that Edward Scissorhands is a fairy-tale, that interstellar space-travel is most probably impossible, that women are not as nice as in the old movies, that we are stuck on this sad planet and that no one is watching over us. And that we are screwing things up here. And that believing in a deity that will rescue us or save us or give us lots of wealth and food and horny virgins when we pass away and step into nothingness is one big lie. Common sense told me that. And other people's life-stories. The history of the world told me that.

Don't think I can't understand the need to fill up this gap in your mind. You know: the hole where the rain gets in and the rain has the shape of existential questions like 'Where do we come from?' and 'What are we here for?' and 'Where will we go?'. I know them. Everyone knows them. And everyone wants to fix those holes to stop the rain from wandering. Hell yeah. And lots of those people find comforting answers in religion. All those stories, those morals, those civilized ideas of being so-and-so, all those totally arbitrary things written down by centuries of subjective, imaginative writers kind of fills the gap for these people. I can see that. I've read some (not all) of the Bible and I've noticed how these stories are basically well-written, well thought out, how they have probably been shaped and reshaped and rewritten and edited over the past centuries. They have an inner logic, they connect and form a system, something that works for people, a design for life. And it works just fine for them, most of the time. The trick, though, is that you really really have to believe all of that religious crap so that it can do its work for you. So that you feel blessed. If you can see the anachronisms, the symbols, the metaphors, the similis, the analogies, the plot-building, the ingenious use of characters, the historical mistakes (made to fit the storyline and setting), the obvious bullshit (Ichabod, the brother of Imaël, was 756 years of age and so on), well, that's the point where you also start to doubt and when you doubt you want to be sure and than you start reading scientific books and maybe some philosphy, and you have to choose.
Now I've read several philosophers, large chunks of the Bible and the Quran, I've read some works about other religions and especially about and containing Creation stories. Well: I was not impressed. To me, these things are all stories, little systems based on misconceptions, false ideas, folklore, myths, lies, thought-experiments. They are only logical within the little universe they create for the reader (to numb his mind from the existential pain, oh yeah, baby) but they make no sense at all in reality, in the real universe out there, the one that is governed by laws and forces so great and powerful, that we should feel like something the cat dragged in. Instead most of us read 'da holy book' and feel super and released and go like 'Hey, you know what? I was designed by God, isn't that great, and although I've never actually seen this fellow, I've read about him in a book that is very old and now everything in my life makes more... sense. Yeah, now I feel blessed, and now I know who invented the sun and the planets and now I see that Darwin who was a scientist and actually looked at and studied his material (which was the visible reality, the real reality for all you believers), that Darwin was a liar and a fraud. And when I die I'm going to heaven which is a place that no one has ever seen, but the old book I mentioned earlier, the Bible, says it's really nice there, so even if my legs get blown off and my wife gets raped by ten Japanese dwarfs with an unhealthy Manga-obsession, and my only daughter gets hooked on meth and valium, I shouldn't feel bad, because I know God is watching over me and my family and he'll help me out when he finds the time and if not, I'm going to die and go to heaven and there I'll be rewarded for all my suffering and misery and bad luck.'

Pf...

Plus, you're flaming.

Hey asshole: what does 'flaming' mean anyway? Eh? Eh?

Well, if you want to tell them, then why the hell do you want to the religious threads to disappear?

Because I think it would benefit humanity. And my blood-pressure.

How about: no.

How about: I don't give a flying fuck?
No seriously, mate: I tried, I tried to show you the light, the real light, the light that shines in the gutter, but you refuse to believe me and that's... hell, that's just fine with me. Be stupid then. Go on. Be stupid and enjoy your own stupidity. The world awaits you, my son.

 

[Sander]

Oh for crying out loud. I think religious people are stupid because my common sense and my knowledge about the world tell me that there is/are no god/gods. And that's all I need: common sense, a little life-experience, some basic knowledge of reality. The same things that told me that Santa Claus was invented, that Edward Scissorhands is a fairy-tale, that interstellar space-travel is most probably impossible, that women are not as nice as in the old movies, that we are stuck on this sad planet and that no one is watching over us. And that we are screwing things up here. And that believing in a deity that will rescue us or save us or give us lots of wealth and food and horny virgins when we pass away and step into nothingness is one big lie. Common sense told me that. And other people's life-stories. The history of the world told me that.

Oh, come on, Blade Runner. That's no argument, that's merely a statement. It amounts to "I know there is no god because it has not been proven." Well, since it's impossible to prove one thing or the other, we'll have to look at the statistics:
Assuming there is an infinite number of possible higher beings/things:
The chance that there is NO higher being, will then be equal to the chance of any single specific higher being being there. This means that the chance that there is no higher being at all, is equal to: 1/(infinity-1)=approximately 0.
In this line of reasoning, it is so that the chance that any specific religion is correct must be equal to that: 1/(infinity-1)=approximately 0. Ergo, you cannot possibly establish that there is no higher being, without delving into your own faith. Making strong atheism(the belief that there is no higher being) a faith in itself.
Note that due to the mere meaning of infinity, infinity-1 is still infinity.

Blah...blah...blah...more blah.

Basically you're saying that you don't think any of the existing religions are correct. Good for you! But that does not mean that there is no higher being at all.

Darwin who was a scientist and actually looked at and studied his material (which was the visible reality, the real reality for all you believers),

Philosophically speaking, there is no way of determining that anything but yourself exists(and even your own existence is questionable). Thusly, you cannot know for certain that the world you are experiencing and percieving is actually "the real world". Ehehe....

Because I think it would benefit humanity. And my blood-pressure.

Hey, no one's forcing you to participate or even read this thread, you know.

No seriously, mate: I tried, I tried to show you the light, the real light, the light that shines in the gutter, but you refuse to believe me and that's... hell, that's just fine with me. Be stupid then. Go on. Be stupid and enjoy your own stupidity. The world awaits you, my son.

Personally, I feel that my own stance on religion is probably the most sound and logical one: I don't have a fucking clue.

 

[welsh]

Folks, take it easy. It's only a religion thread.

However, let me point out a thread-

We are seeing a rise of mixing church and state.
We have a president that is supporting marriage,
But not gay marriage.
we have policies that give more money to religious education.
And we all know that many religions preach that suffering is good for the soul.

SO what if we all become more christian, suffer, banish homosexuality and abandon secular public education for religious private education.

Is this really a better world?

Or the better question-

For who?

 

[Myrrdin]

SO what if we all become more christian, suffer, banish homosexuality and abandon secular public education for religious private education.

Hehe. Then those who believe in repeating history will be proven right. If this happens it will most likely accelerate so that the beliefs will become more and more extreme and the western world will take on the burden of the Mid East/Africa. And Africa/Mid East will say: "Hey! We don't wanna be like those *other* bastards!" and thus will become open and accepting societies. All this while the Asians just kick back and laugh at the stupidity.

 

[Brother None]

SO what if we all become more christian, suffer, banish homosexuality and abandon secular public education for religious private education.

Hehe. Then those who believe in repeating history will be proven right. If this happens it will most likely accelerate so that the beliefs will become more and more extreme and the western world will take on the burden of the Mid East/Africa. And Africa/Mid East will say: "Hey! We don't wanna be like those *other* bastards!" and thus will become open and accepting societies. All this while the Asians just kick back and laugh at the stupidity.

Circle-movements!

Y'know...while I wouldn't call that an invalid historic theory, I don't like it.

Norbert Elias theorized that civilization always moves forward and as such doesn't have a 0-point. Also, he selected (he's a sociologists, they always select) several points in civilization and showed how they consistently moved forward all through history, on the long term, even if they diminish or backlash at times.

Heck, I can't think of any major sociologist that supports the circle-theories, not that that would mean it isn't possible, but this is a sociological field we're talking about.

One would argue that the movements witnessed in the US right now, which will probably, like most movements, hit Europe in a while, are only temporary "fads" and that after a number of years the wave will turn and continue in the direction it was heading, that of "free love, man" and y'know...stuff

The chance that there is NO higher being, will then be equal to the chance of any single specific higher being being there. This means that the chance that there is no higher being at all, is equal to:

You're assuming that the chances of all the beings existing are equal. That is as silly an assumption as assuming a being exists or assuming that it doesn't exist

All you can assume is that there is A chance of a being existing and A chance of a being not existing, anything further you figure out about these chances is assumption, because there is no data available whatsoever

Personally, I feel that my own stance on religion is probably the most sound and logical one: I don't have a fucking clue.

Yet you just made an analysis based on assumption

The least you could do is admit that you assume a lot. I'm agnostic, like you, but to live I have to assume...I assume the world exists, for instance.

And, much like CC would do, you're avoiding one of Blade's statements (whether he made it conciously or not): if you assume Santa Claus and Edward Scissorhands don't exist without any TRUE evidence (since true evidence doesn't exist), why won't you assume Gods don't exist, despite their only proof being that there's writings about them and people believe in them?

 

[welsh]

Well Kharn- as for cyclic theories, immediately to my mind comes cyclic theories of economic relationships. The business cycle, for instance is a good one. This cycle theory also finds itself in such theories of hegemonic stability theory and hegemonic cycles, and in some specific cases like the dynastic cycles of Chinese historiography.

 

[John Uskglass]

Reasoning? Who says I want to reason with - of all people - religious people? History has proven to us, again and again, that you can't reason with religious people. So why in hell's name would I want to try reasoning, huh? Pf! I'm just following my instincts, and trust me: they're good instincts. They saved my neck a couple of times before.

There is a book by Umberto Eco on Thomas Aquinas that he wrote in english. PRetty good, not great as he was really young, but it proves your opinon to be alot more ignorant than his (that being Aquinas).

Nah. I'm here because I have got an opinion about religions and all the lakeys that believe in them: I think they're stupid. They lack something in life called 'common sense'. And I feel it is my duty to tell them so. It is my mission. My moral crusade. It is... my destiny.

You see Sander? This guy is scary. This guy would beat me up if he knew I was Christian. This is the kind of guy in England that scared the shit out of me...washed up moron who still think that a bunch of dead commies had the world right.

Exactly my point.
No that that is settled, how about someone locked this thread, huh?

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Fifty years ago people belived it was impossible to break the sound barrier, people thought it was impossible that the Bible was anything but a bunch of fairy tales.....both of them where wrong.

Oh for crying out loud. I think religious people are stupid because my common sense and my knowledge about the world tell me that there is/are no god/gods. And that's all I need: common sense, a little life-experience, some basic knowledge of reality.

People with ALOT more common sene then you have belived in god- Descartes, Elvis, Einstien, Aquinas......

The same things that told me that Santa Claus was invented, that Edward Scissorhands is a fairy-tale, that interstellar space-travel is most probably impossible,

Well, first of all the first two things are quite proveable. Scissorhands was a creation of Burton, and Santa Claus is a weirdified version of an Anatolian saint. God is an all powerful, unknowable being.

And you are wrong about intersteller travel. Hypothetically quantum travel is possible, though it could be argued that that would be another dimension's somewhere else.

 

[Brother None]

Well Kharn- as for cyclic theories, immediately to my mind comes cyclic theories of economic relationships. The business cycle, for instance is a good one. This cycle theory also finds itself in such theories of hegemonic stability theory and hegemonic cycles, and in some specific cases like the dynastic cycles of Chinese historiography.

Hmmm hmmm hmmm

But these are all cases dissimilar to what we're discussing, tho' the example of the Chinese dynasties is a good one (equally, you could name the rise and diminish of the French and German royal houses from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Renaissance)...

But what are you saying? Doubtlessely, the cyclic theories can be proven in some fields, but as I mentioned, I don't recall ever reading any in the sociological field...it would be rather silly to assume that the cyclic theory is, because it's true in one field, true in all fields. That kind of reasoning is exactly why I dislike Social Darwinism.

You see Sander? This guy is scary. This guy would beat me up if he knew I was Christian. This is the kind of guy in England that scared the shit out of me...washed up moron who still think that a bunch of dead commies had the world right.

While I do not agree with Blade's...ahm...unique form of thinking, I fail to see how his absolute moral justification is any worse than that of a Christian, muslim or Jew.

 

[alec]

This guy is scary. This guy would beat me up if he knew I was Christian. This is the kind of guy in England that scared the shit out of me...washed up moron who still think that a bunch of dead commies had the world right.

I'm Belgian.
And my 76-year-old grandmother could win a fight from me.

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

Hey, that was on my box of cereals as well.

Fifty years ago people belived it was impossible to break the sound barrier, people thought it was impossible that the Bible was anything but a bunch of fairy tales.....both of them where wrong.

Uhm... so... tell me... what exactly about the Bible was proven to be true then, eh? What in 'da big book fo fools' is trrrrrrrrue?

People with ALOT more common sene then you have belived in god- Descartes, Elvis, Einstien, Aquinas......

You are one funny guy, CCR - you don't mind if I call you CCR, right? But hell yeah, you are one funny guy! You should join the circus or something. Sure dude, Elvis had a lot more common sense than I have. He ate 20 fucking cheeseburgers a day while using prescription drugs and snorting daily doses of toxic waste! Hell yeah, wooooooehooooooooe, praise the lord, the guy is a gddmn saint!

God is an all powerful, unknowable being.

Shit man, you stop it now, you hear me... this is just too much... "all powerful, unknowable being"... hmpf... unknowable...

And you are wrong about intersteller travel. Hypothetically quantum travel is possible, though it could be argued that that would be another dimension's somewhere else.

You know what I find amazing in you religious zealots? The capability to come up with all this virtual, unknowable, hypothetical crinkum-crankum of yours and the fact that you actually expect others to believe it. From what you wrote on quantum travel I have a very *very* strong feeling that you haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about, old boy.

Go back to the Bible and reread the parts about 'ignorance'.

you're avoiding one of Blade's statements (whether he made it conciously or not)

Yeah, and what the fuck is that all about anyway, whether he made it consciously or not? What do you think I am anyway? Just because all these capitalist lefties around here are spreading the new and hyped word doesn't mean they make much sense. They're parrots. Puppets on a string. I've got the original ideas around here. 8)

Rest assured: I'm already training the penguins... Bwahahahaha!

 

[EyeMaster7]

Rest assured: I'm already training the penguins... Bwahahahaha!

Dude. That small font piss me off. It is worst then that people who

0111011101110010011010010111010001100101001000000111001101110100011101010111000001101001011001000010000001110100011010000110100101101110011001110111001100100000011010010110111000100000011000100110100101101110011000010111001001111001

 

[John Uskglass]

I'm Belgian.
And my 76-year-old grandmother could win a fight from me.

But imagine peole who think like yourself, but are 6'5 disgrunteled punks.

Uhm... so... tell me... what exactly about the Bible was proven to be true then, eh? What in 'da big book fo fools' is trrrrrrrrue?

History, for instance. In the mid 19th century, many people in archeological studies thought that several civilizations the Bible makes referances too- the Hittites, for instance- did not exsist. They where wrong. Also, the blief that Jesus was a composite or all together fictional character is quite wrong, as we have records of his followers going up to almost his death.

You are one funny guy, CCR - you don't mind if I call you CCR, right? But hell yeah, you are one funny guy! You should join the circus or something. Sure dude, Elvis had a lot more common sense than I have. He ate 20 fucking cheeseburgers a day while using prescription drugs and snorting daily doses of toxic waste! Hell yeah, wooooooehooooooooe, praise the lord, the guy is a gddmn saint!

I was kind of being sarcastic about that. But alot more intellegent people with alot more "life expiriance" belive in God.

Shit man, you stop it now, you hear me... this is just too much... "all powerful, unknowable being"... hmpf... unknowable...

Depends on theschool of thought. But most Christians, and all Muslims belive that God is not some big, more powerful Zeus.

You know what I find amazing in you religious zealots? The capability to come up with all this virtual, unknowable, hypothetical crinkum-crankum of yours and the fact that you actually expect others to believe it. From what you wrote on quantum travel I have a very *very* strong feeling that you haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about, old boy.

What? It is possible to put anything anywhere instantly. It just requires about as much energy as some galaxies and a hell of a lot of computing power.

While I do not agree with Blade's...ahm...unique form of thinking, I fail to see how his absolute moral justification is any worse than that of a Christian, muslim or Jew.

Entirely accurate. But as I have said, athiests are as guilty of this as anybody, and more guilty in some cases.