Where is the geographical location of the Sierra Madre Casino?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by JustAShcookius, Nov 24, 2020.

  1. Ugly Kid

    Ugly Kid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    173
    May 9, 2018
    It's pretty commonly known that a barrage of nukes around the world would deplete the ozone layer quite a bit and cause a ton of global warming
     
  2. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    286
    Mar 9, 2017
    That's not how ozone works, that's not how global warming works, that's not how small f fallout works, and common knowledge is often very very wrong and no substitute for actual research, and not aping the STUPIDEST parts of the Mad Max sequels. What you're trying to defend is called artistic license and it's indefensible when it's used to be absolutely flippant with known facts for the sake of shoddy tropes.
     
  3. Ugly Kid

    Ugly Kid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    173
    May 9, 2018
    Ok
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  4. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  5. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    In what way is it dishonest? Fallout is clear from the get go that it is pulp fiction and operates on different rules. If you're looking for the realistic effects of nuclear radiation, play a different series. There's nothing "dishonest" with that considering there's never any illusion that Fallout is meant to be a realistic depiction of a post-nuclear America.

    Avellone discusses the matter in the FO Bible in a discussion over the reality of nuclear winter.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  6. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    286
    Mar 9, 2017
    Yes, it is DISHONEST. And we know this because Asmamov, another "pulp" sci fi writer did this concept in the Gods themselves
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Themselves

    Whole premise of this story is what a universe would have to look like in order for the impossible in our universe isotope Plutonium-186 to exist. And he's thorough and consistent about it. It is one thing go into speculative science, such as using FEV as a cover for supermutants and ghouls in the first Fallout (ie Genetic Engineering is the new Nuke), then to go to I love Nuclear Power trope which was known as totally false by the time of the first Fallout.

    See, Fallout, the first fallout LOOKS like a pulpy B movie sendup, but it's beauty is that it's not. It's actually pretty smart, brilliant for a game that started out as a time-traveling dinosaur game. They did their homework....unlike almost every other Fallout game. Every outlandish trope of the first game was laboriously justified, and that's what made me a fan for life.

    So no, you don't get to do whatever you want in an artistic piece. In this case, the ignorance of one generation becomes the outright lies of another. You wouldn't use pulp conventions to defend women being weaker misogyny or biological racism. And yes these are all in the same category because moral offensive and tastes are not the issue; the issue is factual correctness and the due diligence a creator owes his audience. If you want to reintroduce something like say, ray guns, you're gonna need a whole lot of actual science theoretical engineering to justify it as a desired effect even if it's not the most efficient.

    Pulp rules don't excuse disregarding well known laws of nature. If you want effects like that, well, at the very least you've got to be more creative and do a lot more research than that.

    EDIT: Avellone's a pissant, and he's ruined Fallout more than Emil and Todd ever will no matter how long they hold the license. Ulysses and the whole of Lonesome Road, also the letting go theme of Dead Money shows Avellone, who was thankfully not one whit involved in Fallout 1 has never understood Fallout. Fallout 3 didn't jump the shark, the Fallout Bible was the death knell of the franchise, and it continues to be a mortal wound into 76, even though it's not canon.
     
  7. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    Nah, people do get to do whatever they want regarding rules for a fictional story. It's on you as to how stringent you feel like being for whatever reason you feel the need to be that way about a fictional work. Sometimes ignoring factual correctness in fiction is the point as it can open up new possibilities. Also, I don't think there is any due diligence owed to an audience regarding feasible fictional rules that don't claim to be scientifically accurate, or whatever. That's just a weird attitude. It may make something more enjoyable if there is a lot of thought put into it, but it isn't a prerequisite that must be followed to be considered good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  8. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    Fictional settings don't need to obey the rules of the real world, they need to obey the rules they themselves set up. What if radiation works differently in the Fallout setting compared to the real world? That's how it is because the Fallout setting set it up as such and trying to bring real world rules into them is going against that.

    Fucking hilarious. Thank for the big burst of laughing you just gave me.

    Fallout 3 didn't just jumped the shark, it went into the stratosphere and did a million acrobatics while doing it before it even finish jumping over the shark.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  9. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    They do have a point though with Ulysses and Lonesome Road. That shit was terrible. Ulysses was poorly developed and was obviously supposed to be, like, totally cool bro. He had monologues that gave my flashbacks to sitting through mass with my grandmother as a child. It just keeps going and going.....
    Not to mention the dweller swarm creatures were generic as hell and need to be officially retconned forever.

    Lonesome Road didn't actually happen. It was just a bad peyote trip the courier went on after passing out in the sun.
     
  10. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    Lonesome Road and Ulysses are still far better written than the regurgitated vomit the Bethesda Fallouts pass off as writing and characters.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  11. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  12. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    I wonder if they know their little spot is in a video game to a tee. Are they flattered? Do they think you're a wacky youngster if you visit for that reason?
     
  13. JustAShcookius

    JustAShcookius It Wandered In From the Wastes

    119
    Sep 4, 2020
    tenor.gif
    tenor (1).gif
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  14. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    You're right man, Fallout 1 is a stringent work of speculative fiction that only operates within the bounds of science. Giant vats of glowing green goop that turn you into a hlking super-man with quad helix DNA? Totally realistic and well thought out since a computer babled something about 'ion sheaths.' Ghouls, totally realistic, not at all a purely cool and thematic idea with no grounding in reality. Man portable laser rifles or plasma guns, or fusion cells the size of a battery, these are nothing short of just around the corner.

    You don't have no point, putting some thought into these things is good to make the world cohesive, but the notion that Fallout is an ultra realistic setting disguised as a pulp one is just laughable.

    There is a place for ultra-stringent speculative fiction, and I like quite a bit of it, but there is no inherent superiority to it.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  15. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    286
    Mar 9, 2017
    OK, I think this is fair enough I have to bring out the Tvtropes Moh's Scale of Sci Fi Hardness
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness

    Fallout has always looked on the surface to be a Class 2, World of Pheboneum (Plot justifying Bullshit) or Call 1 (Science in Name Only), and I get that.

    My Gripe is that Fallout 1 is written in such a way that, smartly, that it's possible to see it as had as a class 5 (but more realistically it might be a class 4), speculative science, pretty hard based on the conceit that the pre-war world were MASTER engineers and many of the B-movie effects we see, supermutants, regular mutants, and the energy weapons, are results not to alternative rules of reality but of cultural preferences. It will ALWAYS be more efficient to guns that shoot than a laser that burns, but they built lasers because they wanted to, and they built their lasers specifically to slice at a distance BECAUSE THEY COULD. And that was Fallout 1's real charm.

    You can DO this stuff already, just not efficiently, lasers can cut flesh just like that, just not optimally under our technology. But the prewar people figured it out, cause they WANTED it that way.

    Every other Fallout falls further down the rabbit holw to Class 2, with loads of perpetual motion monsters (Ghost people, Mr. Keller sealed up for 200 years in the NG armory), instant ghoulification of NCR population of Searchlight from a pre-war radioactive fuel rod. Note I'm not counting the clearly supernatural stuff like the Cabots or Anna's Ghost.

    I'm not saying Fallout was always super smart about subverting expectations and reimagining tropes, but it did punch way about its weight in the first game and it got smarter with its tropes, which it did laterally in New Vegas (Western, not sci-fi or post-apocalypse) than it would still be a master class. But it got dumber, more by the book, more to expectations, less thoughtful, less deconstructive, less scientific.
     
  16. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    Actually taking TVTropes seriously is completely ridiculous to me. Here's a site that makes up bullshit and people put in their minds to take it seriously.
     
  17. Charwo

    Charwo Still Mildly Glowing

    286
    Mar 9, 2017
    Made up Bullshit?
    Technically so is the Metric system, Latin, and colors. Just because there are mind creations, doesn't detract from their utility, and in this case, TVtropes, even if it is the equivalent of a caveman's axehead, is a start to discuss what I'm getting at. SImple dismissal here is just an appeal to authority fallacy. I'm sure in any case you've heard the term fard and soft sci fi before? It definitely predates Tvtropes, and my claim is that Fallout 1 is a lot harder sci fi than the rest of the Fallout series, a gripe I've had since 1999, but was able to ignore until 2012, when I finally played Fallout 3.
     
  18. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    No, because those weren't invented by a random site on the internet. And they have an actual utility, unlike a site that makes up crap, useless crap mind you.

    It's absolutely ridiculous to take a site seriously that makes up crap to justify how certain things are written, boxing things into narrow groups. That's not how any of that works and it's much more complicated than some made up rules.

    This is not the first time someone here unironically started to use terms from that site, and that's the quickest to not take your argument seriously.
     
  19. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    Maybe Fallout is less convincing in New Vegas than previous titles in regards to it's portrayal of technology? I don't think it is to such a degree that it matters in NV though. Enjoying fictional stories like this always requires some level of suspension of disbelief. Maybe you are just looking into too hard?
     
  20. Fogom

    Fogom First time out of the vault

    21
    Jul 5, 2021
    The Divide specifically blocks the NCR from going north along 127 to "get around the mountains;" straight from Joshua. Thus, it can not be Pahrump as it is not along 127.

    Big MT is south of the Divide. This is established by both the particulars of Ulysses' journey and by terminals at Big MT. Possibly to the southeast but at least somewhere south of (and nearby to) The Divide.

    Death Valley is specifically identified as a separate area from both The Divide and Big MT; Joshua once more

    All 3 (Death Valley, The Divide, and Big MT) are all impediments to the NCR reaching New Vegas from a more northernly angle then they currently do (via 15 or 95).

    Sierra Madre is likely due east near the Grand Canyon but admittedly there is nothing concrete to confirm that.