Who is really to blame for the Holocaust?
- Thread starter John Uskglass
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Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
A fewer amount of Jews killed during the Holocaust is neither.
While I don't doubt the possibility of the Zionists blowing the Holocaust out of proportion, it still happened.
While I don't doubt the possibility of the Zionists blowing the Holocaust out of proportion, it still happened.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Among the most idiotic statement to come out of our bastard cousin to the north since Brian Adams faded in popularity.
Saying that few Jews died during the holocaust is minimizing it's effect and calling the jews liars; thus it's anti-Jewish and anti-semetic.
You have no idea what you are talking about, the two are intamitely related.
Not necessarily, depends how it's worded. Plus, you can correct someone without calling them a liar. (Note I don't agree with holocaust deniers, but I really don't know enough about the holocaust to accurately quote figures, nor do most people) EDIT - Just re-read this, if someone says that "few" (as in not many) Jews were killed, you are right, but if someone says "Fewer" then my point holds.ConstipatedCraprunner said:
I agree with Montez, youre blowing this out of proportion. There are a fair number of nutjobs in any country, America included. You bringing attention to them just helps their cause.
Based on one German all Euros (sic) suck?CCR said:
Based on that statement, I could conclude that all Americans share the same sentiments as Bush. And Moore. It just doesn't work like that.
Its pretty hard to blow the Holocaust out of proportion. Whole aspects of Nazi policy at home and abroad were dedicated at slaughtering Jews (look at some of the causes of their defeat in Russia - many attribute some of it to focusing on funneling Jews to Aushwitz rather than strengthening troop deployments). I think these kinda revisionist claims sprout from two things. First, there is a wave of anti-Israeli sentiment sweeping the globe. This has resulted in various antisemetic racist attacks in several parts of the globe (most noticably France from what Ive read) and may be lending credence to this revisionist look at the Holocaust. Another thing is war guilt. Germans, and others, have had a hard time dealing with their past. This is the same kinda dynamic as the Catholic coming out and trying to downplay the Inquisition.
On a related note, I strongly recommend the graphic novel Maus. its a great read.
On a related note, I strongly recommend the graphic novel Maus. its a great read.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Believing that the Jews do not deserve a homeland does not necessarily mean that one is anti-Jewish. Its like believing that Baptists should have a nation to call their own.
Of course, Baptists aren't being persecuted by the government, or the people (unless they wake me up at 5 in the morning on a Sunday again), like the Jews were in just about every country on the face of the earth, that doesn't mean that a Jewish nation is the answer.
I never claimed that the holocaust didn’t happen. It did.
I have simply stated that there are some facts that suggest that much smaller number of Jews were actually killed during WW2.
There are no accurate numbers on how many Jews were actually killed. The Nazis destroyed most of the documents that contained figures and information at the end of the war.
No one will ever know for sure what was the exact number of Jews that were killed, so some people claim that the number is roughly around 6 million, and some claim that’s its less then that.
Jews use the holocaust excuse on every possible occasion to justify their own immorality, and conduct of things (we didn’t slaughter the Palestinians, we simply defend our own people that the holocaust won’t happen again. We don’t put them in ghettoes, deny them of medical assistance and threat them as sub humans, we are unable to, because of the holocaust)
Those statements tend to minimize its impact of the holocaust and cause more and more people to doubt if it really happened as the Jews claim it did.
I have simply stated that there are some facts that suggest that much smaller number of Jews were actually killed during WW2.
There are no accurate numbers on how many Jews were actually killed. The Nazis destroyed most of the documents that contained figures and information at the end of the war.
No one will ever know for sure what was the exact number of Jews that were killed, so some people claim that the number is roughly around 6 million, and some claim that’s its less then that.
Jews use the holocaust excuse on every possible occasion to justify their own immorality, and conduct of things (we didn’t slaughter the Palestinians, we simply defend our own people that the holocaust won’t happen again. We don’t put them in ghettoes, deny them of medical assistance and threat them as sub humans, we are unable to, because of the holocaust)
Those statements tend to minimize its impact of the holocaust and cause more and more people to doubt if it really happened as the Jews claim it did.
Let's see, according to Europe: A History, the following numbers are available:
Country Minimum Maximum
Poland 2.35 mill 3 mill
USSR 1.5 mill 2 mill
Ger/Aus 218K 240K
Hungary 200K 300K
Romania 200K 300K
Holland 104K 110K
Czechosl. 90K 95K
France 60K 65K
Greece 57K 60K
Yugoslav 55K 60K
Belgium 25K 28K
Italy 8.5K 9.5K
Luxemb. 2.8K 3K
Norway 700 1000
Denmark <100 1000
Totals 4.871 Mill 6.2715 Mill
Average c. 5.5713 Mill
Right. Those are the low and high realistic estimates. It has been shown that the Jewish estimates (as well as the Russian dead claims) were most probably too high, but saying that only about a million died is absolutely preposterous.
PS: CCR, you should stop going off at everyone slayin the slightest bad thing about Jews as "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Semite". That sounds like the old PS screaming "anti-American" at every little argument.
Hello everybody.
I stumbled upon this thread as I was searching for the Gore Patch, and a general patch for my German FO2 version. So, I was kinda intrigued by this discussion. I'm not really fond of prejudice, because I think it only blindfolds our consiciousness and limits our perception of the world and people in general. With that in mind, and seeing that not one of you is able to speak German (I don't blame you, it's a hard tongue), I registiered to tell you a bit more.
People, the thing is, Der Spiegel does not ONCE in the entire article approve this book. In fact, it is very much ripping it a new one, and more so, every other piece of printed story mentioned in the article. It is highly satirical, almost cynical, about the trend to overly emphatisize the "shocking new discoveries", or the "never before released" informations. It uncovers the screaming front cover and the so-called critics as nothing more than marketing schemes done in bad taste, as what we Germans call "Marktschreierei"; and it hits back hard. Take this example about "Amerika und der Holocaust":
Which one can translate in about this:
Eurgh. My translation skills ain't what they used to be, so sorry for any mistakes in grammar etc.
Anyway, don't be fooled - Germans still know that the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust. Don't hate us as a nation because some asshats who need their dicks cut off still think Hitler was a cool guy.
Thank you, and Goodnight.
P.S.: Oh, SpellCheck! Nice!
I stumbled upon this thread as I was searching for the Gore Patch, and a general patch for my German FO2 version. So, I was kinda intrigued by this discussion. I'm not really fond of prejudice, because I think it only blindfolds our consiciousness and limits our perception of the world and people in general. With that in mind, and seeing that not one of you is able to speak German (I don't blame you, it's a hard tongue), I registiered to tell you a bit more.
People, the thing is, Der Spiegel does not ONCE in the entire article approve this book. In fact, it is very much ripping it a new one, and more so, every other piece of printed story mentioned in the article. It is highly satirical, almost cynical, about the trend to overly emphatisize the "shocking new discoveries", or the "never before released" informations. It uncovers the screaming front cover and the so-called critics as nothing more than marketing schemes done in bad taste, as what we Germans call "Marktschreierei"; and it hits back hard. Take this example about "Amerika und der Holocaust":
Which one can translate in about this:
Eurgh. My translation skills ain't what they used to be, so sorry for any mistakes in grammar etc.
Anyway, don't be fooled - Germans still know that the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust. Don't hate us as a nation because some asshats who need their dicks cut off still think Hitler was a cool guy.
Thank you, and Goodnight.
P.S.: Oh, SpellCheck! Nice!
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
I did'nt say Spiegel aproved of it. I know it ripped it a new one. I just thought this stuff was still illegal?
Now, the state of Isreal does alot of things wrong. Hell, one could argue that it should'nt exsist. But saying barley any Jews died in the holocaust or there was some huge conspiricy so that no Jews died on 9/11 (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm) is as anti -semetic as Marlon Brando on Larry King.
I think it's absurd that anti-Zionism just happened to sprout out of the same areas that where most fervent in anti-Semetism and that saying the Jews lied about the number of people killed is any diffirent then saying that the holocaust did'nt happen at all. It's all shades of anti-Semetism.
Now, the state of Isreal does alot of things wrong. Hell, one could argue that it should'nt exsist. But saying barley any Jews died in the holocaust or there was some huge conspiricy so that no Jews died on 9/11 (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm) is as anti -semetic as Marlon Brando on Larry King.
Sander, I didn’t say that only a million had been killed.
I said that according to some estimation, some people are claming that a lesser number of Jews have been killed, and that some even claim that the total number is roughly around a million. While I do think that the number is smaller then 6Mil, I it is definitely larger then one million.
No one will ever know the exact number since there are no documents available to prove it.
As for you Pali,
No one is blaming the Germans anymore, what is done is done. Lets leave it in the past.
I myself lost a considerable number of family members during WW2 like many other Europeans, but you don’t see me running around and bitching about it like some people, do you
War sucks, 'nuff said.
I said that according to some estimation, some people are claming that a lesser number of Jews have been killed, and that some even claim that the total number is roughly around a million. While I do think that the number is smaller then 6Mil, I it is definitely larger then one million.
No one will ever know the exact number since there are no documents available to prove it.
As for you Pali,
No one is blaming the Germans anymore, what is done is done. Lets leave it in the past.
I myself lost a considerable number of family members during WW2 like many other Europeans, but you don’t see me running around and bitching about it like some people, do you
War sucks, 'nuff said.
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
If no court rules it against the Grundgesetz, it ain't illegal.
The thing is, book like this fall into a really gray area. If the researches are true, and they don't write anything that resembles an inflammatory campaign, they're safe. They have no legal consequences to face as long as they say: "Yeah, we were responsible, too!"
Anyway, what's still illegal are Nazi symbols of any kind - swastikas, SS runes etc. - if they aren't shown for scientific or documentary purpose.
Sovz said:
Yeah, I know. Some do, though, and that's kinda sad. 'Cause, you know, as I said - misconceptions about anyone or anything are a waste of human value and greatness.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Ah. That's sensible I suppose.
Because you yourself have poored over the millions of records of the Nazi death machine?
These are the Nazis we are talking about, not the Rwandans, the Soviets or the Turks. They documented how many times they're dogs took shits. There are more then enough documents to stick more holes in you're rascist notion then in the walls of a bathroom in a San Francisco bar.
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
You fool. I'm Jewish, and I'm anti-zionistic.
And you know why? Because I'm not a racist.
Zionism=racism.
Think about it. They claim to have the right to a country because they're a seperate race.
Hence: racism. Like living together with other races isn't good enough for them.
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
CCR, I’ve studied this thing for a longer period of time then you did.
The only available document that discusses the elimination of the Jews is the Wannsee accord, back in 1942.
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Jesus dude, what are you doing in Europe? Belgium is'nt France, but seriously....
There's a point there, I admit it. However, it's really, really old Rascism that goes all the way back to when they where in the deserts of modern Iraq.
It's also reflexive. Zionism was bourne out of anti-semetism, not the other way around. Thus one feeds the other. It's like the NOI, ironically.
It's more complex then that. The Palestinians now are, if anything, alot more rascist.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
No, they are'nt, that's sillly. That's like arguing that German on Polish rascism is impossible because they're both Indo-European.
The Jews speak Yiddish as often as Hebrew and they're both very distinct languages from Arabic, they're not even that closely related in terms of Semetic languages, and culturally they've grown up in completely diffirent situations in many cases on completely diffirent parts of the world.
Rascsim by any other name is still detestable. By that definition Nazi rascism is okay because it was a product of Weimer Germany.