Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

[Crni Vuk]

Ok, that would be the opposite of what YOU are advocating Crni as you have some flawed ass dream where apparently, EVERYONE is special and important and no matter how useless they ACTUALLY ARE, they are not.

Yes, you're right. For me no human beeing is useless. Definetly not if they're just playing vidya games all day and smoke weed. I mean if that is all it takes to make someone 'useless' in your eyes. I mean you're not going to make such a person 'more' usefull by throwing him/her in a misserable situation.

Maybe because the poor are making stupid ass decisions or people generally being trifling and stupid.
.

Recent studies on the subject of poverty tells us that people make bad decisions because they are poor. Throw wealthy people in the same situation and it is extremely likey they will make the same decisions.

Remember our past discussions Crni, try not to lump EVERY SINGLE poor person as someone who just had shitty luck

I am not. Quite the opposite, I see everyone as an individual with his own history and reasons for his situation and why he/she is in there. I never said I want to pay someones gambling debts or buying drugs for them. I just don't want to make the situation of someone who's addicted to drugs or gambling worse, by taking his income away or giving them aditional stress. Why aren't you worried about lazy wealthy people? Or the wealthy life style. Have you seen someone who's smoking pot and playing video games all day flying to Africa and shooting animals that are listed as vulnerable? I havn't.

However, we are also at the same time talking about millions of americans here. Did you know that around 60% of Americans have less than 1000$ on their bank account? They are literaly one major missfortune away from poverty. A car accident, some sickness, loosing their job beacuse their company close down. You name it. All bad choices I guess. 60% of the Americans made bad choices I guess.

Not only that, I do not mind helping those who were dealt a bad hand by fate as long as they are good peopl

There is no reilable and good way to make such a decisions and I doubt anyone is qualified to do it anyway. What makes a good person? Your standard? Or mine? We alrady know that we have different views here. Hell, we even decide to treat prisoners as human beeings, you know? And why are we doing it? Because torture is considered a crime in our socities, regafdless if the victim is a 'good' or 'bad' person. This is completely arbitrey. Not to mention that you would certainly also hit people that have nothing to do with it, like the child of a 'bad' mother for example. Think about what kind of society that would be.

What I will NOT tolerate is this stupid idea where everyone has to be treated like a baby and that all treatment help should come with no strings attached.

I am not treating anyone like a baby here. I am just giving everyone equal opportunity to find out what his potential is. You, me, even that drug addict that's playing Pokemon all day on his Wii or what ever. Everyone has potential. You would be surprised what those people can achieve, if all you do is to believe in them. I experienced it, since I wokred for quite a few years with the people you deem as 'useless'. We all have a history and reason to act the way we do. The thing I can say, is that those people, often young people, are already under immense stress and preasure, hence why they give up and don't give a fuck. Imagine what happens if you increase the preasure. Some can become quite destructive and even criminals.

The only advice I can give you is, to work with those people, just go to them and ask them why they act like that, but don't judge them, just try to listen. You can learn something from everyone.

 

[GonZo_626]

Yes, you're right. For me no human beeing is useless. Definetly not if they're just playing vidya games all day and smoke weed. I mean if that is all it takes to make someone 'useless' in your eyes. I mean you're not going to make such a person 'more' usefull by throwing him/her in a misserable situation.


Recent studies on the subject of poverty tells us that people make bad decisions because they are poor. Throw wealthy people in the same situation and it is extremely likey they will make the same decisions.


I am not. Quite the opposite, I see everyone as an individual with his own history and reasons for his situation and why he/she is in there. I never said I want to pay someones gambling debts or buying drugs for them. I just don't want to make the situation of someone who's addicted to drugs or gambling worse, by taking his income away or giving them aditional stress. Why aren't you worried about lazy wealthy people? Or the wealthy life style. Have you seen someone who's smoking pot and playing video games all day flying to Africa and shooting animals that are listed as vulnerable? I havn't.

However, we are also at the same time talking about millions of americans here. Did you know that around 60% of Americans have less than 1000$ on their bank account? They are literaly one major missfortune away from poverty. A car accident, some sickness, loosing their job beacuse their company close down. You name it. All bad choices I guess. 60% of the Americans made bad choices I guess.


There is no reilable and good way to make such a decisions and I doubt anyone is qualified to do it anyway. What makes a good person? Your standard? Or mine? We alrady know that we have different views here. Hell, we even decide to treat prisoners as human beeings, you know? And why are we doing it? Because torture is considered a crime in our socities, regafdless if the victim is a 'good' or 'bad' person. This is completely arbitrey. Not to mention that you would certainly also hit people that have nothing to do with it, like the child of a 'bad' mother for example. Think about what kind of society that would be.


I am not treating anyone like a baby here. I am just giving everyone equal opportunity to find out what his potential is. You, me, even that drug addict that's playing Pokemon all day on his Wii or what ever. Everyone has potential. You would be surprised what those people can achieve, if all you do is to believe in them. I experienced it, since I wokred for quite a few years with the people you deem as 'useless'. We all have a history and reason to act the way we do. The thing I can say, is that those people, often young people, are already under immense stress and preasure, hence why they give up and don't give a fuck. Imagine what happens if you increase the preasure. Some can become quite destructive and even criminals.

The only advice I can give you is, to work with those people, just go to them and ask them why they act like that, but don't judge them, just try to listen. You can learn something from everyone.

Hahaha this is funny. That lazy ass should get off his videogame system, put the drugs down and find a job. I will say this from my own personal experience.

-I only have a high school education
-I smoke weed every day (medical cannabis patient)
-I play video games on my $3000 computer that I paid for
-I have a job making almost $100000 a year working in engineering
-I have a family (wife and 2 kids)
-I have a house with a mortgage
-My bills get paid
-I am technically a millennial (when taking those stupid social tests that place your attitude within a generational class I come out with the same values as someone who would have fought in WW2)

I am literally proof every one of those lazy ass could and should do better. It did not take more then 1 month for me to figure out I now need to work harder then those who didn't slack off in high school to further myself. I had no government help and I have watched my friends from that time continue to blame a variety of different things that in the end are not the problem. That person themselves is the problem, not society, not the government, and not capitalism. They make the choices that keep them there and most of the time they keep trying to take that lazy ass easy path instead of buckling down doing the hard work that will get them ahead. They themselves are the only one who can fix there problem. So fuck that, society does not hold them back, they hold themselves back. And I don't care that you have worked with these people making you think you know there lives. I was one of them, and in a way still am, but I am responsible for myself and my family. Not society, not the guberment, and not anybody but themselves.

 

[DarkCorp]

'more' usefull by throwing him/her in a misserable situation.

If he doesn't have anything to worry about and is able to play games and smoke weed all day, he is pretty well off already. I certainly do not need to give him MORE money than the benefits he already is probably getting.

Recent studies on the subject of poverty tells us that people make bad decisions because they are poor.

In a thread some time ago, we talked about a girl on government assistance who was bitching because she couldn't get all her shit 'organic'. Buying organic shit, when one cannot afford it, is FUCKING STUPID. She CAN buy NORMAL food, she is fucking stupid to think she DESERVES organic and goes out and wastes MORE money by buying organic. Poverty isn't making her stupid, she IS fucking STUPID. Buying rims instead of saving money for a rainy day is STUPID.

wealthy people? Or the wealthy life style. Have you seen someone who's smoking pot and playing video games all day flying to Africa and shooting animals that are listed as vulnerable? I havn't.

You mean the same PRODUCTIVE guy who does this over the WEEKEND compared to the USELESS jackass that does it EVERYDAY? bad comparison brother.

60% of Americans have less than 1000$ on their bank account?

And like I said, if they had access to higher paying jobs that DIDN'T demand a college degree, they would have more money. Again, one of those examples where a lighter government touch beats a heavy handed government approach. We do not need massive amounts of free shit to fix this.

There is no reilable and good way to make such a decisions

But to take a page from your book, it doesn't mean we don't do a damn thing to fix it and adopt your no strings attached approach. I already told you anyone who is willing to work and reasonably intelligent and makes intelligent decisions is useful.

Everyone has potential

If they show it then ya. If all they do is play video games and smoke weed, with no other desire than to do only that, then they are by definition USELESS.

I am not treating anyone like a baby here

You are though because we treat CHILDREN and KIDS like that. We nurture them, encourage them to get an education or learn a trade. We teach them right and wrong. We teach them to WORK HARD. Anyone who HAS been taught these things and STILL decides not to adhere to the above rules is by definition, USELESS.

to work with those people, just go to them and ask them why they act like that, but don't judge them, just try to listen

In complete agreement here. But, if after we make efforts to do so, they CONTINUE to be trifling and make trouble, then they are USELESS and I WILL judge them.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Without any offense, but it's painfully obvious, that you havn't talked and worked enough with the people we're talking about. I was once in the same boat as you, but I had to adjust my views and face hard facts here. If you really want to help people, the methods you're proposing here, simply do not work. But I realise that I can not convince anyone here of his views. And that's fine.

I am literally proof every one of those lazy ass could and should do better.

What you're displaying here, is that you found a way of improving your situation. Why do you assume that everyone else is the same or even similar to you? I worked with troubled teeangers and children for several years, which I still continue and choose as my career path, I have a lot of experience working with social workers here.

You guys can believe this or not, but preasure and again I am talking from experience here, is a recipe for dissaster. What you're creating is a barrier, a selection process and not a situation where you actually try to understand, support and help people in their current state.

What you describe is a perfect example of selection bias. (...)Survivorship bias or survival bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility.

We are today in a lucky position, that we have years of resarch from psychologists and scientists working on this topic and the reality we have to face is, that sanctions and stigmatizing people, simply doesn't work.

A new report, built on the most extensive research yet, confirms what we knew: that sanctions don't work. Why is the focus on following the rules, not helping the vulnerable?
(...)
Universal Credit (UC) has been found to have a particularly high rate of sanctions as it’s rolled out across the country. Notably, today’s study found low-paid workers on UC—the so-called ‘deserving’ hard workers who are required to find more hours or face sanctions—in some cases actually preferred to sign off, and give up housing benefit and tax credits, rather than deal with jobcentre staff.


When people would prefer to skip meals rather than deal with the jobcentre, the concept of a safety net is on its knees.
(...)
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...in-to-work-so-why-does-the-cruel-system-exist

All you're ending up with is a dehumanizing system that hits millions of people with close to useless sanctions.

 

[GonZo_626]

Without any offense, but it's painfully obvious, that you havn't talked and worked enough with the people we're talking about. I was once in the same boat as you, but I had to adjust my views and face hard facts here. If you really want to help people, the methods you're proposing here, simply do not work. But I realise that I can not convince anyone here of his views. And that's fine.


What you're displaying here, is that you found a way of improving your situation. Why do you assume that everyone else is the same or even similar to you? I worked with troubled teeangers and children for several years, which I still continue and choose as my career path, I have a lot of experience working with social workers here.

You guys can believe this or not, but preasure and again I am talking from experience here, is a recipe for dissaster. What you're creating is a barrier, a selection process and not a situation where you actually try to understand, support and help people in their current state.

What you describe is a perfect example of selection bias. (...)Survivorship bias or survival bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility.

We are today in a lucky position, that we have years of resarch from psychologists and scientists working on this topic and the reality we have to face is, that sanctions and stigmatizing people, simply doesn't work.

A new report, built on the most extensive research yet, confirms what we knew: that sanctions don't work. Why is the focus on following the rules, not helping the vulnerable?
(...)
Universal Credit (UC) has been found to have a particularly high rate of sanctions as it’s rolled out across the country. Notably, today’s study found low-paid workers on UC—the so-called ‘deserving’ hard workers who are required to find more hours or face sanctions—in some cases actually preferred to sign off, and give up housing benefit and tax credits, rather than deal with jobcentre staff.


When people would prefer to skip meals rather than deal with the jobcentre, the concept of a safety net is on its knees.
(...)
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...in-to-work-so-why-does-the-cruel-system-exist

All you're ending up with is a dehumanizing system that hits millions of people with close to useless sanctions.

So because I found a way to break the cycle, I am the one who is wrong because some scientist who probably never suffered thinks that, FUCK THAT!!!! Maybe tell those lazy asses sitting around, you are going to have to do things that suck, you will now have to work twice as hard as everyone else, you will have to take a low-paying job and learn as you go and don't fuck up, and it will take time. I spent 2 years making $11-$15 an hour working 70+ hour weeks spending weeks and sometimes months without going home to learn, then I worked my way up, and kept working my way up. I climbed the ladder, telling those people its ok, there is a bias against you, you did nothing wrong and its societies fault is what holds them back. We as individuals make decisions and we live with the consequences in a free society, those that don't want to step up, be responsible for themselves are an anchor.

Oh you had kids at 15 and are having a hard time, I feel sorry for your kids because of your shitty choices, step up! Oh you like drugs, fuck off and step up! Maybe those scientist should figure out its them enabling these people with there crazy ass theories. Pressure may break rocks but it also makes diamonds!

 

[Crni Vuk]

So because I found a way to break the cycle, I am the one who is wrong because some scientist who probably never suffered thinks that, FUCK THAT!!!!

I think we're getting on the wrong foot here.

Look, I know how this sounds, but my intention was not to belittle or downplay your achievements in life and I am not saying, that you're wrong. I would say that we have to change our perspective, to look at the issue from a different angle. You said you're an engineer, right? Look it from the persepctive of how you would solve a complex problem. I want you to understand where I am coming from. What you achieved, is a good example of success, that it is possible, no doubts about it. What conclussion we draw from it however, is a whole different question. If every issue, had one and only one solution that always worked perfectly, we wouldn't even need engineers to figure out new ways to solve a problem. Every person in poverty, is a new problem on its own and the solution for someone else, is not necessarily the same one here.

All I am saying is, what you found, was a path that worked for you but it does not necessarily mean that it is a path that works for millions of people out there. There is no perfect guidline for success or some guide that tells you all the right choices, the internet is full of motivational courses and 'do what those 10 wealthiest people did!' videos on youtube. There are millions of people out there that made all the right coices and still ended up in cripling poverty for thousands of different reasons that are completely out of their controll. Obviously it should not stop people from trying to improve their situation! That's not my intention. I have spend quite a long time in a mental health instiution due to the experiences I made as a child and teenager at home - no need to get in details here, let us just say it wasn't pleasant. And this has cost years of my strength to recover and I am still carrying some scars from it. But I had the luck to know a few wonderfull people that supported me and still do. Now I try to spend time with people that made the same or similar experience with the intention to help them, troubled teenagers, refugees, people with addiction.

I am looking at this from the point of a social worker - which is the profession I am aiming at as my career. And a large part of that job is to find out, what you can do to help the person in his current sitution. The kind of method you and DarkCop propose, have been tried for a long time and they have yield very few if any succesfull results. Sanctions and preasure particularly with the intention to stigmatize poverty, seem not to be a good way of helping people to suceed in their life. Infact there is very strong evidence that tells us that it's probably counterproductive, causing depressions for example and actually keeping people in poverty. If it would be productive, I would actually support it! I am interested in results, not what feels right. And the evidence that's pilling up, is overwhelming. The pedagogy behind sanctions and stigmatisation, is similar to the idea behind the argument that you should punish children for bad grades, maybe even beat them. I mean we abolished that practise of physical disciplinary measures a long time ago in education and we certainly would not return to it, even if someone could bring up one example where it helped a child to get better grades.

We as individuals make decisions and we live with the consequences in a free society, those that don't want to step up, be responsible for themselves are an anchor.

The just-world hypothesis or just-world fallacy is the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person, to the end of all noble actions being eventually rewarded and all evil actions eventually punished. In other words, the just-world hypothesis is the tendency to attribute consequences to—or expect consequences as the result of—a universal force that restores moral balance. This belief generally implies the existence of cosmic justice, destiny, divine providence, desert, stability, or order, and has high potential to result in fallacy, especially when used to rationalize people's misfortune on the grounds that they "deserve" it.

(...)

Poverty
More recently, researchers have explored how people react to poverty through the lens of the just-world hypothesis. Strong belief in a just world is associated with blaming the poor, with weak belief in a just world associated with identifying external causes of poverty including world economic systems, war, and exploitation.

Oh you had kids at 15 and are having a hard time, I feel sorry for your kids because of your shitty choices, step up! Oh you like drugs, fuck off and step up! Maybe those scientist should figure out its them enabling these people with there crazy ass theories. Pressure may break rocks but it also makes diamonds!

Scientists actually did figure a lot of things out:


Swiss drug policy should serve as model: experts

GENEVA (Reuters) - Switzerland’s innovative policy of providing drug addicts with free methadone and clean needles has greatly reduced deaths while cutting crime rates and should serve as a global model, health experts said on Monday.

Countries whose drug policy remains focused on punishing offenders, including Russia and much of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, should learn from a Swiss strategy based on “harm reduction” that protects both users and communities, they said.
(...)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-serve-as-model-experts-idUSTRE69O3VI20101025

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

Pereira tackled the growing wave of addiction the only way he knew how: one patient at a time. A student in her 20s who still lived with her parents might have her family involved in her recovery; a middle-aged man, estranged from his wife and living on the street, faced different risks and needed a different kind of support. Pereira improvised, calling on institutions and individuals in the community to lend a hand.


In 2001, nearly two decades into Pereira’s accidental specialisation in addiction, Portugal became the first country to decriminalise the possession and consumption of all illicit substances. Rather than being arrested, those caught with a personal supply might be given a warning, a small fine, or told to appear before a local commission – a doctor, a lawyer and a social worker – about treatment, harm reduction, and the support services that were available to them.
(...)
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...licy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

The moment we stop stigmatizing and start to concentrate on the actuall cause and trying to understand the reasons, we actually come to a path where we look for solutions that are actually helping people.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

I guess that the idea is that, if you're effortlessly rich because of an idiot proof, self-perpetuating constant wealth generation scheme, inheritance or simply being related to another wealthy person, lucking out in a gold rush, abusing near or even directly criminal loopholes and such other exploits, and all at the detriment of others or even the world at large in some instances, at least you're doing something!

For a funny, gaming related instance, know how many cars were on the GSC Software (Developers of STALKER) company parking lot during the entire development of Shadow of Chernobyl? Four. Two normal, midrange ones, a second hand, and a Ferrari F4. How many employees? Around a hundred. Only "vital" team members were paid somewhat normally and regularly. But hey I'm sure that CEO had a lot of work, lugging his massive balls around.

Dark and Gonzo seem to have no other picture of poverty that the extreme one, when in truth, the biggest demographic in it, or better put, in the very verge of it when it comes to most of our countries, is the one which is just barely making by, with nothing else to do than slaving away in a dead end with a shit job and getting screwed over here and there every time there's a welfare cut, affects them for like a year, then is quickly restored once people realized thousands of people had no guarantee of electric power or water in their provided homes. But in the other side, nothing but philanthropes. Mmm.

 

[DarkCorp]

idiot proof,

There are LEVELS of stupidity. I forgot where I put my keys is different than I robbed a store. Or, someone wasting $20 compared to wasting $1000. Nobody is idiot proof, don't be obtuse man.

self-perpetuating constant wealth generation scheme, inheritance or simply being related to another wealthy person

No family STARTS out rich. One generation starts it and SUCCESSIVE generations BUILD on it. You do know some people SQUANDER their inherited wealth right?

lucking out in a gold rush

You have to be PART of the gold rush in the first place. Guess I can count weed boy out because he can't even be bothered to do any hard work, or even leave the house. Also, plenty either died or went broke because they weren't able to find gold for any amount of reason. They took a RISK. But again, not weed boy. Weed boy NEVER takes risks.

at least you're doing something!

Besides committing crimes or doing MONUMENTALLY stupid things, YEAH. People, even Marx, generally state that you must WORK, AKA be PRODUCTIVE, to eat. It is either that or go fuck yourself.

Only "vital" team members were paid somewhat normally and regularly.

And where have I ever advocated that people shouldn't be rewarded for their hard work? Please, show me? If anything, I have been advocating that people NEED to be productive, AKA NOT be useless. I have been saying hard work should be REWARDED, not PUNISHED, by sky high taxes for USELESS people.

I'm sure that CEO had a lot of work, lugging his massive balls around.

I'm sure the CEO is the one putting in the largest amount of risk in investment. Even if that wasn't the case, he still has to be the one who makes the hard decisions. When the shit hits the fan, the programmers aren't being blamed, the fucking board of directors are. The board in turn, blames the CEO, President, etc, etc.

just barely making by,

For gods sake AGAIN, do you read what I post?? I have posted many examples of how we should try to fix things like increasing access to better paying jobs.

Arnust seems to be dead set on perpetuating his 'anyone who is successful must be a fucking shithead and have his wealth appropriated by the state". According to him, everyone should be equally fucking poor or just mediocre because, 'success is BAD'.

And I offer a reply already.

Clearly, by your quotes above, you have a serious hatred for successful people and believe that people can only create wealth by being given it or by being evil. Work, taking risks, making good financial decisions, keeping it in the family and building on it, having the foresight to see an opportunity for what it is? Naw, fuck that jazz.

Crni

I understand and was the first to say not everybody can get rich. I am FOR a system where the government takes care of those who, for NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, cannot take care of themselves. I am FOR rehab facilities and better mental health. These thing ARE important. Like you said, nobody is perfect. But AGAIN, you will never get me to agree that assistance should be no strings attached. To me, that will FOREVER be monumentally stupid.

Government assistance also has to be REALISTIC and like I proved with the Bernie free college link, nobody can have EVERYTHING free. 2/3rds of Bernies wallstreet tax was used for free tuition and STILL, it wasn't enough. Now imagine lumping in things like free healthcare for EVERYONE, UBI, child care, maternity leave, etc ,etc.

I mean, maybe one day we can actually have replicators but until that point, people will have to temper their expectations.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

For gods sake AGAIN, do you read what I post?? I have posted many examples of how we should try to fix things like increasing access to better paying jobs.

Arnust seems to be dead set on perpetuating his 'anyone who is successful must be a fucking shithead and have his wealth appropriated by the state". According to him, everyone should be equally fucking poor or just mediocre because, 'success is BAD'.

And I offer a reply already.

Clearly, by your quotes above, you have a serious hatred for successful people and believe that people can only create wealth by being given it or by being evil. Work, taking risks, making good financial decisions, keeping it in the family and building on it, having the foresight to see an opportunity for what it is? Naw, fuck that jazz.

You seem to think I'm talking about people that are anywhere near below the millionaire mark. I'm really not, even if can be as full of crooks as it can be above. Naturally it's born from the fantasy of you or me ever becoming one of them in or above the mark, just with "good decisions", like it's a management sim game, so naturally you want to protect the interests of those who exploit you because hey maybe I'll get my turn someday! I'm honestly not sure how can you see at people increasing their net value anywhere from 5 to 100 million every fucking day and say "you know, better with them", when there's essentially no completely ethical way of getting there, let alone staying there. When you can solve world hunger *by yourself* and still be a billionaire, I can't do anything but assume you're a psychopath.

I'm sure the CEO is the one putting in the largest amount of risk in investment. Even if that wasn't the case, he still has to be the one who makes the hard decisions. When the shit hits the fan, the programmers aren't being blamed, the fucking board of directors are. The board in turn, blames the CEO, President, etc, etc.

Yeah, and then everyone's fired and they fuck off to the next investment. As in, literally what happened after that, and he could even sue some of the fleeing devs for plagiarism of STALKER when they were making Metro. That consumers get pissy matters absolutely nothing to them or their reputation.

You have to be PART of the gold rush in the first place. Guess I can count weed boy out because he can't even be bothered to do any hard work, or even leave the house. Also, plenty either died or went broke because they weren't able to find gold for any amount of reason. They took a RISK. But again, not weed boy. Weed boy NEVER takes risks.

You invested in BitCoin, didn't you?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Many lazy weed smoking gamers invested in Bitcon.

 

[DarkCorp]

You seem to think I'm talking about people that are anywhere near below the millionaire mark. I'm really not, even if can be as full of crooks as it can be above. Naturally it's born from the fantasy of you or me ever becoming one of them in or above the mark, just with "good decisions", like it's a management sim game, so naturally you want to protect the interests of those who exploit you because hey maybe I'll get my turn someday! I'm honestly not sure how can you see at people increasing their net value anywhere from 5 to 100 million every fucking day and say "you know, better with them", when there's essentially no completely ethical way of getting there, let alone staying there. When you can solve world hunger *by yourself* and still be a billionaire, I can't do anything but assume you're a psychopath.

It is more like I am neither in the Tea Party/Ayn Rand crowd or the Socialism/Communism crowd. I am not trying to protect the rich and corrupt corporations but I am also not for burning the economy to the ground.

AGAIN, do you read what I have posted? I am FOR fixing legal loopholes from tax evasion. I am FOR punishing those shady CEOs who break the law. I am for a UBI that is reasonable and when conditions allow it. I am not trying to protect anyone, especially if they did illegal shit. It took time, but Enron was punished. Goldman Sachs was punished. Good.

Fixing world hunger? Are you even hearing yourself Arnust? Even if you were able to surmount the INCREDIBLE challenges of logistics, you would need to battle through the legal regulations of every single fucking country on the planet. You would have to make sure that the governing bodies of these nations actually do not abuse or otherwise use food as a control mechanism for their populace, such as oppressive , authoritarian regimes. This would most likely result in you being called an imperialist, evil capitalist, and probably run out of the country when they have taken all they can. NOBODY, is going to be able to do this and still be billionaires. Why the fuck would any sane individual even attempt this? Are you TRYING to be intellectually dishonest here? When trying to change the world, it is more productive to achieve small gains then demand, MASSIVE, unrealistic demands, then sigh and say, "I tried", while patting oneself on the shoulder.

What I am NOT for is creating out of control government programs specifically to help USELESS people, especially if it requires oppressive tax rates that fuck over everyone else BUT those useless people. I am FOR programs WITH STRINGS ATTACHED. I am FOR tax rates that balance the needs of USEFUL people while not scaring away investment and jobs. I have repeatedly pointed out to Crni that his 'no strings attached', policy is most likely way too positive. I have pointed out, like Obamacare, somethings sound good on paper but in reality, are not such a good idea.

It is funny how investors have recently attempted to revitalize Detroit yet the same old assholes are now bitching about gentrification and how the investors are predators. So essentially, people HAVE to give their money to the city but not expect to get any kind of reasonable return. So investors leave, BAD and RACISM. Investors return, BAD and RACISM. I am AGAINST exactly this kind of retarded shit.

Yeah, and then everyone's fired and they fuck off to the next investment. As in, literally what happened after that, and he could even sue some of the fleeing devs for plagiarism of STALKER when they were making Metro. That consumers get pissy matters absolutely nothing to them or their reputation.

And if that CEO has committed a crime, then he/she deserves to be punished, simple. I have not said anything to the contrary. It sounds like, from this example, massive corruption is at fault here and the authorities in the country did absolutely nothing. And I still haven't said that the people who worked under these CEOs deserved to be exploited, like not getting paid.

Do you know a primary example of a dirty leach that sounds exactly like that? He is from Germany and his name is Uwe Boll. He milked millions out of the German government, so much so that they had to cut him off. While I am sure he actually paid the people working for him, he didn't exactly do much. The problem here is that government regulations actually allowed these assholes to prosper under the guise of, 'giving people the ability to be free, create and be themselves, or some such bullshit'.

bitcoin

Not sure what you are trying to imply here. No, bitcoin is a shitty investment and will always be a shitty investment. If what happened to Mt. Gox, Nicehash, Bitstamp, Bitfinex, etc, etc, hasn't woken people up, they never will. If it is along the lines of what Crni said, than it also leads to what I am about to say.

Remember what I said about levels of stupidity here? Same with investing. While all investments have some sort of risk, some are riskier than others. Those who continue to invest in Bitcoin after knowing about the above examples, are a prime example of those who are monumentally stupid.

Also, if they have money to invest, I am assuming they have a job and therefore, do not fall into the useless category, at least not completely. If they simply throw their earnings into a burning barrel and then are a prime supporter of free shit, then we definitely cannot have Crnis, 'No strings attached', rule.

 

[valcik]

New study of UBI trials says this shit is useless. Nothing but wasted moneys putting uncontrollable pressure on GDP, according to British expert:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-basic-income-public-realm-poverty-inequality

From Kenya and southern India to Alaska and Finland, cash payment schemes have been claimed to show that UBI “works”. In fact, what’s been tested in practice is almost infinitely varied, with cash paid at different levels and intervals, usually well below the poverty line and mainly to individuals selected because they are severely disadvantaged, with funds provided by charities, corporations and development agencies more often than by governments.

So much for "b-but it worked in Kenya, look!!!11+" nonsense. Sorry to burst your bubble Vuk.

 

[Deleted member 116369]

I remember there being a town in China that follows the Mao style of Communism and philosophy.
From what I remember of it, it is a tourist destination, has "happy" citizens, and is having some sort of problem with its economy.
Has anyone else heard of the place?

 

[alec]

This thread totally reminds me of why I didn't visit this forum for several years. So much stupidity, so much naivety, so much hardheadedness, yet so little humanity. Members should be required to read at least three books on the subject before posting. And maybe another three on related topics.

Blaming the poor (who are, for some reason, regarded as lazy and who are prone to disease because they're poor) and the sick (who are, for some reason, regarded as lazy and who are usually poor because they are sick) and the lazy (who are usually not lazy, but rather sick and therefore poor) for the economic malaise some countries are experiencing is asinine to say the least. You know why? Because modern society has every interest in maintaining a status quo with regards to problematic minorities. Just a simple example: the city I live in, Ghent in Belgium, has a rather small amount of homeless people and quite a lot of organizations that are meant to solve this problem. So why don't they? Because if they solve the problem, they're all out of jobs. Those 100 or so poor sods that have to sleep under the bridges of Ghent and try to steal your sandwich during your lunchbreak actually create hundreds of jobs. I worked for a youth organization that specialized in helping kids from poor families. Do you really think we tried to make them richer? Fuck no. We spend nearly 90% of the sponsored money on the organization itself, printing full color brochures that ended up in landfills, buying expensive furniture for our offices, buying tablets, buying cars, ... We even charged those kids money to go on a shitty weekend trip where they had to do everything themselves. I still see some of those kids in town. Usually in the park smoking pot and getting drunk on dirt cheap pilsener. You think my ex boss doesn't know this? But he was having fun, he was feeling good about himself every day, and that's all that mattered to him and his cronies. If he can do this for the rest of his life, he will. And so he does.
Everything the normies out there hate, the sick, the poor, the lazy, the disabled, the addicted, the illegal, all the things they blame for their petty personal financial difficulties, all these things are creating jobs and smiles on the faces of other people.
A real self-made man (the American dream, the rags to riches story) would never look down upon the poor and call them lazy, because a real self-made man would at least understand how fortunate he was to escape poverty.
And now I'm gonna smoke the rest of that Violator Kush, take a shower and do nothing for the rest of the day.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

 

[TheGM]

Members should be required to read at least three books on the subject before posting. And maybe another three on related topics.

Some would say nailing the head of your penis to a pinewood board is a bad idea, but until you do your research and take some courses and rack up a couple thousand dollars of student debt on the subject, how can you really know?

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Unrelated, but funny.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well yeah, everybody knows nailing your penis to a pinewood board is bad, but what about a mahogany board? If you nailed your penis to a mahogany board it's a totally different story, then we could achieve fully automated luxury penis board nailing.
Real penis board nailing has never been tried. If it hurt, it was done wrong and you need a different wood.

 

[Romanophile]

To the original poster: the question is not whether world socialism is technologically feasible or not. The East managed to create largely self‐sustaining planned economies despite their relatively simplistic technology and agriculturally inappropriate geographies. The question is when are the lower classes going to overthrow the ruling. For obvious reasons, the ruling class has never respected socialism: it interferes with capital, a phenomenon which always seeks to expand, hence why their mindset (antisocialism) became the norm for all of society. Unless the lower classes or specifically the proletariat are ready and willing to fight for revolution, world socialism simply cannot exist.

Don’t feel too guilty about not knowing this; the upper classes never bother to teach the full extent of their activity and influence during the twentieth century. Even when they do teach cases of class conflict (e.g. the Vietnam), it is usually in a very simple, one‐sided format that ignores the importance of class whenever applicable, and tries to lead students into thinking that the antisocialists are culpable for absolutely nothing. So the possibility of world socialism has little to do with technology; it is a question of when the international proletariat is going to overthrow capital and its representatives. Given the sheer number of rebellions, revolutions, and other class struggles that the lower classes have waged all over the world for centuries, especially in times of crisis, it would be very naïve to dismiss the possibility.

 

[Hassknecht]

Woah, that's some secret. Socialism is based on class struggle. Holy shit. Never would have thought about that. Omnilul @ succesfully implemented self-sustaining planned economies, though.
Jokes aside, this here is not about classic communism but more about a reissue of the idea that machines will make the proletariat obsolete, only with AI and robots instead of steam engines. "Fully Automated Luxury Communism", as high-octane philosophers like to call it.
I'd agree that this will probably come at some point, when technology actually reaches a certain point, but we're still a few dozens years away from that. People severely underestimate the amount of actual human work still going into everything. Yes, manual unskilled labour is being phased out, but if you try to force this whole "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" stuff right now, you'll run into problems because there is then a new working class created that has to sustain all of this right now. The current middle and upper middle class technicians, programmers, engineers, and scientists will then be sole remaining workforce, so you either have to pay them very, very well to give an incentive for them to work 50 hour weeks when they could live a comfortable life without any work, or you force them to work. The latter is the quickest way to make Ayn Rand's shit reality, and nobody wants that.
And there's still not really a solution on who's going to pay for it. Massive tax increase on industry? Maybe on machines for automation? Don't do it now, because then development and implementation of said machines will cease, and the FALC won't come. Taxes on the rich? Sure, but their money will then also run out at some point. And the only other people actually creating value then are again the engineers and so on, and if you tax them to death they're gonna John Galt again (and please, do not prove Ayn Rand right. Her fans are too insufferable already).
Planned economies will work in the future. Especially additive manufacturing and high level automation will make production on demand possible, making a planned economy without constant shortages feasible. But we're still very far away from that.