Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

[DarkCorp]

The better question is,

Is it time for Putin to pass the torch?

Listen, I get it. Yes it could be argued that Gorbachev, or really Yeltsin, had pushed too hard on capitalism and liberalism. It seemed as if the soviet people themselves would need a period of adjustment, kind of like what happened with the PRC.

Anyways, the results were bad leading to the time of the oligarchs.

In comes Putin, who restores order, brings the oligarchs to heel, and takes care of the Chechen issue, amongst other things.

But a lot of time has passed since then. The Russian Federation, it could be argued, is a lot stronger. So with this in mind, would it not make sense for Putin to step down?

Maybe the new constitutional changes Putin wants to impose is a step forward? Or maybe it is a ploy for Putin to retain power but with a new title?

 

[MutantScalper]

Mostly because outright war after WWII between these two large powers would have been too costly for both sides. They had both quickly amassed massive nuclear arsenals, and direct war between them would have gone nuclear at some point. Too large a risk, so they kept it to a cold war with proxy wars.

There are countries with nukes like India and Pakistan which are much more in a state of conflict than US and Russia at this moment at least. Just because countries have nukes doesn't keep them from fighting conventional, I'd say it's the opposite. The nukes are just the 'crown' of the weapons arsenal and the larger the weapon arsenal a nation has the more conventional wars and saber rattling they can do around the planet.

 

[TheGM]

Eh, they weren't quite as focused on eradicating a single ethnicity with such ruthless efficiency.

Weren't Commieboys more about killing a shit ton of people instead of one specific group? then again isn't trying to argue about a percentage point on the scale of evil absurd, considering both were really fucking evil.

 

[Hassknecht]

There are countries with nukes like India and Pakistan which are much more in a state of conflict than US and Russia at this moment at least. Just because countries have nukes doesn't keep them from fighting conventional, I'd say it's the opposite. The nukes are just the 'crown' of the weapons arsenal and the larger the weapon arsenal a nation has the more conventional wars and saber rattling they can do around the planet.

Their conflict is currently limited to reenacting the Ministry of Silly Walks with their troops at their border. The Cold War was on the brink of escalation more than once, but level-headed people prevailed. Where the Indo-Pakistan wars were local conflicts, a hot war between the US and the SU would have immediately been a global war by necessity, with much more sizeable conventional warfare all over Europe and the very real potential of an apocalyptic global nuclear war. Simply put, much more was at stake, and much like the Indo-Pakistani wars that never escalated too far, nobody really wanted it to come that way.

Weren't Commieboys more about killing a shit ton of people instead of one specific group? then again isn't trying to argue about a percentage point on the scale of evil absurd, considering both were really fucking evil.

They did like their cleansing of political enemies and stuff, indeed. But yeah, no point in comparing death counts and shit.

 

[MutantScalper]

Speaking of nukes, did you know that Harry S. Truman used to belong to the KKK (Ku Klux Klan)? Like as an official member? The klan had over 4 million members in USA in the 1920's.

Maybe one reason we need socialism/communism is to get rid of racism.

Hass,

well the Cold War could have flared up but in the end it didn't. I'd much rather look at what actually happened rather than hypothetical things.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Unfeeling machines are scarier than people mobilized by hate imo

Hate is probably the wrong word when looking at the industrial side of the Holocaust. I suggest to look at the Wannenseeconference for the source and possible argument for the difference to the Soviet genocides. Certain ministries of the Reich came together in 1942 at Wannsee and discussed what is known today as the "Final solution of the Jewish question". They made predictions and estimations for the eradication of all Jewish life in their territories and future occupied territories. What is remarkable is with how little passion and actual emotion they rationalised their decisions and the cooperation between the different ministries where they went as far as relocating resources meant for their war efforts on the industrial killing of Jews and subjects the Reich deemed as unworthy. You could also look at speeches where Heinrich Himmler himself said to the Soldiers carrying out the Holocaust, they would have to do so, without passion. While there sure was some hate present and definitely a lot of sadism present against the Jews and other minorities within the third Reich, I would say particularly the higher up you go in the chain of command, the more was there the effort to make it an emotionless and industrial machine. Some high ranking Nazis quickly realised that the majority actually had an issue with killing people particularly outside of combat, as it often involved the direct killing of civilians, children, women, elderly und unarmed people. Some even filled out complaints. A lot of soldiers expressed their discomfort, even among battle hardened SS veterans. Many have been antisemitic but apparently pulling the trigger all day long at unarmed civilians does make you ask, are we the baddies? And simply killing the Jews where the death squats found them made it also in the eyes of the high command inefficient. Which is why they tried to make it as industrial and as emotionless as possible as far as the genocide in death and labour camp goes. One could argue the only thing that came eventually close to that in the Soviet Union was eventually the Holodomor. I quote :

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р; Голодомо́р в Украї́ні;[a][2] derived from морити голодом, "to kill by starvation")[3][4][5] was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It is also known as the Terror-Famine and Famine-Genocide in Ukraine,[6][7][8] and sometimes referred to as the Great Famine[9] or the Ukrainian Genocide of 1932–33.[10] It was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–33, which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country. During the Holodomor, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[11] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine[12] and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.[13]

The Nazis also deployed such tactics trough out the war with the same intention.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

I've seen alot of SS/Gestapo/Wehrmacht primary sourced letters and conversations and newpaper articles, propoganda, ect.

A great deal of Nazi's looked at the holocaust as being "Humane". It goes into the eugenics world-view.

It's what happens when a new world view is introduced into society faster than that society can comprehend/appreciate it.


*Edit* ninjaed by slav-pedia.

 

[Hassknecht]

Speaking of nukes, did you know that Harry S. Truman used to belong to the KKK (Ku Klux Klan)? Like as an official member? The klan had over 4 million members in USA in the 1920's.

Maybe one reason we need socialism/communism is to get rid of racism.

A true Democrat of his time.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Mostly because outright war after WWII between these two large powers would have been too costly for both sides. They had both quickly amassed massive nuclear arsenals, and direct war between them would have gone nuclear at some point. Too large a risk, so they kept it to a cold war with proxy wars.

Well for a short time they made up some "ideas" on how a war against the Soviets after 1945 and 46 would actually look like. The British had come up with something they called Operation Unthinkable. Some concepts assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany. I think the US made similar plans even involving nuclear attacks against Soviet targets. Some ideas even involved rearming the now beaten German army and putting them back in to service. In both plans however they quickly realised that regardless what tactic was chosen it would always end up in a war that would take years if not even decades.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

 

[Hassknecht]

Well for a short time they made up some "ideas" on how a war against the Soviets after 1945 and 46 would actually look like. The British had come up with something they called Operation Unthinkable. Some concepts assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany. I think the US made similar plans even involving nuclear attacks against Soviet targets. Some ideas even involved rearming the now beaten German army and putting them back in to service. In both plans however they quickly realised that regardless what tactic was chosen it would always end up in a war that would take years if not even decades.

I have a book called "The Third World War" by General Sir John Hackett that is basically a very detailed account on how a surprise attack by the Soviets would work out, with the main theater of war in Germany. The war would first be waged conventionally, and finally escalate into a limited nuclear war that sees Birmingham and Minsk destroyed.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think the Soviets would had a much easier time simply steam rolling over Europe than western Europe beating the Soviets. I think it all depends on the time frame though. Remember, the Soviets had no nuclear weapon before 1949, sooner than what western powers expected, yet even in 1949 the number of deployable nukes was "relatively" low - relative compared to the height of the cold war with its what? 60 000 nukes? I do believe without a mass deployment of nuclear weapons Europe had no chance of defending from a conventional Soviet land based attack. However I do not believe the Soviets would have been capable of actually securing the areas they occupied. Neither France nor Germany or even Britain had really the strength to oppose the Soviets. But it would have ended up in guerilla fighting and the Soviets would have soon run in to the exact same problem as the Germans. Long supply lines. And at some point the US would have simply done another DD-Like invasion in France slowly but steadily regaining the occupied territories. Would have been Basically WW2 all over again I guess ...

 

[MutantScalper]

Hate is probably the wrong word when looking at the industrial side of the Holocaust. I suggest to look at the Wannenseeconference for the source and possible argument for the difference to the Soviet genocides. Certain ministries of the Reich came together in 1942 at Wannsee and discussed what is known today as the "Final solution of the Jewish question". They made predictions and estimations for the eradication of all Jewish life in their territories and future occupied territories. What is remarkable is with how little passion and actual emotion they rationalised their decisions and the cooperation between the different ministries where they went as far as relocating resources meant for their war efforts on the industrial killing of Jews and subjects the Reich deemed as unworthy. You could also look at speeches where Heinrich Himmler himself said to the Soldiers carrying out the Holocaust, they would have to do so, without passion. While there sure was some hate present and definitely a lot of sadism present against the Jews and other minorities within the third Reich, I would say particularly the higher up you go in the chain of command, the more was there the effort to make it an emotionless and industrial machine. Some high ranking Nazis quickly realised that the majority actually had an issue with killing people particularly outside of combat, as it often involved the direct killing of civilians, children, women, elderly und unarmed people. Some even filled out complaints. A lot of soldiers expressed their discomfort, even among battle hardened SS veterans. Many have been antisemitic but apparently pulling the trigger all day long at unarmed civilians does make you ask, are we the baddies? And simply killing the Jews where the death squats found them made it also in the eyes of the high command inefficient. Which is why they tried to make it as industrial and as emotionless as possible as far as the genocide in death and labour camp goes. One could argue the only thing that came eventually close to that in the Soviet Union was eventually the Holodomor. I quote :

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р; Голодомо́р в Украї́ні;[a][2] derived from морити голодом, "to kill by starvation")[3][4][5] was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It is also known as the Terror-Famine and Famine-Genocide in Ukraine,[6][7][8] and sometimes referred to as the Great Famine[9] or the Ukrainian Genocide of 1932–33.[10] It was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–33, which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country. During the Holodomor, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[11] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine[12] and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.[13]

The Nazis also deployed such tactics trough out the war with the same intention.

Some hate present? Understatement of the year.

There's plenty of material online to show the extent of the hatred Germans and their allied had against Jewish folks. There's footage of little German kids kicking old Jews to death. I'd say there was pretty deep hatred there.

 

[DarkCorp]

The Hot War is a good book to read by Harry Turtledove.

Essentially lots of escalation, conventional war, tactical nukes, and then nuke trading, city for city.

 

[TheGM]

Speaking of nukes, did you know that Harry S. Truman used to belong to the KKK (Ku Klux Klan)? Like as an official member? The klan had over 4 million members in USA in the 1920's.

The funny shit about that was because of the movie of the Birth of Nation, so all those ancient news reels of guys in robes look a helluva lot different when you realize those are people essentially dressing up like Star Wars characters.

 

[MutantScalper]

 

[Deleted member 53669]

I think the Soviets would had a much easier time simply steam rolling over Europe than western Europe beating the Soviets. I think it all depends on the time frame though. Remember, the Soviets had no nuclear weapon before 1949, sooner than what western powers expected, yet even in 1949 the number of deployable nukes was "relatively" low - relative compared to the height of the cold war with its what? 60 000 nukes? I do believe without a mass deployment of nuclear weapons Europe had no chance of defending from a conventional Soviet land based attack. However I do not believe the Soviets would have been capable of actually securing the areas they occupied. Neither France nor Germany or even Britain had really the strength to oppose the Soviets. But it would have ended up in guerilla fighting and the Soviets would have soon run in to the exact same problem as the Germans. Long supply lines. And at some point the US would have simply done another DD-Like invasion in France slowly but steadily regaining the occupied territories. Would have been Basically WW2 all over again I guess ...

Probably. However I have a feeling alot of Soviets would defect once they visited the lands they were supposedly "Liberating"

 

[Crni Vuk]

Some hate present? Understatement of the year.

There's plenty of material online to show the extent of the hatred Germans and their allied had against Jewish folks. There's footage of little German kids kicking old Jews to death. I'd say there was pretty deep hatred there.

Yes there are. But believe it not. The majority of people have been indifferent to Jews. Which tells us why it is important today to keep an eye on racism and discrimination, even if only a minority of the population is doing it because we know what can happen. The Nazis and their ideology never made up the majority of the people or even the Army. The overwhelmingly majority of people have been what is known today as tag-alongs. Even the US categorized most Germans as that when they did their surveys after the war.

Probably. However I have a feeling alot of Soviets would defect once they visited the lands they were supposedly "Liberating"

There is a story where Soviet Soldiers used to occupy German homes. At some point some of them started whacking holes in to the wall wondering why there was no water coming out of it as many of them saw a sink inside a house the first time they came to Germany and expected water simply to run trough the walls. Quite a few Germans wondered at that point how they managed to beat them. ​

 

[TheGM]

They didn't show up because they thought a bunch of Pollacks with pipes were going to crack their stupid jagov skulls open.

 

[Hassknecht]

Yes there are. But believe it not. The majority of people have been indifferent to Jews. Which tells us why it is important today to keep an eye on racism and discrimination, even if only a minority of the population is doing it because we know what can happen. The Nazis and their ideology never made up the majority of the people or even the Army. The overwhelmingly majority of people have been what is known today as tag-alongs. Even the US categorized most Germans as that when they did their surveys after the war.

Yeah, I think a Rwandan style Holocaust wouldn't have been possible. The majority of the people (or even a sizeable portion) going up close and personal and whack Jews to death with entrenchment tools? The hardened SS cadres might have done that, but the ordinary civilians? They were cowards and even when they knew what happened in the death camps they did nothing, but I don't think they could have done something like that. The majority would just stand idly by while the Jews were murdered in the streets in such a case, just like when they stood idly by when they took the Jews away to murder them in far away.