Why Fallout 3 is not as bad as most people on this forum think

[sigma1932]

Just wanted to add my 5 cents as to why i dislike fallout 3, and its simply that bethesda made a linear FPS rpg, and then called it Fallout 3, wich means we will never see a true followup to the great series i played for years(and still do every now and then). the line is broken and if there is coming another fallout it will still probably be made by bethesda, into another shitty fps rpg, with dreadful dialogue and feel like a chore rather than amusement to go trough.

Only flaw in your argument is calling FO3 any sort of RPG.

 

[TheChosen1]

But that's just because the worst fiction books introduce their own cannon/lore when Beth just shat on pre-existing cannon/lore.

 

[Mathius]

Wow. I can already tell I won't fit in here because I like FO3, even better than NV. I don't understand any of the arguments about how Bethesda crapped on the lore either.

I don't see how in a world where there are no televisions, no cell phones, no tvs, and barely working radios that you could consider anything that happened in FO1 & 2, which are primarily west coast based in California would have any accurate representation of the rest of north america? Why would you NOT want to see the mutants in full 3d rendering rather than isometric or cut scenes?

There's a lot about FO3 that doesn't make sense, starting with the fact that 200 years after the bombs went off people are still dealing with radiation and living in broken buildings when they have the technology to build and repair laser weapons and vertiberds, but they obviously made a collective decision to make it as "fallout-like" as they could, which is why a lot of stuff is rehashed. And quite honestly if I had to pick and choose between lore and gameplay, I felt like FO3 was just a better game than NV, which seems to have been collectively deemed more lore friendly. I also find it questionable how many people defend New Vegas with the reason being that "Obsidian had to build off of what Bethesda did." Why? New Vegas is back on the west coast. If anything that gives them more of an excuse to not worry about what's going on in D.C. for the reasons I listed in the opening of this post.

It seems like the majority of you don't even really have an issue with Fallout 3. What you're really complaining about is the loss of what you consider a true RPG. Guess what? They're going away. Get used to it. The majority of people are tired of turn based stuff. If you want that sort of thing maybe you'll have more luck on google play or join an mmo or something. Because that's where that stuff is headed.

This is the part where you guys hate on me for not understanding RPG's and talk about how it's supposed to have choices and those choices have consequences and you should be able to roll different characters and your choices as you build your characters should effect the outcome.

I can go over to an elder scrolls forum and listen to the same complaining from the Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind guys about Oblivion and Skyrim.

I grew up playing and programming for MUDs, and I couldn't wait for the day when someone could take those text based stories and turn them into a full on 3d masterpiece where I could swing a sword instead of typing kill.

 

[Atomic Postman]

If you don't understand the complaints about Bethesda crapping over the lore you might want to practice your reading comprehension.

I don't see how in a world where there are no televisions, no cell phones, no tvs, and barely working radios that you could consider anything that happened in FO1 & 2, which are primarily west coast based in California would have any accurate representation of the rest of north america?

What?

I've read through this part of your post several times and it still doesn't make any sense.

And quite honestly if I had to pick and choose between lore and gameplay, I felt like FO3 was just a better game than NV

Again, what?

New Vegas's gameplay is a definite improvement over Fallout 3,I really don't know how you could argue otherwise, the addition of Iron Sights,Hardcore Mode and other various minor changes/fixes actually made the game fun to play.

I would even go as far as to say that NV's gameplay being better than Fo3 is more of a fact rather than an opinion.

"Obsidian had to build off of what Bethesda did." Why? New Vegas is back on the west coast. If anything that gives them more of an excuse to not worry about what's going on in D.C. for the reasons I listed in the opening of this post.

Once more, what?

When people say that they refer to the gameplay and engine, they did the best they could with Fo3's podgy gameplay and broken engine and if I remember correctly Obsidian worked directly off of the lore established in Fo1 and Fo2 with only passing references to Fo3, I don't remember any worrying about what is going on in D.C in New Vegas at all.

It seems like the majority of you don't even really have an issue with Fallout 3.

This sentence in itself is laughable.

The majority of us have many issues with Fallout 3, you don't have to look far to find people discussing them.

What you're really complaining about is the loss of what you consider a true RPG.

Yes and no, while many (including myself) do take issue with the "loss of an RPG",it's not our only complaint and not what we're "really" complaining about.

Guess what? They're going away. Get used to it. The majority of people are tired of turn based stuff. If you want that sort of thing maybe you'll have more luck on google play or something. Because that's where that stuff is headed.

And this is the part that made me realize you are an idiot with terrible gaming tastes.

I'm guessing you play exclusively on Consoles (Which would explain your love for Fallout 3 and distaste at RPG's.) because you just have to look at the steam store to see that RPG's aren't going away.

Wasteland 2 is an Isometric RPG and is pretty much a spiritual sequel to the original Fallout games (And of course the original Wasteland) and it has been doing very well.

Actual RPG's are being released consistently, some from indie developers,some not.

I could understand you believing that RPG's are dying if your only view of gaming news or newly released games was the Xbox Dashboard.

This also sounds suspiciously like "Your old fashioned crap is gone grandpa! get used to the new crap! get with the times old timer!" and generally gives me the idea that you're pretty young.

This is the part where you guys hate on me for not understanding RPG's and talk about how it's supposed to have choices and those choices have consequences and you should be able to roll different characters and your choices as you build your characters should effect the outcome.

Yes pretty much, this is something you've actually got right for a change.

I can go over to an elder scrolls forum and listen to the same complaining from the Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind guys about Oblivion and Skyrim.

Why don't you go fuck off back there then? I'm sure those guys have very valid points too seeing as the latter was hardly an RPG at all.

 

[Mathius]

I was waiting for the whole "they're dumbing it down for consoles" argument. You were almost there. I don't have a problem with RPG's. But I'm not going to sit and cry that some options were taken away from me. These are called action rpg's for a reason. If you didn't understand that when you bought it, I have zero sympathy. You guys are stuck on the old definition of RPG where you play your own role. That's not how action rpg's work. You play the role the developer set out for you. These games are too big for them to add as much content as you guys want. The team that did Skyrim was massive compared to the team that did the Fallout games and they still came up short in that respect. Bills have to be paid. Not that they couldn't afford to cut corners in places. If Steam sales were an indication that RPG's were still selling, then they'd be ON consoles. Because there are far more developers on consoles now. I want them to bring back PB Max, Crystal Clear Pepsi, and E.T. Cereal, but those things aren't happening either.

Fallout New Vegas had a better engine and some better features, but the gameplay was not better. You're referring to engine changes and mechanics. The story was stupid, the wasteland was a huge big empty place full of boarded up buildings with nothing to do, the game railroaded you into doing the main quest unless you wanted to tackle Deathclaws or Cazedores and you couldn't play past the game end. The combat was completely unbalanced.

And getting back to my first part about the lore, the main complaints seem to be that the super mutants were already dealt with, FEV was only experimented with at Maripose, the enclave had been destroyed in FO2, and they changed the BoS. But like I said. The first 2 games take place in California. Why would ANY of that information be reliable? How was it verified? Do they have spy satellites in the fallout world? telephone? News reporters?

Oh, and my steam account is madd_k. I don't play these games on console. But I do own all the last generation consoles. Because only an idiot limits himself when he can have more than one option.

 

[TheChosen1]

The wasteland was a huge big empty place full of boarded up buildings with nothing to do

Beats a town full of asshole kids and idiots worshiping a nuke.
And I'd rather be hunting down the asshole who shot me than following daddy and be forced into fighting for one faction. You never get to join the Enclave if you poison the water, continuation after the end credits? Only if you paid for it and Enclave still shoot you even if you followed their instructions.

 

[Mathius]

Beats a town full of asshole kids and idiots worshiping a nuke.
And I'd rather be hunting down the asshole who shot me than following daddy and be forced into fighting for one faction. You never get to join the Enclave if you poison the water, continuation after the end credits? Only if you paid for it and Enclave still shoot you even if you followed their instructions.

The world is full of idiots. Sturgeon's Law declares that 90% of everything is crap. If adding factions is the only real argument you have against the game, go download Tale of Two Wastelands and fix it.

 

[TheChosen1]

That is not what I am complaining about, I'm complaining about the fact that you said that the story in NV is worse than 3 when I am pointing out the fact that the story was extremely linear and shallow. Mods can't fix shit that.

 

[Mathius]

That is not what I am complaining about, I'm complaining about the fact that you said that the story in NV is worse than 3 when I am pointing out the fact that the story was extremely linear and shallow. Mods can't fix shit that.

Yeah. Except almost every complaint you listed was a faction related issue. "You never get to join the Enclave" "The Enclave still shoots you if you follow their instructions" "forced into fighting for one faction"

I don't know what the complaint is about following your dad. Because that's not why you left the vault. If you had done everything according to plan you'd have stayed in the vault and lived happily ever after. That would have made for a pretty boring game. The reason you left the vault is because the Overseer was going to torture your ass. His thugs had already killed Jonis. So what else were you going to do when you left the vault? You're free to explore where ever you want to. You don't even have to do the main quest if you don't want to. That's more or less the point of an open world game. You know?

And I didn't have to pay jack for Broken Steel because I was smart enough to wait for GotY and get the whole package for $20.

 

[Emperor]

And getting back to my first part about the lore, the main complaints seem to be that the super mutants were already dealt with, FEV was only experimented with at Maripose, the enclave had been destroyed in FO2, and they changed the BoS. But like I said. The first 2 games take place in California. Why would ANY of that information be reliable? How was it verified? Do they have spy satellites in the fallout world? telephone? News reporters?

FEV was only worked by the team of Mariposa, since it was chosen to be funded by the goverment , if it was another virus/dna/etc by another team that didn't get funded would made sense but it's the same FEV with some mutation and the worst, is developed by Vault-Tec who builds vaults.

The Oil Ring was the main HQ for Enclave, all the important people were there. There was only some outposts on the mainland, but they are just that; The DC Enclave, apart from having power armor from the Mid BOS, is basically a tweaked version of the original.

The BOS in FO3 are presented as the true one, while the Outcast are just some jerks, this for me is one of the worst things that FO3 did wrong because when NV came everybody mean talked Obsidian of getting the BOS wrong. I can understand a BOS chapter going rogue or ''sent out on special missions'', but presenting the rogue one as the true was some serious mistake.

D.C should be a hole in the ground because of it's status ( one of the motives why the Enclave didn't choose to hide there) but in the game it look's like it got hit by an earthquake. Those Nuclear missiles were pretty weak huh?

To end, if we go by your logic of just because the first games were at X and the latter ones were at Z, anything would be non-cannon in every game. To answer where it's verified just look at the Fallout Bible who explains the FO universe, is basically the word of god there.

EDIT: I confused the FEV with the New Plague on the mass control thing.

 

[TheChosen1]

But the reason those are faction related issues is because the story forces you to be with those factions, you can't just say "Skrew you B.o.S I don't want to follow you, I will go on with my life away from this.". Also, a smart person would tell the Overseer that he wasn't involved with his father. Now please tell me how YOU think that F3 is better than Vegas.
Also, please tell me how did the Enclave survive that? The Oil Rig got blown up during congress or something like that and I didn't see any Vertibirds flying away. Vault-tec was full of maniacs, focused on making super soldiers F.E.V, really?

 

[Mathius]

FEV was only worked by the team of Mariposa, since it was chosen to be funded by the goverment because of the population control it has, if it was another virus/dna/etc by another team that didn't get funded would made sense but it's the same FEV with some mutation and the worst, is developed by Vault-Tec who builds vaults. This FEV is more like super soldier experiment than the original.

Except that Vault-Tec doesn't just build vaults. Even in your fallout bible it's pointed out that Vault tec has their hands in everything. Not to mention the vaults were funded by the US, so there's no reason to believe they wouldn't have introduced FEV into the program themselves.

The Oil Ring was the main HQ for Enclave, all the important people were there. There was only some outposts on the mainland, but they are just that; The DC Enclave, apart from having power armor from the Mid BOS, is basically a tweaked version of the original.

Was there a point made there? I wrote in one of my replies above that part of the approach for Fallout 3 was to deliberately introduce some things from Fallout 1 & 2 to allow for them to be presented with better technology than 1997. Verti-birds definitely existed in the time of Fallout and Fallout 2, and there was 30 years between Fallout 2 and 3, so there is nothing lore wise to suggest it isn't possible for a remnant group to re-organize. Why would an organization that represents itself as the final remnants of the us government NOT have a base of some sort in DC? And President Eden was directly created by the Zax system introduced in the earlier fallout games.

The BOS in FO3 are presented as the true one, while the Outcast are just some jerks, this for me is one of the worst things that FO3 did wrong because when NV came everybody mean talked Obsidian of getting the BOS wrong. I can understand a BOS chapter going rogue or ''sent out on special missions'', but presenting the rogue one as the true was some serious mistake.

Anyone who said Obsidian got that part wrong didn't pay too much attention during FO3. Speaking to Outcast Casdin I think his name is.. the guy outside Fort Independence clearly states that Lyon's is in the wrong and he's the one who is the outcast/traitor to what the BoS stands for. The problem is Lyon's actually wants to help the people in DC so he became part of the major plotline, whereas the BoS really doesn't give a crap about DC so you only find that out if you go exploring.

D.C should be a hole in the ground because of it's status ( one of the motives why the Enclave didn't choose to hide there) but in the game it look's like it got hit by an earthquake. Those Nuclear missiles were pretty weak huh?

Little Boy and Fat Man were beginning to be developed in 1942. The bombs in the Fallout world dropped in 2077. We have rifles now that will fire from over a mile away and punch through a brick wall and armor plating and you don't think in 135 years they couldn't have developed a nuclear bomb with controlled accuracy? According to Fallout 3 lore, the Chinese had a pretty good presence in the DC area, so it makes sense they would want to minimize the damage to proceed with their own operations. The White House is a giant crater full of ghouls.

To end, if we go by your logic of just because the first games were at X and the latter ones were at Z, anything would be non-cannon in every game. To answer where it's verified just look at the Fallout Bible who explains the FO universe, is basically the word of god there.

No, you completely misunderstood what I said. There's literally no way to tell if you've exterminated a whole group. So you found their base in California. You have someone in the lore from fallout 2 in California telling you that, but they have no technology to verify it. We thought we were done with the Germans in WWI, but we still fought WWII. We thought we were done in the Middle East with Desert Storm, but 20 years later, we're back there again chasing a different guy. Regarding the Bible, canon comes from the point of the creations. It changes. A lot can change in a 30 year time period.

 

[Mathius]

But the reason those are faction related issues is because the story forces you to be with those factions, you can't just say "Skrew you B.o.S I don't want to follow you, I will go on with my life away from this.".l

Am I speaking english here? I said they were faction related issues because they are. It doesn't matter why. The point is, if you had NV faction system in FO3, then you might have an option to side with the Enclave.

Also, a smart person would tell the Overseer that he wasn't involved with his father.

The overseer was mad with power and afraid of change and it was stated that he was part of the group that left the vault years before and found out just how dangerous the wasteland was and ended up returning. It's never stated because there isn't enough character development, but it's quite possible that he has a fear of opening up the vault because when he left all those years ago it was possibly with Amata's mother and she died as a result of the trip, giving him an irrational complex to keep Amata protected by not opening the vault.

Now please tell me how YOU think that F3 is better than Vegas.

I'd be happy to. First off, seeing the post apocalyptic ruins of DC where there is some actual history and a lot of research was clearly done into putting together the historical environment was a lot better atmosphere than the wide open empty wasteland of New Vegas. Seeing the Washington Monument crumbling to bits, the entire Mall area swarming with Mutants, exploring to find the remnants of Arlington Cemetary? That was kind've cool. The entire atmosphere of the game was a lot better. I see nothing but people spewing hate about Little Lamplight on this board in the one day I've been here, but I liked the atmosphere of Little Lamplight and I thought the characters were interesting. The sequence where you enter the GECK in the little leave it to Beaver spoof was also entertaining. I also thoroughly enjoyed going through Vault 87 and I felt Fawkes was an interesting character. And the sequence with Liberty Prime was a lot of fun as well. It was like going to war with Optimus Prime.

The combat was far more balanced with FO3 GotY than New Vegas. New Vegas pins you into a corner at the start of the game and forces you into the main quest because there are enemies like Deathclaws and Cazadores that will eat you alive if you go the wrong way, but on level 50 I dominated everything. In FO3 I got a nice even challenge the entire game, even on level 30 when running into Reavers, Overlords, and Sentry Bots.

And speaking of being penned in a corner... In Fallout 3 I could go wherever I wanted the moment I left the vault. In Fallout NV you're basically forced into either struggling every step of the way or following the main quest. Lots of stuff has random skill checks that keep you from being able to enter an area or have dialogue with a person until later in the game. There's also invisible walls EVERYWHERE.

Also, please tell me how did the Enclave survive that? The Oil Rig got blown up during congress or something like that and I didn't see any Vertibirds flying away.

Nobody said they survived it. The Zax computer offloaded whatever information it needed to create President Eden right before the explosion and the rest of the Enclave was either created from whatever remnants were around or were new recruits.

Vault-tec was full of maniacs, focused on making super soldiers F.E.V, really?

Vault-tec was full of maniacs focused on experimenting in whatever ways they could whether that was social experiments where they put hundreds of women in one vault with one male, or biological experiments where they deliberately let radiation seep into the vault. As I mentioned in the post above, the FEV substance was government funded and so was the Vault-Tec Program. You put two and two together.

 

[TheChosen1]

"The point is, if you had NV faction system in FO3, then you might have an option to side with the Enclave."
I don't care about joining the Enclave, that was just an example, what I cared about was being penned in with the stereotipical good guys, you didn't like being penned in in Vegas apparently, so why did you like it in 3? Also, I would make it a priority to kill the guy who shot me and finish my job, if you didn't read it, the delivery manifest said:

CONTRACT PENALTIES

You are an authorized agent of the Mojave Express Package until delivery is complete and payment has been processed, contractually obligated to complete this transaction and materially responsible for any malfeasance or loss. Failure to deliver the proper recipient may result in forfeiture of your advance and bonus, criminal charges, and/or pursuit by mercenary reclamation teams. The Mojave Express is not responsible for any injury or loss of life you experience as a result of said reclamation efforts.

Stuff like that really does motivate a person.

So you're in it for the atmosphere and a giant robot, good on you.
It is a great way of letting you progress along the story, instead of just saying that there is a town nearby that you should investigate and then ask for a middle aged man in glasses.
Also with the mods I'm using, even at Lv 50 if I get swarmed by Fiends I'm screwed and swarmed means six guys.
New recruits, really, you expect me to believe that the Enclave got themselves hundreds of perfectly healthy, fit and trained men and turned them into soldiers?

But it was amata who screams at you that you have to run away from the vault, you never get any say in the matter, I would be much happier if you surrendered to the Overseer, he just kicks you out, also this *Brand New* quest revolves around water again.

 

[TheChosen1]

D.C should be a hole in the ground because of it's status ( one of the motives why the Enclave didn't choose to hide there) but in the game it look's like it got hit by an earthquake. Those Nuclear missiles were pretty weak huh?

Little Boy and Fat Man were beginning to be developed in 1942. The bombs in the Fallout world dropped in 2077. We have rifles now that will fire from over a mile away and punch through a brick wall and armor plating and you don't think in 135 years they couldn't have developed a nuclear bomb with controlled accuracy? According to Fallout 3 lore, the Chinese had a pretty good presence in the DC area, so it makes sense they would want to minimize the damage to proceed with their own operations. The White House is a giant crater full of ghouls.

I'm sorry, when you are causing a total apocalypse, there is no room to think about moles behind the enemy lines.

 

[Mathius]

"The point is, if you had NV faction system in FO3, then you might have an option to side with the Enclave."
I don't care about joining the Enclave, that was just an example, what I cared about was being penned in with the stereotipical good guys, you didn't like being penned in in Vegas apparently, so why did you like it in 3? Also, I would make it a priority to kill the guy who shot me and finish my job, if you didn't read it, the delivery manifest said:

CONTRACT PENALTIES

You are an authorized agent of the Mojave Express Package until delivery is complete and payment has been processed, contractually obligated to complete this transaction and materially responsible for any malfeasance or loss. Failure to deliver the proper recipient may result in forfeiture of your advance and bonus, criminal charges, and/or pursuit by mercenary reclamation teams. The Mojave Express is not responsible for any injury or loss of life you experience as a result of said reclamation efforts.

Stuff like that really does motivate a person.

So you're in it for the atmosphere and a giant robot, good on you.
It is a great way of letting you progress along the story, instead of just saying that there is a town nearby that you should investigate and then ask for a middle aged man in glasses.
Also with the mods I'm using, even at Lv 50 if I get swarmed by Fiends I'm screwed and swarmed means six guys.
New recruits, really, you expect me to believe that the Enclave got themselves hundreds of perfectly healthy, fit and trained men and turned them into soldiers?

But it was amata who screams at you that you have to run away from the vault, you never get any say in the matter, I would be much happier if you surrendered to the Overseer, he just kicks you out, also this *Brand New* quest revolves around water again.

You're hilarious because on one hand you're complaining the game gives you no choices, but you're just plodding along like a puppet doing whatever the game asks because you're so damn worried about the main quest. Did it ever occur to you to just be an evil bastard and just kill those people? Like I said before. It's an open world game. You don't have to do the main quest. And even if you do, part of the challenge is finding out how many different ways you can complete it. You can literally skip a ton of the main quest if it isn't your thing. Nobody said that everytime something shows up in your quest log you have to do it.

I'm sorry, when you are causing a total apocalypse, there is no room to think about moles behind the enemy lines.

Been in a lot of apocalyptic wars have you? Had to kill a lot of your friends as collateral damage? SERIOUSLY? Your problem is you complain that you want shades of gray but you look at everything as black and white.

Every time you refer to someone in the game you perceive as the "enemy" the enclave, the chinese, whatever you act like they're evil bastards and that's that. Don't feel bad, it's not just you. Most people do this. People act like Nazis are well.... nazis. I mean it's almost become it's own term to label someone as evil. But people forget the Nazi party started out as a political party and there were probably some genuinely good people that were Nazis. WWI started because of Austria. Germany was just an ally. But at the end of WWI, Germany got penalize like hell. It naturally pissed them off a bit. The whole point of the Nazi party was to get back some of what they lost. National pride was a lot bigger deal back then. Nowadays everyone is connected by the internet and they don't give a damn if someone sings America the beautiful in french.

If the chinese have the option of dropping a pinpoint nuke on strategic military points, there's very little reason for them to waste the effort of wiping the nation clear. Someone pointed this out before but nobody knows who dropped the first bomb, the point was they were both waiting to retaliate. That was the whole reason there was time for the Vault effort to even work in the first place. I don't know if the game lore ever tells you what China's perceived gains are from infiltrating Alaska in the first place, but it seems to be about natural resources. So why would they want to just wipe out the entire country and destroy those resources. They would want to gain as much as they can.

 

[naossano]

You're hilarious because on one hand you're complaining the game gives you no choices, but you're just plodding along like a puppet doing whatever the game asks because you're so damn worried about the main quest. Did it ever occur to you to just be an evil bastard and just kill those people? Like I said before. It's an open world game. You don't have to do the main quest. And even if you do, part of the challenge is finding out how many different ways you can complete it. You can literally skip a ton of the main quest if it isn't your thing. Nobody said that everytime something shows up in your quest log you have to do it.

Which raise one of the issues that i have with Bethesda.

They sold the game as a roleplaying-game, but provided a GTA with muties instead of cars.
They sold the game as a Fallout game, but lacked the writting skills that defined Fallout in the first place, (i think there is an interview in which a Bethesda dev confessed that the writting wasn't their priority) and bring a big mess with continuity.
They bring us Black & White morality, with black & white costume in a series that always manage to be morally gray.
They told that the story would take place 200 years after a nuclear strike, but it looks like 5 years after a blitz.
The list of their broken promises would go on endlessly.

You may say you like the game, but if you played other episodes, you cannot be oblivious that they failed on everything that could have made a proper Fallout RPG. I am not arguing about the possibility of someone liking Fallout 3, but the fact that Fallout 3 developper made promises that they didn't have the intend or skills to deliver. On the other hand i concede them that they tried to do too many things at once and didn't manage to devellop those concepts, contrary to FOBOS, for instance, that wasn't so much canon breaking, but took much much less risks.

By the way, the reasons for China to attack USA :

Relations were strained with China even before the Sino-American War, as it raced with the United States to tap the last remaining oil fields deep beneath the Pacific Ocean. The work of Chinese geologists and petroleum exploration engineers was sabotaged by American spies, allowing the United States' energy company Poseidon Oil to erect an Oil Rig of their own and claim the resource. The strained relations eventually lead to the Chinese invasion of Alaska in 2066, where the Anchorage Front Line became the first and most important battlefield.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/China

 

[Korin]

I love Fallout 3. I've probably spent more time playing it than most people. I probably also own more paraphernalia than most in the form of collectible items as well as a yearly cosplay I participate in as a Vault 101 dweller. But re-playing it objectively, it's not a "Fallout" game, in the sense that it diverges significantly from the originals (I say this as someone who played Fallout 1 and 2 probably a couple years after Fallout 3 was released). It is however now what Fallout will be known and continued to be created as which is essentially an Oblivion/Skyrim with guns (I have also played way too much of those games). To me, Fallout 3/New Vegas is Fallout, since I played 3 first. And when Fallout 4 comes up for pre-order, I'll have it ordered so fast my credit card literally ignites.

But re-playing 3 objectively and recently, a lot of the dialogue is pretty abysmal and many of the quests are shallow in nature (not to say I didn't find them charming). There's a lot of quests that really make no sense and plot holes a plenty. Compare 3 with New Vegas which is a much, much richer experience as far as quest lines, dialogue and quest completion options go. I still love 3 though, it will always be my favourite. But if I'm being honest, at logical levels it wasn't done well in several categories. But that didn't stop me from enjoying the experience... some of my fondest memories are just digging around the wasteland looking for hidden nuggets of content while Bob Crosby's voice croons over GNR. That will always be my quintessential experience for this RPG.

That being said, it's easier to simply enjoy Fallout 3 than try to change the opinions of others on it. I long, long ago gave up arguing over it. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of Fallout 3. It matters that I enjoy it. People can dissect and debate it until whatever was fun about the game is entirely gone. Someone else saying it sucks as a Fallout game or just sucks in general cannot take away my enjoyment. I don't need them to enjoy it or agree with me. That's a good stance to take. NMA is an uphill battle with nothing at the top if you want to try and change opinions. But if you're into Fallout 3 and like to talk about it and post content, you'll definitely find some fans here.

 

[lujo]

I support the poster above, and very much disagree with the guy who was going on about Fallout 3 being an improvement upon anything (or modern RPG's being an improvement). It did have a few very cool things (like abandoned vaults) but eh...

The cinematic experience argument sucks balls and always has - I've seen quite a number of graphical overhauls and paradigm shifts over the years, and the only ones that survived were ones which really put something new and meaningful out there. Isometric and turn based games have in fact never been as popular as today. Lol and Dota 2 are currently kings, and for loads and loads of people no visuals improvements made them stop playing dota 1, a seriously dated wc3 mod, up untill they swapped to dota 2, an isometric action game who's engine was specificaly made to replicate even most of the limitations of the old one. Lol just never stopped snowballing in popularity even though both it's graphics and it's aesthetic suck hard. And as for turn based (non-japanese) RPGs - there never were any ever since isomtric was the "new thing". You've got, what, Fallout 1 and 2 and Temple of Elemental evil, that's pretty much it (Baldur's gate and simmilar are NOT turn based). If you look at it, when the few things that are in the beta right now come out and join shadowrun and the other one, there'll be more turn based RPGs made in the last 2 or so years than there were any popular ones ever since computer graphic capabilities got into gear.

In fact, there had been so few worthwhile non-japaneese turn based RPGs that even someone who's as disdainful and cynical about Fallout 2 as I am (and I am extremely cynical about it) tend to still replay it over and over simply because it never had any competition in that regard. My only other option for years was Temple of Elemental Evil, which is too hack and slashy (and the D&D rules aged horribly IMO), and nothing else. Shadowrun is short and shallow, age of decadence is too meh, but untill those two came out the closest thing you could find was Dungeons of Dreadmor - a graphical roguelike (and a smash hit, showing that there is indeed a market for these things). So the way I'm looking at it, the time of turn based RPG's with a decent plot is just arriving (in fact it's likely to arrive this year).

However, I'm extremely cynical about Fallout 2. Extremely. I find it's legendary status to be largely founded on nostalgia and the accessibility of it's interface, and find it terribly lacking in areas it's praised for. I also find it is best enjoyed with a huge emotional distance and think all the lore arguments to be incredibly silly. There's too much stuff in Fallout 2 you're not supposed to take seriously, why people take equaly silly stuff from the same game seriously I'll never understand... I'd say that if both fallout 2 and fallout 3 were redone in the same interface it would take less modding to turn Fallout 3 into something sensible than Fallout 2. As it stands, Fallout 2 is quirky and flawed but kinda worhwhile (with plenty of modding allready done), Fallout 3 is boring and flawed (in much the same ways, tbh) and not very worthwhile due to having missed the interface/writing/aesthetic direction too hard. Which is a wonder to behold really, since it managed to miss it harder than Fallout 2 which is a feat.

Also, people attacking Fallout 3 kind of aren't aware of the huuuuuuge nostalgia filter / lack of a reference pool on their side concerning Fallout 2. It's not that you couldn't roast Fallout 3 as a standalone game, but Fallout 2 is more guilty of stuff Fallout 3 is being acused off except it's written to be so silly, and the interface doesn't immerse you in the same way, so you don't notice. A Fallout 1 fan, back in the day, had no good reason to take someone who started with Fallout 2 seriously (at least where I come from - still know a bunch of people like that, and I dig them). I've seen that before too, me and a friend never bought into Diablo 2, our younger brothers did. Diablo 2 had more features, but they all fell flat, and the game just couldn't beat Diablo 1 for atmosphere in the slightest.

So, to conclude, I've seen Morrowind, so you can't sell me a cinematic "vacation in another world" kind of game unless it can match it for imagination and visuals. And it can't, Morrowind beat you at the first time I fell of the chair when I saw the silt strider - not even Skyrim had anything on that. If you can't do that you have to sell me on the story and the plot. And by my standards Fallout 2 isn't the high watermark of that, it's a rushed, bumbling, contradictory bit of a hackjob best viewed as a satire which I play because of nostalgia and the fact that there hasn't been anythign better turn based out in decades. I don't in fact play it for the plot, and probably wouldn't (even though I do enjoy the plot, I just don't think it's any good most of the time ). So if your world is less exciting than Morrowind, and your story is less charming than Fallout 2, well, the game is pretty pointless. There's other 1st/3rd person stuff out there that's probably better.

 

[Mathius]

Which raise one of the issues that i have with Bethesda.

They sold the game as a roleplaying-game, but provided a GTA with muties instead of cars.
They sold the game as a Fallout game, but lacked the writting skills that defined Fallout in the first place, (i think there is an interview in which a Bethesda dev confessed that the writting wasn't their priority) and bring a big mess with continuity.
They bring us Black & White morality, with black & white costume in a series that always manage to be morally gray.
They told that the story would take place 200 years after a nuclear strike, but it looks like 5 years after a blitz.
The list of their broken promises would go on endlessly.

You may say you like the game, but if you played other episodes, you cannot be oblivious that they failed on everything that could have made a proper Fallout RPG. I am not arguing about the possibility of someone liking Fallout 3, but the fact that Fallout 3 developper made promises that they didn't have the intend or skills to deliver. On the other hand i concede them that they tried to do too many things at once and didn't manage to devellop those concepts, contrary to FOBOS, for instance, that wasn't so much canon breaking, but took much much less risks.

I didn't start playing Fallout 3 until years after it was released, so I'm not familiar with any of the propoganda involved or the interviews, but I will say this.. people had the same complaints about Skyrim being advertised as an RPG, but I _never_ heard that out of Bethesda's mouth and it's not on the packaging. I obviously don't have the time to watch each and every interview with Todd Howard, but personally I think he's a PR loser that will say anything to save his ass. What does this have to do with F3? I'm just curious did Bethesda really push this as an RPG or is that the spins from the stupid reviewers that people bought into?

I have to flat out disagree with you with it not being a "fallout game" though. It might not be what you're used to, but most of the lore is in place enough that you can put down a timeline of events without changing much. And if I'm not mistaken a lot of stuff in FO2 was retconned from FO1.

By the way, the reasons for China to attack USA :

Relations were strained with China even before the Sino-American War, as it raced with the United States to tap the last remaining oil fields deep beneath the Pacific Ocean. The work of Chinese geologists and petroleum exploration engineers was sabotaged by American spies, allowing the United States' energy company Poseidon Oil to erect an Oil Rig of their own and claim the resource. The strained relations eventually lead to the Chinese invasion of Alaska in 2066, where the Anchorage Front Line became the first and most important battlefield.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/China

So I wasn't too far off. That's kinda what I remember from the FO1 intro.