Why I love Skyrim

No no, you're doing it again, the same you always do, you say that it is great and shit at the same time :P.

Anyway, Alduin must have been one of the most boring villains any Bethesda game ever had. Rarw! ME EAT WORLD! GO STOP ME DRAGUNTARD!

Actually, it's you guys who are the weird ones to me. :) It's like you can't think a game is great despite its flaws rather than ruined by them. I think Portal is the only flawless game I've ever played and it's not the BEST because it doesn't have much staying power.

BTW, I've been convinced to do a thread on my playthrough of Dark Souls if anyone wants to read it.
 
The game has pretty landscapes and a nice experience/leveling system to pull people in for hundred of hours. But as far as the story goes, the game is optimized for your first and blind playthrough. Such that, for example, you don't know the fact that random dragon attacks frequency won't change regardless of your heroic feats. Then you can assume that the dragon arrival is a threat to be curbed on, and one way to do that is battling that one chief dragon with the ability to resurrect them (so that presumably dragons killed off-screen by some guards won't be possibly revived).

You must've a really, really awful perception or attention span to think those dragons poses any kind of danger to NPCs in settlement/holds. Considering nearly everyone was essential, and the fact they didn't even script/program the game to reinforce the sense of urgency by making the dragons ACTUALLY destroy settlement/holds, it made it an even worse joke.

See, this is a fallacy that I just don't fall victim to. Simply, in a game where cities are represented by a handful of buildings with two dozen people, and you cannot just walk in and assassinate civil war generals - in such a game you can't treat the state of bits in your computer to be exact representation of the world you are supposed to role-play in. A better perspective on dragon attacks is shown the Skyrim live action trailer.


So to sum up - it's an interesting game for a blind first playthrough. To visit an Ultima7- style world in 3d, see how far can your player character put up with major sidequest lines, and solve the main crisis. The DLCs are diluting the experience a bit, and I would guess they are best played postponed (but if you play with mods they may be required, so you need more mods to delay them; solving issues that wouldn't be a problem without mods at its finest).
 
I do think Skyrim suffers a bit from the fact Helghen isn't a very good Kvatch. It would have been a good idea to have a couple of 'sacrificial' towns to be destroyed in-game. However, when you make one decision you sacrifice the possibilities of another.

@simtam summarizes a lot of my feelings, there.

Bethesda has never literally represented towns and it's not been the same for any major RPG.

Or do you think Shady Sands literally looks like this?

640
 
I do think Skyrim suffers a bit from the fact Helghen isn't a very good Kvatch. It would have been a good idea to have a couple of 'sacrificial' towns to be destroyed in-game. However, when you make one decision you sacrifice the possibilities of another.

@simtam summarizes a lot of my feelings, there.

Bethesda has never literally represented towns and it's not been the same for any major RPG.

Or do you think Shady Sands literally looks like this?

640
But the thing is that Bethesda is like "Oh yeah, that's all the town. Isn't it great?" You are not told of outer walls, of neighboring farms often, not of how huge the quarters are supposed to be... In Fallout 4 they were evn more serious about Diamond City being accurately represented...

And losing the possibilities of another? Well yeah, go at it! That's what replaying the game is for in RPGs! You take the different drastic decisions and do it taking the opposite! Do you want to see such posibilities end up the same way every single playthrough?
 
The sense of urgency of the main quest is dictated solely by the player who can treat the main quest with or without it. That's a toolkit approach to it which I am very happy about. It allows maximum freedom for the player.
No, the sense of urgency in the main quest is just as much Bethesda's fault as it is the player.

If you hear "A dragon is going to be ressurected, hurry and stop it" or "Don't keep the greybeards waiting" there is no sensical reason as to why you'll go off on silly little adventures. Bethesda could have written the plot with naturally occurring breaks, such as "This may be a difficult task, you ought to prepare yourself" or "You should get the lay of the land first" or some other throwaway lines like that, but instead they wrote one urgent quest after another, and gave the player absolutely no opportunities to go off and explore the world.

Bethesda constantly gives you tasks which you need to complete immediatly. Yes the urgency is ultimately fake, but it's ridiculously hard to get immersed in to a game that gives you no opportunities to have a valid in-game reason to explore all the content.
 
Is this argument derived from comparing design checklists for Skyrim and Morrowind? Cause if you play Skyrim it's not like anything stops you from doing side stuff. Lydia won't even scold you for straying off the path (like the Enderal companions do, for example).
 
Cause if you play Skyrim it's not like anything stops you from doing side stuff
The sense of urgency does.

If someone says "A dragon is being ressurected, hurry to this place to stop it!", You aren't exactly going to go off on a side quest, you are going to do what feels the most urgent.

If you honestly go off the trail despite being constantly told not to keep a group waiting, or to urgently stop something, then you are ignoring what every NPC in the game is telling you for no explained reason.
 
If someone says "A dragon is being resurrected, hurry to this place to stop it!", You aren't exactly going to go off on a side quest, you are going to do what feels the most urgent.
That's just one quest out of many. So if, on the other hand, someone says "when I say fetch, I mean delve into dangerous ruins in search of an ancient stone which may or may not be there" it doesn't exactly fill me with a lot of urgency.

Even more so for completing the Greybeards training, which takes you far across the country, and the Greybeards don't seem to know what to do with this new dovahkiin on the block.

"Up for a walk, huh? I'll wait here"
*you come back with half face bitten off*
"You done? Let's go!"
Yeah, just imagine what would Lydia said. I bet you can't avoid thinking about the word "burden". ;)
 
I think though town where bigger in oblivion though. Towns could also would have been bigger also jarls halls could of been differeent rather than all been the same. But yeah I kinda get what you're getting at to be honest I perfered how oblivion was set out was towns and inn along certain paths an droutes. I also like how route where protected by guards on horse witch to be honest we don't really see this in skyrim at all. I kinda like how you had the central city with the varrious routes and other stuff built upon roads. I kinda don't really get skyrim map all though I do like some varriation of citys with whiterun
 
Imagine if some quests in Skyrim could be actually failed because the Dragonborn was to slow ... imagine all the Troglodytes complaining that they couldn't collect their meaningless reward because they spend half a year collecting flowers in the wild. Well, we told you to rescue the farmers wife RIGHT NOW from vampires/trolls/draugr, how long did you thought they would wait for you? Now begone Dragonturd! This village, doesn not want to deal with you anymore!
 
Why isn't this thread in the Order?
Don't people know that these threads with this sick kind of humour belongs there?
 
In fact, one of my biggest complaints about Vampire attacks in Dawnguard was they often killed non-essential NPCs before I could save them.
But where's the fun in that? Where the consistency?

You said Alduin gave this sense of danger and, thus, it's only natural if there's a sense of urgency, that you HAVE to deal with him ASAP. If the game was actually GOOD, then they should have designed the system/imposed rules that reinforce those sense of danger and urgency by making him and the Dragons he resurrected to ACTUALLY start killing NPCs and destroy settlements/holds left and right.

I'm starting to see what Crni saw for a while now. You're completely inconsistent in your own arguments:

1. You said you felt a sense of danger to Alduin, but
2. You complained every time non-essential NPCs getting killed

That's just fucking stupid.

The sense of urgency of the main quest is dictated solely by the player who can treat the main quest with or without it.
This is just even fucking stupider.

Urgency of main quest SHOULD be dictated solely BY the fucking game. This is why FO1 was objectively THE best Fallout game, not just because it's the original but also because it's the only game (I know of) to tackle sense of urgency most right and properly with the Water Chip quest.

The game has pretty landscapes and a nice experience/leveling system to pull people in for hundred of hours. But as far as the story goes, the game is optimized for your first and blind playthrough. Such that, for example, you don't know the fact that random dragon attacks frequency won't change regardless of your heroic feats. Then you can assume that the dragon arrival is a threat to be curbed on, and one way to do that is battling that one chief dragon with the ability to resurrect them (so that presumably dragons killed off-screen by some guards won't be possibly revived).
So basically the game were meant to have EVERYTHING done in one playthrough. Which means it isn't exactly an RPG.

And like have been said before, even in your first playthrough halfway through you SHOULD've seen that the Dragons ain't really a threat. Some NPCs might die, but WAY too many of them were essential and never, NEVER ever I saw them actually destroy settlements/holds. The sense of urgency were false all along, because the game was designed so that anyone can completely anything in ONE playthrough, basically lollygagging despite the Alduin's threat initially gave an impression of a sense of urgency.

See, this is a fallacy that I just don't fall victim to. Simply, in a game where cities are represented by a handful of buildings with two dozen people, and you cannot just walk in and assassinate civil war generals - in such a game you can't treat the state of bits in your computer to be exact representation of the world you are supposed to role-play in. A better perspective on dragon attacks is shown the Skyrim live action trailer.

"Fallacy"? Seriously?

You're just making the game look bad. Of course it's silly to make a game in first/third person perspective, open-world (but still have loading screen lol), only to make cities represented by mere two streets and a handful of NPCs lol. You want to know a solution to this? Go design/get better engine, not hold on to that ancient piece of fucking shit engine.

Also, live action trailer =/= the game.

So to sum up - it's an interesting game for a blind first playthrough. To visit an Ultima7- style world in 3d, see how far can your player character put up with major sidequest lines, and solve the main crisis.
The game would ACTUALLY be interesting if only that's the case.

Bethesda has never literally represented towns and it's not been the same for any major RPG.

Or do you think Shady Sands literally looks like this?

640
That was back when Shady Sands still pretty young, though?

And on topic of accurate representation of cities and population, there was once a talk on how with top-down isometric perspective you can kind of be cheap and put a handful of NPCs on the map and designed the city so you'll only go to the important places. It all comes down to how creative you can be to create an inaccurately represented cities with a handful of NPCs but they still felt like a real one to the player. There are games that accurately represent cities and population despite of top-down isometric perspective, though, like Underrail.

But with an engine where it's first/third person perspective, there's no excuse. You HAVE to make accurately represented cities with accurate population.

Also, 'major RPG'? What?
 
But where's the fun in that? Where the consistency?

You said Alduin gave this sense of danger and, thus, it's only natural if there's a sense of urgency, that you HAVE to deal with him ASAP. If the game was actually GOOD, then they should have designed the system/imposed rules that reinforce those sense of danger and urgency by making him and the Dragons he resurrected to ACTUALLY start killing NPCs and destroy settlements/holds left and right.

No, because that removes PLAYER FREEDOM to explore the world at your leisure. One of the things which makes Skyrim a good game. You don't have to deal with Alduin if you just want to play a thief or a wizard and can ignore that quest if you don't want to play it on your second or third playthrough. Skyrim is a toolbox to make your own fun and journeys--making it more story focused defeats the purpose of having fun your way.

It's like that goddamn awful time limit on finding the Water Chip.

1. You said you felt a sense of danger to Alduin, but
2. You complained every time non-essential NPCs getting killed

No, I reject your arguments and think your vision of game design would make a horrible game to me. Killing non-essential NPCs just willy nilly potentially leaves the land barren of interesting side characters.

Urgency of main quest SHOULD be dictated solely BY the fucking game. This is why FO1 was objectively THE best Fallout game, not just because it's the original but also because it's the only game (I know of) to tackle sense of urgency most right and properly with the Water Chip quest.

Wait, you SERIOUSLY think the time limits from the original 2 games were a good idea? You're not joking. I thought it was universally recorded as a bad idea, including by Tim Cain. Time limits in video games are HORRIBLE ideas.

You want to let people be able to explore at their leisure.

So basically the game were meant to have EVERYTHING done in one playthrough. Which means it isn't exactly an RPG.

It's up to your character roleplaying choice. Which is how it should be.

You're just making the game look bad. Of course it's silly to make a game in first/third person perspective, open-world (but still have loading screen lol), only to make cities represented by mere two streets and a handful of NPCs lol. You want to know a solution to this? Go design/get better engine, not hold on to that ancient piece of fucking shit engine.

Even if they did, I wouldn't want the actual town to cover the entire map. You need to make them smaller so it's easier to traverse them. I, honestly, felt Novigrad was too large to traverse and had way too much in the way of pointless running around streets of houses.

That was back when Shady Sands still pretty young, though?

Surely, you don't think it only has five or six people from a Vault of 1000, though, do you?

And on topic of accurate representation of cities and population, there was once a talk on how with top-down isometric perspective you can kind of be cheap and put a handful of NPCs on the map and designed the city so you'll only go to the important places. It all comes down to how creative you can be to create an inaccurately represented cities with a handful of NPCs but they still felt like a real one to the player. There are games that accurately represent cities and population despite of top-down isometric perspective, though, like Underrail.

When I went to Cornea as a child in Final Fantasy 1 and saw it only had an Inn, a Clinic, a Potion shop, and a couple of houses, I didn't think it had only five people living there. If I was able to get it at five years old, I certainly was able to get it as an adult.

But with an engine where it's first/third person perspective, there's no excuse. You HAVE to make accurately represented cities with accurate population.

Please tell me you're joking. That's insane. Nobody would do that and it would be boring to go through, a bad idea from a game stand-point, and require the players to be morons to necessitate. Nobody actually thinks Diamond City has fifty people. Why would they? It's an abstraction and just because it's in 3d doesn't make it any more likely that way.

Your entire argument seems to be "railroad them into the main quest because of artificial urgency so there's no point in playing ANY of the side content until the main quest is completed."

They at least tried (within their technical limits) in Daggerfall...
300px-Stadtkarte_Daggerfall.PNG

Very true. I think game worlds the size of Great Britain are inferior to hand-crafted smaller ones, though.

Just my opinion.
 
I dunno, I got a sense of his danger when the dragons showed up in holds, murdering people left and right.
This is true. But The problem is no one else feels danger. They all (NPCs) seem oddly calm about their current situation which is civil war plus Goddamn dragons. If it doesn't matter to them then why should it to the dragonborn?
 
I'm starting to see what Crni saw for a while now. You're completely inconsistent in your own arguments:
Yeeeuuuup, I did it before it was cool :smug:!

Everything he says, makes perfectly sense though if you accept that Skyrim is at the same time, the worst AND the best RPG there ever was :p.

No, because that removes PLAYER FREEDOM to explore the world at your leisure. One of the things which makes Skyrim a good game. You don't have to deal with Alduin if you just want to play a thief or a wizard and can ignore that quest if you don't want to play it on your second or third playthrough. Skyrim is a toolbox to make your own fun and journeys--making it more story focused defeats the purpose of having fun your way.
However, there is a good way and a shitty way to deal with that.

Morrowind, was a good way as many people here think it did it right, at least when it came to the main quest and exploration of the game. Creating a false sense of urgency, simply doesn't work with a world that is build on the principle of exploration and distraction. Morrowind embrassed it, rather than creating some fake urgency for the player. The game tells you that Dagoth Ur is a serious threat to Morrowind, but how? Why? And when? Those are left completely open. It's just explained to the player, that he should deal with it at some point, if the player actually wants to fullfill the prophecy.

I also like the fact how the game actually toys with that idea, showing you all the 'failed' Nerrevarines that came before you! So even if YOU fail, there is achance that the next incarnation might do the trick!


In Skyrim, and also Oblivion you face this threat of a demonic/dragon invasion ... that never happens ... which the player has to stop ... or else! Nothing happens ... and a civil war is shown by 5 people whacking on 6 other NPCs, or a demonic invasion are 3 or 4 Deadra fighting 5 or 6 city guards ... If you can't create a believable setting and narrative because the game engine is so limitted then you have really two options here, either work with a better game engine that allows you to create a correct and impressive story OR you tweak the narrative and story so that it works with the engine, see Dragonage 1, where a huge fight is shown, but you never are a real part of it it happens in the background. Bethesda though chose the THIRD option, where they take the shittiest approach of the other two options, using a shitty engine without tweaks to the narrative. And so you end up with a civil war of 10 vs 10 people.

Sometimes I feel that you're not trying to convince us that Skyrim is such a great and awesome RPG, but actually you are trying to convince your self ...
 
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So basically the game were meant to have EVERYTHING done in one playthrough. Which means it isn't exactly an RPG.

Nothing I wrote implied that in Skyrim you can do everything in one playthrough. That's like forgetting the entire Skyrim civil war conflict. However if you pretend that it does not exist, then what you're left is a game structured pretty much like Ultima 7, to stick to my example. In TES setting, though. I understand that if you started playing computer games with Fallout series, you might be a bit disappointed.

Back to the dragons: if not for the Skyrim live action trailer, how would we get the idea that dragons generally should wreak havoc and raze the towns, Smaug style. For those of you that are not familiar with the backstory for Skyrim, it turns out that in the ancient times in Skyrim there was a theocracy worshiping dragons and their chief dragon deity Alduin... They ruled, and what you rule you don't destroy, because then you end up the ruler of some desolation only.
 
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