Fallout game map travel is point A to point B with possible encounters in between. Fantastic for a CRPG. In Fallout depopulated reality to look for an inhabited building amidst ruins, or to look for an inhabited settlement would be like looking for a needle in a haystack (unless following a trail) Wouldn't it be great if you had a huge navigable map of the wasteland landscape down to individual buildings, which you could wander at will (wasting food and time) 99.9% finding nothing, but which you can navigate using the clues and hints discovered during game play, and in which you can use tracking skill to have greater chances of finding clues indicating trails and habitation. I prefer the Fallout world map to the way overland travel was presented in Arcanum, but, at any time the player can stop and "look around" get a 360 view of the skyline reflecting the surrounding landmarks relative to where the character is on the map. The character then can alter his course to, say, that blasted office tower over there. Also, using a system like that, you can have a great time with real world directions such as these - follow this powerline about a day until you go across the big highway, then follow the railroad tracks two days to the east...
Wilderness Search Realism for Fallout 3
- Thread starter Akudin
- Start date
Ehm, no, that wouldn't really be useful since that takes a disproportiate amount of time for the developers.
It's absolutely useless, too. Other than generic small maps, in the way Fallout had.
It's absolutely useless, too. Other than generic small maps, in the way Fallout had.
Not really, landscape can be in part randomly generated filling in the blanks, with the AI generating the look around. What you get in return is the feeling of looking for a needle in the haystack whe looking for soemthing in a wasteland and also, a better feeling for the world to explore. Compare Fallout maps with the world map for BG2
Ehm, what? What does BG's (completely limited) world map have to do with this?Akudin said:
Randomly generated landscape has never looked useful or decent. Also, generating a protocol to decently generate something like that would also take a lot of time. Again: not useful.
Arcanum and Fallout's idea of showing places of interest you pass by o n the world map works much better.
Sarcastro
First time out of the vault
Well fuck me, this is *exactly* what this game needs - pointless wandering for hours, wasting food and time, 99.9% finding nothing. Kinda like Morrowind.Akudin said:
English is obviously not my first language and I'm not wearing glasses at the moment so I'll allow myself the luxury of asking a question before I start laughing: you are not seriously suggesting that BG2 had randomly generated maps, are you?Akudin said:
Sarcastro, BG2 does not have randomly generated maps, just the size of the game with all of its subquetss and side quests, if you add the throne of Bhaal. If you ever tried moving cross country, you get the sense of place and the unknown, even on a patrol where you have a pretty good idea of what you are looking for. This feeling is completely lost in most CRPG's, where wilderness travel and exploration are limited. Post nuclear landscape a la Fallout should be big on the vastness and the unknown, where a traveler can get swallowed.
What the fuck?
BG2 travel was 'click on a location icon to be teleported there instantly'. If that's your idea of "sense of place and the unknown", grow a brain.
Again, what the fuck? Patrol? Bg2? Cross Country? You've been smoking something out of a pipe. A truck's exhaust pipe, by the look of it.
Ooooh yes, and spend HOURS watching sand, dirt, and the occasional tumbleweed, such as was the case in Moronwind. You could also get a Sand Expert perk, after which you're able to identify over 5000 different kinds of sand grains! Fun galore!
BG2 travel was 'click on a location icon to be teleported there instantly'. If that's your idea of "sense of place and the unknown", grow a brain.
Again, what the fuck? Patrol? Bg2? Cross Country? You've been smoking something out of a pipe. A truck's exhaust pipe, by the look of it.
Ooooh yes, and spend HOURS watching sand, dirt, and the occasional tumbleweed, such as was the case in Moronwind. You could also get a Sand Expert perk, after which you're able to identify over 5000 different kinds of sand grains! Fun galore!
It isn't that big, really. Fallout 2 was more expansive, and certainly had more possible ways to play it. Besides, 'all those sidequests' were pretty meaningless considering the fact that their choices had *no consequences*.Akudin said:
Aside from that, what does this have to do with the system you are proposing? Baldur's Gate had a very fixed storyline and no world map to speak of. You just teleported from fixed place to fixed place, with the occasional 'random encounter' in between.
Except that that *isn't feasible* in any way.Akudin said:
Wooz, I don't know what Morrowwind is. Fallout 2 used some randomly generated elements. Sander, just because it hadn't been invented yet, does not mean that it is not feasible. Descent wilderness modding is tough even in a pencil and paper session, but it's not impossible. In the Fallout 1 and 2, but not Tactics, you could click on any point on the mep and would end up at soem randomly generated encounter patch. This needs to be pushed just a little bit for the places to be memorable. Basically a lot of things that CAN be encountered and a way to memorize them for the existing game. It's easy, just survey the things you would encounter out west, and make lists, hundreds long using the game elements. Lists of possible structures with lists of possible encounters and groupings for those encounters plus the debris and clues leading noqwhere that can be found will create an illusion of the great vastness. Just a little bit of structure and AI type programmed responce (bandits will unite and start seekung out the player if he robs their settlements etc) and you have the grand ilusion. Embed a few plot elements in it and you have it.
Take the truck exhaust pipe out of your mouth for a while, and start making sense.
You were talking about "Immersive Travel" in BALDUR'S GATE II: SHADOWS OF AMN. Now, you're babbling something about Fallout 2's "Random Generated Elements".
Explain. Now. It's easy.
You were talking about "Immersive Travel" in BALDUR'S GATE II: SHADOWS OF AMN. Now, you're babbling something about Fallout 2's "Random Generated Elements".
Explain. Now. It's easy.
No, it didn't. It had pre-designed areas at pre-determined locations. The only random thing was the amount and type of creatures you encountered.Akudin said:
Then invent it. This is a bullshit argument. I've shown you *why* it isn't feasible, which isn't just 'it hasn't been done yet'. Unless you show me *how* this can be done, the status quo remains that it can't be done.Akudin said:
No, pre-designed patch with a very limited range. There was nothing random about it. In fact, the place at which clicked determined which type of location you got to see.Akudin said:
...Akudin said:
Are you fucking serious? Do you even know anything *at all* about game design or programming? It isn't just 'take this, and that, and that and throw it all together magically'. You need to make sure that everything fits logically and stylistically, it also needs to be coherent, balanced and *interesting*. You don't get interesting quests from just randomly having things thrown together, and you certainly can't just throw in a few plot elements.
For fuck's sake, man, *think*. This would be an *entirely new game* that's more of a neat little adventure/dungeon crawl than a fucking RPG.
OK, I am not a computer programmer, BUT. Have artists draw 100+ different buildings/floors, use floor plans from the 1950's. Have a list of shades and finishes of the type used in the 50's US Southwest - brick, adobe, whatever. Do the same for topographic features. Organize the type of buildings and density present in the area based on how the area was zoned for use. Take all ofthe available encounters - Bikers, Tribals, Ghouls etc create some organisational form, for each, say 5 ghouls can be one of three things - a war party, scavengers, or pilgrims. Have the overall terrain map, a mid size topographic map, and the gameplay encounter map. Let the computer shade and generate maps based on the terrain classificatiion on the USGS maps. There is cartographic software that can do all that, the only trick is to interface it with the game engine. Artists can go over in and clean out the incosistent/rough parts or give some story/meaning to the existing randomness. Let's see, 175 different structures, seven or eight different architectural styles to render them, twenty or so different floor plans to throw into a different combination into a multi story building. Some will say dungeon crawl extraordinaire, BUT, leave it 99% empty and falling apart, save for a few collapsing stairsa and a radscorion or two jeaded cow here an there, maybe a stalking death claw to break the monotony. Topographic maps follow detail to 10 square meters, showing eaqch structure, so, all the computer would have to do is follow the detail of the real world topo map, not as much work as it seems, and fill in the shading, essentially. That's not too prepostorous, esp if you use the topo map software and translate it into playable game tile, the other variety of encounters is really the compiling problem.
....
Do you accidentally ignore posts or is that a conscious effort on your part? Because, you know, *this is not fucking feasible*.
For fuck's sake, man, you are asking a developer to expend hundreds if not thousands of hours on building something that is *not used usefully, except in very few occasions* and on top of that is done randomly, making it an effective dungeon crawl, which has very little to do with Fallout's intended design.
I'll say it one more time: Fallout already had it right, as did Arcanum. You don't need to build huge expansive wastes, randomly or otherwise (and even though you have *no* knowledge on the subject, you continue to claim that this is easily doable), you can build pre-determined locations with a strong story, maybe put those at random places across the map, and that's all you really need.
Do you accidentally ignore posts or is that a conscious effort on your part? Because, you know, *this is not fucking feasible*.
For fuck's sake, man, you are asking a developer to expend hundreds if not thousands of hours on building something that is *not used usefully, except in very few occasions* and on top of that is done randomly, making it an effective dungeon crawl, which has very little to do with Fallout's intended design.
I'll say it one more time: Fallout already had it right, as did Arcanum. You don't need to build huge expansive wastes, randomly or otherwise (and even though you have *no* knowledge on the subject, you continue to claim that this is easily doable), you can build pre-determined locations with a strong story, maybe put those at random places across the map, and that's all you really need.
You just need to get the existing survey data, already digitized, and translate it into Fallout format for a maore challenging and realistic gaming experience. Why don't you take a look at the professional geodesic software on the market today. Besides,, those design team members get paid by the hour, it's not like ***YOU*** are paying them.
...
Again: are you accidentally this fucking stupid or do you make an effort?
Game companies don't have an infinite amount of money and time to spend on a game. That's limited by (gee) the amount of team members and the amount of money they have to spend on the project (wow, what a fucking surprise). Hence spending money and time on one completely unnecessary part of the game draws money and time away from other *more essential and useful* parts.
Also, professional geodesign software is exactly that: geo*design* software, not geo-magically-randomise software.
Again: are you accidentally this fucking stupid or do you make an effort?
Game companies don't have an infinite amount of money and time to spend on a game. That's limited by (gee) the amount of team members and the amount of money they have to spend on the project (wow, what a fucking surprise). Hence spending money and time on one completely unnecessary part of the game draws money and time away from other *more essential and useful* parts.
Also, professional geodesign software is exactly that: geo*design* software, not geo-magically-randomise software.
I realize that game companies have small staffs and even smaller budgets, hence no BG3 and no F3 as of yet (they have no faith in marketability of those CRPGs to wide public). Read my posts again, I broke away from randomizing, but using REAL topographic data for terrain and floorplans in gameplay. It ay be radically different, but the game engine van be made to work off it. Especially with the advances in computer processing technology. And consider the possibilities snipers firing from 1000 yards away, who have to be tracked and found. Radical new uses for heavy MGs and sniper rifles in game terms. Quit being so close minded, especially for one in such an open minded country, land of the Little Mermaid of all things.
Land of the Little Mermaid?Akudin said:
Also, that's a new one, you don't agree with me so you're 'close-minded'. Nice one.
Anyway, how is this different from what is done in Fallout? Fallout looked at the environment on the world map, and then decided which local map you got. Which is *exactly* what I've already said about twenty times in this thread.
If you're talking about loading in 'real' topographical: nope, doesn't work pal. The world of Fallout does not look like our world topographically, mainly because there have been thousands of nukes fired on it.
If you're talking about full detail topography, er.....no. Again: way too much cost.
Also, if a sniper is firing from 1,000 yards (which is ridiculously far), you'd be dead before you reach him anyway.
Sander,
It's not the disagreeing, it's the expletives. Today's countersnipers have rifles with a flat bullet trajectory of 750 yards (SR-15 or SR-25 US I don't remember which tis was a while ago) and 50 caliber sniper weapons guided by computer that have effective range of 2500 yards and can go through cinderblock walls. Add to that electronic devices, which will point the direction a shot came from and binocs, which will help you discern vegetaton from camoflage netting and tactics involving firing missiles at suspected snipers nests and there you have the latest in infantry tactics for the 1990's. Most of the third world snipers using SVD's fire at about 600 yards. Having said that, no CRPG to date has a combat system that reflects the realities of today's firearms ranges. Fallout Tactics' combat system was GOOD because of its use of cover and concealment.
It's not the disagreeing, it's the expletives. Today's countersnipers have rifles with a flat bullet trajectory of 750 yards (SR-15 or SR-25 US I don't remember which tis was a while ago) and 50 caliber sniper weapons guided by computer that have effective range of 2500 yards and can go through cinderblock walls. Add to that electronic devices, which will point the direction a shot came from and binocs, which will help you discern vegetaton from camoflage netting and tactics involving firing missiles at suspected snipers nests and there you have the latest in infantry tactics for the 1990's. Most of the third world snipers using SVD's fire at about 600 yards. Having said that, no CRPG to date has a combat system that reflects the realities of today's firearms ranges. Fallout Tactics' combat system was GOOD because of its use of cover and concealment.
Wait, now I'm close-minded because I *use* expletives? What the hell?Akudin said:
Yeah, and this has any bearing on:Akudin said:
- Fallout's *50s sci-fi* world which contains *no microchips, so no computer guided targeting on a rifle*
- A 1000 yard shot at you being useful and not just an instant death sentence
how?
No, Fallout Tactics' combat system was mediocre at best, especially since there was far better released already (Jagged Alliance). The 'realities of today's firearms' don't reflect on Fallout's *fictional* and *PnP derived* setting either.Akudin said: