Wilderness Search Realism for Fallout 3

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Sigh there's been a lot of discussion about real time travel. It just won't work! That since Fallout is set on the continental United States and not some fictious island it would be impossible to render realistically and without losing the Fallouty feeling.

Fallout is just too epic!

The same goes for your idea, there's a reason the travel on the world map is compressed. Because it would be tedious any other way. To make things interesting they would have to include a raider around every bend and a scorpion under every rock to make things interesting and that would destroy Fallout's setting.

There's a reason most people are congregated in the townships as it's their best chance for survival. Remember water is scarce in Fallout and the water merchants aren't going to deliver to every tiny homestead. People need resources to survive and they'll go to where the resources are. That plus IIRC all the survivors came from vaults originally (according to the FObileble) maybe not all vault-tec vaults but some sort of shelter. So it's also fairly likely that most communities would of stuck together.

Also remember Fallout's world was pretty much carpet bombed by nukes not the tactical strikes you would get with modern IBCMs. So the landscape, the wastes would be different from our world or real life deserts.

 

[Sander]

Wastelands are never empty, nor are they even WASTED. I love hiking railroad tracks along the industrial blight and past ruined factories. I been to the deserts of the southwest where Fallout takes place.

You can travel into alternate realities? Awesomezzzzzzzz.

Precisely because of the emptiness of the place, any camp and any trail stands out like a sore thumb. Any sign of habitation stays on forever. That is the missing dimension. That might be irrlevant in the real desert except to the archeologists, but it becomes extemely so, in the post nuke world, where wasteland holds hidden tribes and alien technology and other weird encounters, as in Biblical desert and in the world of ancient hinduism after the war of Apocalypse in Bhavagat Gita, it's no accident that the two headed cows are named Brahmin and the first character you encounter in the shady sands is named Adesh.

You don't encounter Aradesh first.
Also, Shady Sands is clearly based on an Indian culture. Hardly the point, or relevant in any way.

Terrain forms the atmosphere. So much so, that the desolateness, the opportunities for cover and the long-range firearms created the feeling of Wild West, that was embodied in Western fiction of Lois L'amour novels. Fallout 1 and 2 have captured their own post apocalypotic atmosphere, but the short periods of travel combined with reasonably large, albeit exotic settlements creates the feel that the Fallout world is settled like ours, for 30 seconds you zip along a map and you are in town, dealing with another ugly mug.

...
Are you really this stupid? That's *days* of travel you're talking about, pal, not just a short while. That's the whole point: travelling in Fallout takes a long fucking time through a lot of nothingness. Did you ever look around the Wasteland in Fallout? Outside of the settlements *there is nothing*. That's part of the setting.

In the Fallout you don't get the feeling that 99% of the people died or of the massiveness of the devastation.

Did you miss the fact that there is *nothing* outside of those very few settlements? That there is an entire ruined city there, completely uninhabited?

Even Fallout Tactic stays away from taking palce int he ruins of Chicago, promised in the opening film. Now, if the Lone Wanderer had spent more of the game time traveling, having to maintain food and water, look for shelter while dodging radscorpions and seeing abandnment, desolation and destruction oin the world scale, the scarcity of the human settlement might sink in a little better.

No, it wouldn't. If you'd have to constantly confront things then you *wouldn't* get the idea of desolation at all. You'd get the exact opposite.

 

[Akudin]

T-Bone, we are talking gametime here, not real time. I am talking about proportion of playtime spent traveling across desolation versus amoutn of time spent interacting with the other people/societies. I didn't say anything about homesteads, or that people wouldn't cluster togethe for survival. I am well aware that travel would take DAYS, but having to roleplay setting up camp each time you stop to sleep WILL bring closer the distances and desolation, as one possible solution. You DON'T have to put everything into straight one on one time, just make the periods of travel less compressed so as you get the sense of disatnce.
Also, a crater from a nuclear explosion where fireball touched the ground would only be 100-300 yards in diameter. Given the nature of the California Desert/Mountains, it would not alter the terrain THAT much, merely add craters and strip off the brushcover. Nuclear Carpet bombing would transform the land a whole lot more if it was done in Wisconsin or the UK, but not in the American Southwest.

Sander, you seem to think that a Wasteland is just an abstraction of NOTHINGNESS. This is NOT the case. The land may be disused and polluted, but it's not ***EMPTY***!!! Especially in the CA desert with the hard packed sand, a candy wrapper will blow in the breeze for years. There are flash floods along the dried river beds called washes, which carry for miles junk and debris from the campsites miles away. You ask about the significance of the Indian village motif. The joke of the East Indians instead of the Native Americans aside, the presence of Adesh and Shady Sands along wiht the messianic names for the player character (Vault Dweller, Chosen One) give the Wasteland a mystical and existential motif, as is evidenced by the background music. Tribal African influences are obvious in the opening soundtrack of the Fallout 2. If the Fallout designers intended the Wasteland to be a mystical/spiritual place, as they did the Player character;s journey, doesn't it stand to reason that more encounters ought to take place in the Wasteland, and not of the Radscorpion and Raider variety. BTW, I said nothing about raiders behind every rock. Also, you talk of an entire destroyed city. The only place where I actually ***DID*** explore urban reuins of actual emptiness and without any significance to plot or story development was in Fallout Tactics, tye urban encounter (Mission #6 I think.)

 

[Sander]

T-Bone, we are talking gametime here, not real time. I am talking about proportion of playtime spent traveling across desolation versus amoutn of time spent interacting with the other people/societies. I didn't say anything about homesteads, or that people wouldn't cluster togethe for survival. I am well aware that travel would take DAYS, but having to roleplay setting up camp each time you stop to sleep WILL bring closer the distances and desolation, as one possible solution. You DON'T have to put everything into straight one on one time, just make the periods of travel less compressed so as you get the sense of disatnce.

No, that would just be boring. Nice once, somewhat interesting twice, completely and utterly frustrating thrice.
Any repetitive element of a game that does not add to the gameplay become boring very quickly. having to set up camp doubly so.

Also, a crater from a nuclear explosion where fireball touched the ground would only be 100-300 yards in diameter. Given the nature of the California Desert/Mountains, it would not alter the terrain THAT much, merely add craters and strip off the brushcover. Nuclear Carpet bombing would transform the land a whole lot more if it was done in Wisconsin or the UK, but not in the American Southwest.

Did you even play this game? Did you look at the Glow or the surrounding network?
Also, a crater would be a hell of a lot bigger than 100-300 yards.

Sander, you seem to think that a Wasteland is just an abstraction of NOTHINGNESS. This is NOT the case. The land may be disused and polluted, but it's not ***EMPTY***!!! Especially in the CA desert with the hard packed sand, a candy wrapper will blow in the breeze for years. There are flash floods along the dried river beds called washes, which carry for miles junk and debris from the campsites miles away.

That's neat for how it is *here and now*. Did you ever stop and think that Fallout was placed in an alternate universe and that what Fallout shows goes for Fallout, not what the real world (tm) here shows?
Here's what Fallout shows: emptiness, with the occasional critter and/or dead body.

You ask about the significance of the Indian village motif. The joke of the East Indians instead of the Native Americans aside, the presence of Adesh and Shady Sands along wiht the messianic names for the player character (Vault Dweller, Chosen One) give the Wasteland a mystical and existential motif, as is evidenced by the background music.

...
'The Vault Dweller' is messianic?
Also, Indian culture is automatically 'mystical'?
In case you hadn't noticed, Fallout stepped away from dealing with anything religious (outside of the Children of the Cathedral), specifically to not hurt people. It is far from a mystical journey and mere presence of an Indian culture is hardly an indicator of a mystical journey.
Are you going to call people who went to Bangladesh once people who went on a mystical and existential journey, or just tourists?

By the way, the soundtrack is mainly influenced by ambient music.

Tribal African influences are obvious in the opening soundtrack of the Fallout 2. If the Fallout designers intended the Wasteland to be a mystical/spiritual place, as they did the Player character;s journey, doesn't it stand to reason that more encounters ought to take place in the Wasteland, and not of the Radscorpion and Raider variety.

No, because *they didn't add them*.
Here's how you test whether or not something should be in Fallout if it easily could have been in the original game:
Was it in there? If no, then it wasn't meant to be in there!

BTW, I said nothing about raiders behind every rock. Also, you talk of an entire destroyed city. The only place where I actually ***DID*** explore urban reuins of actual emptiness and without any significance to plot or story development was in Fallout Tactics, tye urban encounter (Mission #6 I think.)

No, entire ruins scattered throughout the wasteland. Like San Francisco. Or other cities in Fallout 2.
Guess what was in those ruins?
ABSOLUTELY DIDDLY FUCKING SQUAT!

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

T-Bone,

Do you try and insult everyone you meet?

we are talking

Who's we? Got a royalty complex have you?

gametime here, not real time. I am talking about proportion of playtime spent traveling across desolation versus amoutn of time spent interacting with the other people/societies.

I was talking game time as well, funny but I don't fancy playing a game where I spend 75% of it doing nothing but walking around and looking at digital dirt. Get this through your head outside of the settlements and select locations it's a wasteland.

I didn't say anything about homesteads, or that people wouldn't cluster togethe for survival.

You said

but the short periods of travel combined with reasonably large, albeit exotic settlements creates the feel that the Fallout world is settled like ours,

and I pointed out why everyone is in a town and why there's nothing much to do in the wastes so why time is compressed there.

I am well aware that travel would take DAYS,

Are you? Really? Remember this

for 30 seconds you zip along a map and you are in town

Travel on a machine that the game was intended to run on is a lot slower. Don't forget it's an old game made for less powerful computers. FO2 the world map runs too fast depending on your machines performance.

but having to roleplay setting up camp each time you stop to sleep WILL bring closer the distances and desolation, as one possible solution.

No it wouldn't for the same reasons you don't have to make your character go to the loo or eat every few hours. It's tedious enough in real life, if you want to micro mange things that much go play the Sims.

Also, a crater from a nuclear explosion where fireball touched the ground would only be 100-300 yards in diameter. Given the nature of the California Desert/Mountains, it would not alter the terrain THAT much, merely add craters and strip off the brushcover. Nuclear Carpet bombing would transform the land a whole lot more if it was done in Wisconsin or the UK, but not in the American Southwest.

Do what? Are you totally insane? Since the bombs in Fallout are as a fictious technology as the plasma rifles and laser pistols the only guide to what they'd do to the landscape is in Fallout. How the wasteland is depicted in Fallout is the way the bombs would affect the terrain in Southern California. Did you see many recognisable landmarks in the maps? Did you look at the world map, did you notice how the coastline had changed?

The only place where I actually ***DID*** explore urban reuins of actual emptiness and without any significance to plot or story development was in Fallout Tactics, tye urban encounter (Mission #6 I think.)

FOT's urban random encounter maps are pretty much just expanded versions of the one's in Fallout.

 

[Akudin]

T-Bolt, I stand corrected.
Sander, get your hands on the US Army Manual calleed Effects Of Nuclear Weapons, should be declassified by now, play with those engineering formulas, plug in yield in Megatons, see the size of the crater. Pretty small, given the size of devastation, eh? Especially given the rock hard natuire of the CA/AZ desert.
That Ambient Music in the beginning of F2 is influenced by the African music the way Surf guitar music was influenced by Spanish music. Amazing how clean, how Western-European like you want your wasteland to be - nothing in the wasteland, but an occasional body. And nothing should break the idyllic garden of the F and F2. How about millions of unburied bodies, pestilence, starvation and setlements of raiderts and survivors trying to stay hidden in the wasteland the best they could? Okay, maybe the daily tedium is not the way to go, but there has to be another way to force the player travel more in the outdoors. How many people woud like to actually traverse the landscape and follow landmarks across the wasteland rather than flying across the large scale map as if they were on autopilot? Mysticism does not have to have anything to do with religiousity, and why don't you as Boyarsky or another of the game designers i the intended the game to have messianic/mystical overtones, if only as s atire. That Goathead armor mask in F2 is also purely coincidental? Or you really fail to see it?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

As I've said there's already been plenty of discussion about world map vs other type of travel. So far majority has been for the world map, go read some of the other threads.

Though it's probably all moot given who is developing the game.

What the *@#? Goathead armour mask?

 

[Morpoggel]

Sander, get your hands on the US Army Manual calleed Effects Of Nuclear Weapons, should be declassified by now, play with those engineering formulas, plug in yield in Megatons, see the size of the crater. Pretty small, given the size of devastation, eh? Especially given the rock hard natuire of the CA/AZ desert.

As said before, Fallout is an alternate universe. With alternate technology. Which mean they invented alternate bombs. Which have alternate effects than our bombs.

Amazing how clean, how Western-European like you want your wasteland to be

Is that an assault on Western-European people?

How about millions of unburied bodies

If I recall correctly, Fallout was something like 60 years after the bombs fell? And a lot of bombs fell. I wonder how many bodies would be left after 60 years.

Unless ofcourse everybody decided to scatter across the country during the bombing... but then how would they have died... hmm... radiation... maybe some sniper, 1000 yards further on down the road?

setlements of raiderts and survivors trying to stay hidden in the wasteland the best they could?

Which is most likely in caves or underground facilities. Yeah... you'd probably notice an underground cave full of raiders when walking through the Wasteland... trying not to get shot by a sniper, a 1000 yards to your left...

That Goathead armor mask in F2 is also purely coincidental? Or you really fail to see it?

Wait, you mean the Advanced Power Armor's Helmet? I'm looking at the Fallout box right now (thank God for never cleaning my desk) and it looks more like a hawk... combined with a girl with her hair in a really old-fashioned way...

Oh my God... APA is for homosexual animal huggers... how truly reiligious.

Anyhoo, me mentioning your 1000 yard snipers is not me approving of it... it's more like poking fun at it. Especially when you said that they had to be in it because they are in real life. Or well, we had to keep in mind that we could get shot from a 1000 yards by a sniper because that could also happen in real life? Well, in real life we can get hit by a car... does that mean that every street I cross, in a bombed out city in the middle of nowhere where the only sign of life was a dead rat, I have to be careful not to get hit by a car? Not to mention watching out for that sniper... who is in that building a 1000 yards away. Cause that could happen in real life.

Imagine both of it happening at the same time...

 

[Akudin]

T-bolt, I realize the realities of the game the likelihood of the sequel, still it doesn't hurt to wish for something, does it? While Black Isle Studio was still in business, I sent them a four or five page letter outlining some of the improvements that could be made to the world map. I never heard back nor do I know if anyone read it. Goathead is the helmet from the advanced power armor in F2, doesn't it look like that?

Morpoggel, unlike you, I LIKE gaming in a world that bears SOME semblance to realism. And you are absolutely correct, NOBODY worries about those pesky snipers until the guy you are standing next to having a cup of coffee collapses in an explosion of blood and pulverized flesh all over you and you hardly even hear the gunshot, never mind realizing what is happening. Then people start keeping their heads down... for maybe three weeks. War never changes... Yes 60 years after the fact the environment should appear cleaner, except that in places that are NOT desert, and corspes decay better, where they buried 1000's in mass graves about 70 years ago, they have ecological disaters where acres of land are eroding off exposing miles of half decayed corpses to the elements. Those third world countries don't have the fund$$$$ to do a clean up so it just gets cordoned off and washed away in the rain down the water basin. Think what would happen in a dry envirnemnt where corpses don't decay to dust. But hold it... they don't call them GHOULS for nothing. The thing yoiu are forgetting though, is that after primary casualties, there will be secondary casualties on mass scale (people in need of medical care who won't receive it) and third generation mass death - think entire villages wiped out due to starvation, pollution of their water, and infections such as stre peasily treated with anribiotics, for which there will be no cure. Also think of those people infected with HEV, who would not mutate inthe right direction and would die insetad ina mass of tumors. But I understand, all this is too grim for a CRPG, all ***I*** was asking for was just a bit more realism to make the game more challenging, but you'd rather escape into make-believe. Which is pretty strange that most people will like Fallout series precisely for its realism and sarcasm. The most intense, terifying and memorable F1 experience for me was exploring the Big Glow. Know wy? Because they DID their research and I saw a thing or two that scared the %&it out of me. That was Fallout at its finest! Ignorance is bliss, eh Morpoggel?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Amazing how clean, how Western-European like you want your wasteland

Why shouldn't Fallout's wasteland be like that? It's set on the continental United States and one of the strongest themes is Americana.

As said before, Fallout is an alternate universe. With alternate technology. Which mean they invented alternate bombs. Which have alternate effects than our bombs.

Not to forget an alternate universe 80 years ahead of ours at the time of the war. With approximately 120 years from divergance to develop those different technologies.

How about millions of unburied bodies

If I recall correctly, Fallout was something like 60 years after the bombs fell? And a lot of bombs fell. I wonder how many bodies would be left after 60 years.

Again 80 odd years, and another 80 until FO2. Though since they were hit by multiple nukes and not tactical strikes there wouldn't be a lot of bodies left to start with.

T-bolt, I realize the realities of the game the likelihood of the sequel, still it doesn't hurt to wish for something, does it?

It does when you keep posting such stupidity and get my blood pressure up.

While Black Isle Studio was still in business, I sent them a four or five page letter outlining some of the improvements that could be made to the world map. I never heard back nor do I know if anyone read it.

Do you blame them? Only time I've ever done something like that (to a Star Trek magazine about Voyager) I was totally pissed and off my trolley. I doubt anyone read that either.

Goathead is the helmet from the advanced power armor in F2, doesn't it look like that?

Nope I thought it was insectile, the enclave troopers are even called bugmen at one point.

Morpoggel, unlike you, I LIKE gaming in a world that bears SOME semblance to realism. And you are absolutely correct, NOBODY worries about those pesky snipers until the guy you are standing next to having a cup of coffee collapses in an explosion of blood and pulverized flesh all over you and you hardly even hear the gunshot, never mind realizing what is happening. Then people start keeping their heads down... for maybe three weeks. War never changes... Yes 60 years after the fact the environment should appear cleaner, except that in places that are NOT desert, and corspes decay better, where they buried 1000's in mass graves about 70 years ago, they have ecological disaters where acres of land are eroding off exposing miles of half decayed corpses to the elements. Those third world countries don't have the fund$$$$ to do a clean up so it just gets cordoned off and washed away in the rain down the water basin. Think what would happen in a dry envirnemnt where corpses don't decay to dust. But hold it... they don't call them GHOULS for nothing. The thing yoiu are forgetting though, is that after primary casualties, there will be secondary casualties on mass scale (people in need of medical care who won't receive it) and third generation mass death - think entire villages wiped out due to starvation, pollution of their water, and infections such as stre peasily treated with anribiotics, for which there will be no cure.

Shit can't you use paragraphs? I don't care what you first language is, didn't you learn some sort of grammatical structure?

Again in Fallout the world was hit by multiple, hundreds if not thousands of nukes. Not the tactical strikes of ICBMs. According to the Bileble the only survivors were the people in vaults (IIRC). Probably why there's so few ruins still standing.

Also think of those people infected with HEV, who would not mutate inthe right direction and would die insetad ina mass of tumors.

FEV wasn't released? The only people who came into contact with FEV became super mutants, floaters, centaurs and the Master.

But I understand, all this is too grim for a CRPG, all ***I*** was asking for was just a bit more realism to make the game more challenging, but you'd rather escape into make-believe. Which is pretty strange that most people will like Fallout series precisely for its realism and sarcasm. The most intense, terifying and memorable F1 experience for me was exploring the Big Glow. Know wy? Because they DID their research and I saw a thing or two that scared the %&it out of me. That was Fallout at its finest! Ignorance is bliss, eh Morpoggel?

Realism? When you have Hulk like supermutants, zombie like ghouls around? With scifi weapons and monsters and you stand toe to toe firing at each other with miniguns? Fallout was never about a realistic PA setting, but a 50's pulp writer's view of the future after an apocalyse.

People (meaning me) like it for it's setting, attention to detail, dark ironic humour, freedom of play and perhaps most importantly capturing the PnP feeling on the PC. Not realism.

 

[Morpoggel]

Damn, I put all that sarcasm and wit in that post for nothing...

 

[Sander]

T-Bolt, I stand corrected.
Sander, get your hands on the US Army Manual calleed Effects Of Nuclear Weapons, should be declassified by now, play with those engineering formulas, plug in yield in Megatons, see the size of the crater. Pretty small, given the size of devastation, eh? Especially given the rock hard natuire of the CA/AZ desert.

That's neat. Now *look at Fallout*. Look at the world map. Do it. Go on, it won't hurt. Now look at the Glow. Do you see the amount of devastation? Yes? You do? Good boy.

That Ambient Music in the beginning of F2 is influenced by the African music the way Surf guitar music was influenced by Spanish music. Amazing how clean, how Western-European like you want your wasteland to be - nothing in the wasteland, but an occasional body. And nothing should break the idyllic garden of the F and F2. How about millions of unburied bodies, pestilence, starvation and setlements of raiderts and survivors trying to stay hidden in the wasteland the best they could?

*sigh*
That doesn't fit Fallout, that's not what Fallout is about either. Fallout is about the big, empty wasteland. The vastnesss of it. Really, it is. There's a reason why you don't come across 'millions of unburied bodies, pestilence, starvation': it isn't supposed to be there.

Okay, maybe the daily tedium is not the way to go, but there has to be another way to force the player travel more in the outdoors. How many people woud like to actually traverse the landscape and follow landmarks across the wasteland rather than flying across the large scale map as if they were on autopilot?

Mysticism does not have to have anything to do with religiousity, and why don't you as Boyarsky or another of the game designers i the intended the game to have messianic/mystical overtones, if only as s atire.

It was originally going to focus more on conspiracies, however, they dropped that. It has very little to almost nothing to do with mysticism. The only mystic part of Fallout was the Children of the Cathedral.

Understand this: mysticism = not what Fallout is about.

That Goathead armor mask in F2 is also purely coincidental? Or you really fail to see it?

....
You are a moron. A true, and utter moron who will grasp at any dumb as shit straw to try to 'prove' his point.

Morpoggel, unlike you, I LIKE gaming in a world that bears SOME semblance to realism. And you are absolutely correct, NOBODY worries about those pesky snipers until the guy you are standing next to having a cup of coffee collapses in an explosion of blood and pulverized flesh all over you and you hardly even hear the gunshot, never mind realizing what is happening. Then people start keeping their heads down... for maybe three weeks. War never changes... Yes 60 years after the fact the environment should appear cleaner, except that in places that are NOT desert, and corspes decay better, where they buried 1000's in mass graves about 70 years ago, they have ecological disaters where acres of land are eroding off exposing miles of half decayed corpses to the elements. Those third world countries don't have the fund$$$$ to do a clean up so it just gets cordoned off and washed away in the rain down the water basin. Think what would happen in a dry envirnemnt where corpses don't decay to dust.

Right, and what's the relevance for *Fallout*'s world and setting here? Huh?
Oh, right, absolutely nothing.

But hold it... they don't call them GHOULS for nothing. The thing yoiu are forgetting though, is that after primary casualties, there will be secondary casualties on mass scale (people in need of medical care who won't receive it) and third generation mass death - think entire villages wiped out due to starvation, pollution of their water, and infections such as stre peasily treated with anribiotics, for which there will be no cure.

*sigh*
Does this happen in Fallout? Why, no, it doesn't. Does this have anything to do with Fallout?
Why, no, in fact, it doesn't.
Get a fucking clue, idiot!

Also think of those people infected with HEV, who would not mutate inthe right direction and would die insetad ina mass of tumors.

Do you know anything about Fallout at all?

I'll try to explain this one more time: Fallout is a *fictional* universe. So you look at what is fitting for that *fictional* universe not dor our real universe.

 

[Akudin]

Granted, Fallout is fiction, but it doesn't mean that it can't be realistic. I like and want realism, that's what I want as a consumer and my wants are as valid as yours, except that it may weigh more in the end because I probably have more buck$$$$ than you and could probably pay more for the F3 that I want than you.

If the Fallout is supposed to be great vastness and emptiness, then the way long range travel is done in the game terms, this vastness is NOT emphasized.

Finally, the suggestions I sent to Black isle were not angry and demanding or intolerant as the NMA seems to be. I just outlined how the world map could be set up so as to make the wilderness travel experience in the game more real for the player. Land navigation was emphasized more than then the daily chores. The process was more text based and less videogame-like, actually unlike anything I've seen on the market. I don't play a lot of videogames. BTW Fallout was researched more in depth and done more realistically with regards to post nuke effects than you would know.

 

[Morpoggel]

Granted, Fallout is fiction, but it doesn't mean that it can't be realistic.

Contradiction in terms?

I like and want realism, that's what I want as a consumer and my wants are as valid as yours

Well, maybe you oughta go play another videogame then...

because I probably have more buck$$$$ than you and could probably pay more for the F3 that I want than you.

Based on what?

If the Fallout is supposed to be great vastness and emptiness, then the way long range travel is done in the game terms, this vastness is NOT emphasized.

You think? I thought that travel was taking a pretty long time already... except when you had the car...

 

[Sander]

Granted, Fallout is fiction, but it doesn't mean that it can't be realistic. I like and want realism, that's what I want as a consumer and my wants are as valid as yours, except that it may weigh more in the end because I probably have more buck$$$$ than you and could probably pay more for the F3 that I want than you.

Strike one for trolling.
Come up with some actual arguments related to Fallout's design rather than "I think I have more money so I win!!!!!"

If the Fallout is supposed to be great vastness and emptiness, then the way long range travel is done in the game terms, this vastness is NOT emphasized.

Bullshit. It takes days to travel from one town to another, the fact that you are too focused on 'OMG it only takes 30 seconds here' is a reflection of you, not of the game.

If you stop anywhere in the wasteland of Fallout outside of a town you will find absolutely nothing. It is meant to be empty.

Finally, the suggestions I sent to Black isle were not angry and demanding or intolerant as the NMA seems to be. I just outlined how the world map could be set up so as to make the wilderness travel experience in the game more real for the player. Land navigation was emphasized more than then the daily chores. The process was more text based and less videogame-like, actually unlike anything I've seen on the market.

"I sent a suggestion to Black Isle and it was awesomezzzzz!!!!"
That's neat for you, but doesn't reflect at all on the bullshit you've been spouting in this thread?

I don't play a lot of videogames. BTW Fallout was researched more in depth and done more realistically with regards to post nuke effects than you would know.

Oh really? And where, exactly, did you get this wonderful inside information? Because, you know, Super Mutants, Deathclaws and radscorpions aren't exactly signs of scientific study into the effects of radiation but stem from 50s pulp sci-fi.

 

[Akudin]

Morpoggel, what makes any fiction great is the paradox of the "untrue truths". What Hemingway writes may be untrue in that it never happened but Hemingway writes about real life and people and what he says in his writing about life still holds true today. That's why his fiction never gets dated. In the same way, any good fiction has in it seeds of real. So does Fallout, and it has as much realism about contemporary THIS WORLD California as it does about the world of the 50's fallout shelters. That's what makes Fallout great.

I, for one am willing to pay $300 bucks to see an F3 game in the manner of the F and F Tactics, moaniung and groaniung I could cough up $500-$1000 for a videogame. I am not sure how many people participate int he NMA, but there seems to be 31000 posts in the News Section. Assuming that there are 1000 Dedicated Fallout fans on this site. If I had one hundred friends, and I wanted something real bad, I would pass the hat for a PRIVATE SUBSCRIPTION for the F3 game. After working some of the details about game design protocol, the rights of the sharehoilders (other fans) and legalities (legal expenses would be free because I fully expedct at least some Fallout fans to be practicing lawyers who would gladly contribute their time and expertise... With 300 thousand dollars and several half-finished Fallout projects on the drawing board, are you going to tell me that it would be ***IMPOSSIBLE*** to create F3 in Poland and get the game CD's to those who paid into it? Or is that you are unwilling or unable to contribute and organize yourselves??? I know for a fact, that I easily contribute $100 per title, 300 per title to see al of the Dungeons and Dragons modules released in the BG format so that I can play through them. Would you? Or is it ***TOO MUCH*** real life has got you by the proverbial...????

Yes, Morpoggel, the travel counter runs into days and weeks, but you don't really feel the passage of time., as you do when you interact with other characters in the settled areas.

Sander, studies into radiation have shown that cockroaches would not inherit the earth after WWIII, but scorpions would. Ask Leonard Boyarsky about where some of his influences came from. Same place where insipartion for the X-files came from. If you LIKED playing Fallout, try to find and read a 1970's sci-fi novel, Inhabited Island. Also see the part about the untrue truths.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I, for one am willing to pay $300 bucks to see an F3 game in the manner of the F and F Tactics, moaniung and groaniung I could cough up $500-$1000 for a videogame.

Oh not this old crap again. Ah sod I can't even be bothered to try and educate you. Just send us your $1000 and we'll see it get's to the right people.

I am not sure how many people participate int he NMA, but there seems to be 31000 posts in the News Section.

From the same 30-50 regular posters and a few hundred 1 post and gone flyby nights.

 

[Sander]

Morpoggel, what makes any fiction great is the paradox of the "untrue truths". What Hemingway writes may be untrue in that it never happened but Hemingway writes about real life and people and what he says in his writing about life still holds true today. That's why his fiction never gets dated. In the same way, any good fiction has in it seeds of real. So does Fallout, and it has as much realism about contemporary THIS WORLD California as it does about the world of the 50's fallout shelters. That's what makes Fallout great.

Realism in fiction actually dates the fiction and makes it bound to the period it was written in.
Other than that, there's a lot of things that make Fallout great, realism is hardly one of those things.

I, for one am willing to pay $300 bucks to see an F3 game in the manner of the F and F Tactics,

IRONY!

moaniung and groaniung I could cough up $500-$1000 for a videogame. I am not sure how many people participate int he NMA, but there seems to be 31000 posts in the News Section. Assuming that there are 1000 Dedicated Fallout fans on this site. If I had one hundred friends, and I wanted something real bad, I would pass the hat for a PRIVATE SUBSCRIPTION for the F3 game. After working some of the details about game design protocol, the rights of the sharehoilders (other fans) and legalities (legal expenses would be free because I fully expedct at least some Fallout fans to be practicing lawyers who would gladly contribute their time and expertise... With 300 thousand dollars and several half-finished Fallout projects on the drawing board, are you going to tell me that it would be ***IMPOSSIBLE*** to create F3 in Poland and get the game CD's to those who paid into it? Or is that you are unwilling or unable to contribute and organize yourselves??? I know for a fact, that I easily contribute $100 per title, 300 per title to see al of the Dungeons and Dragons modules released in the BG format so that I can play through them. Would you? Or is it ***TOO MUCH*** real life has got you by the proverbial...????

You're a fucking retard. It cost Bethesda over a million dollars to even acquire the license.
Other than that, here's what'll happen if you let Fallout fans pay and then design the game:
'I want this in it!'
'No, I need this!'
'No, we need this!'
'I'm drawing out'
'I want my money back'
'Whoops, we don't have enough money to finish the product. Too bad people, you're fucked.'

Also, take a look at the Modding section and tell me that the Fallout community isn't making its own games.

Yes, Morpoggel, the travel counter runs into days and weeks, but you don't really feel the passage of time., as you do when you interact with other characters in the settled areas.

*You* don't feel the passage of time, I did, as did Morpoggel obviously. Just because your imagination is too limited to accept anything other than 'realism' and 'I must actually spend time doing nothing to get the idea I did nothing' doesn't mean everyone else's is.

Sander, studies into radiation have shown that cockroaches would not inherit the earth after WWIII, but scorpions would. Ask Leonard Boyarsky about where some of his influences came from. Same place where insipartion for the X-files came from.

Bullshit. Here's what Leon said in the developer profile on this very site:
"I was really influenced by “The Road Warrior”, “The City of Lost Children”, and “Brazil” in terms of movies, and the comic book series “Hard Boiled”."
Here's what Tim Cain wrote on usenet:
"
Seriously, the artists just thought that 50's tech looked cool. So they set out to make a future
science that looked like what the Golden Era of science fiction thought that future science would
look like (if you can follow that sentence). Vacuum tubes, ray guns, mutants, the whole works. And
I think they succeeded quite well. "
Don't bother making up some stuff about influences, Akudin, when we've got the actual quotes here.

If you LIKED playing Fallout, try to find and read a 1970's sci-fi novel, Inhabited Island. Also see the part about the untrue truths.

Untrue truths? What the fuck?

 

[Akudin]

Sander, realism does not make fiction dated. Just look at Hemingway/ For Whom the Bell Tolls is still rlevant today and describes covert ops realities today as it was back in the 1930's. That's why FICTION stories like Somerset Maugham's Ashenden, the British Agent was requird reading at the OSS school a generation after its publication. It's the surface realism of detail that makes fiction dated. Untrue truths, true lies. The essence of realism.

Forget the Million Dollar license, you can get eround it, by sticking to non-commercial and community oriented. How much money would it take to bring all the mods and After The Fall to palyable completion? Consider using the offshore labor. You get around the fan base eating itself by eatablishing the protocol for fan rights and getting the overwhelming majority to agree on the Fallout conventions, which designers must use as protocol. How many ARE there in the NMA community and how much money are they willing to put up for the F3 -clone project? Has anybody tried canvassing them? To anbody doubting this idea, I suggest you look at Tim Yohanan and the MAXIMUMROCKNROLL zine, at its heyday, when he was still alive in the late 80's and early 90's. He ran it as a non-profit foundation for DIY left leaning punk rockers, that was inspired by the 50 somethings, written by the 30 somethings for the teen age somethings. He dutifully accounted for all the funds that he received? mostly from the sales of his zine. His fund maintained about 150 grand in its coffers. Would THAT amount be enough to produce F3 or are you going toa rgue against THAT as well???

 

[Wooz]

I miss Rosh.