Would Fallout 4 have been better as a Settlement focused Spin off?

[Shardik]

I meant more in the way how new members came here and made the thread to discuss Fallout 4 in the way that has been discussed to hell and back. But that's just me.

One of the big reasons why many new members came here in the first place was that this is a forum where they could criticize FO4 without having to worry about being harassed, threatened, dog-piled and ban hammered by fanboys on Beth's forums, other games sites, reddit, etc. So yeah, they're going to vent, probably about a lot of things that have been discussed to death already.

Some of them will unload and then move on, much relieved by the chance to finally vent. Others will decide they like the community and will stick around, and in time start talking about other stuff besides how much they hate FO4.

 

[SpecialHands]

Well then you should love Fallout 4 because that's exactly what it is. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. That is exactly what the game plays like. It's a settlement crafting game with Borderlands-like FPS/story elements.

You're describing exactly what Fallout 4 is. And the amount of Workshop paid mod DLC further demonstrates this.

This is of course, just my personal opinion.

How is F4 a 'decent' build and manage? You have limited crafting options, lifeless settlers and the same 4 settlement quests repeated. I don't know why you keep mentioning Borderlands when talking about the story, as far as I remember you were just searching for treasure in Borderlands.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

I don't know why you keep mentioning Borderlands when talking about the story, as far as I remember you were just searching for treasure in Borderlands.

Because 99% of Fallout 4's quests involve "kill loot return" to the point that it's pretty much Bored-erlands only singleplayer.

How is F4 a 'decent' build and manage? You have limited crafting options, lifeless settlers and the same 4 settlement quests repeated.

Ok fair enough. Fallout 4 is an indecent settlement crafting game with Borderlands-like elements.

Then to answer your question "If Fallout 4 was really _____ would it have been better received?" - No. Because Fallout fans expect Fallout games.

If you release a Rollercoaster Tycoon game that is a gritty, Call of Duty-style FPS when the fans have been waiting 7 years for another Rollercoaster simulator, then the fans are going to be upset and the only people who are happy with the new game will be Call of Duty FPS fans.

 

[SpecialHands]

Because 99% of Fallout 4's quests involve "kill loot return" to the point that it's pretty much Bored-erlands only singleplayer.

Ok fair enough. Fallout 4 is an indecent settlement crafting game with Borderlands-like elements.

Then to answer your question "If Fallout 4 was really _____ would it have been better received?" - No. Because Fallout fans expect Fallout games.

If you release a Rollercoaster Tycoon game that is a gritty, Call of Duty-style FPS when the fans have been waiting 7 years for another Rollercoaster simulator, then the fans are going to be upset and the only people who are happy with the new game will be Call of Duty FPS fans.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Now you're just being ridiculous.

That is disingenuous.

 

[SpecialHands]

That is disingenuous.

Do you know what the word means?

"
disingenuous
ˌdɪsɪnˈdʒɛnjʊəs/
adjective

1. not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

I can assure you pal, I was being very sincere with my response to your ridiculous statement.

 

[Earth]

What was ridiculous about it? The Rollercoaster Tycoon comparison or saying the whole game is "Kill, Loot, Return"?

 

[SpecialHands]

What was ridiculous about it? The Rollercoaster Tycoon comparison or saying the whole game is "Kill, Loot, Return"?

The Rollercoaster Tycoon bit is what I was referring to, although saying the game is just kill, loot, return is kinda silly too because it's removing what the quest actually is and narrowing it down into containing elements that virtually the bulk of quests in NV featured too. You're nearly always going to have to return to the quest giver (unless it's a find quest) and you're nearly always going to encounter enemies you normally have to kill and you're going to nearly always take items from them.

 

[Earth]

The Rollercoaster Tycoon bit is what I was referring to, although saying the game is just kill, loot, return is kinda silly too because it's removing what the quest actually is and narrowing it down into containing elements that virtually the bulk of quests in NV featured too. You're nearly always going to have to return to the quest giver (unless it's a find quest) and you're nearly always going to encounter enemies you normally have to kill and you're going to nearly always take items from them.

Except that just isn't true. Most New Vegas quests usually give you a variety of ways to complete quests that don't involve killing. Not sure you can say the same for Fallout 4 quests.

The Rollercoaster Tycoon example is accurate. Taking an isometric turn-based role-playing game and turning it into a rail-roaded first-person-shooter with minecraft elements is going to piss off fans of the originals, but maybe fans of Call of Duty might like it. You take Rollercoaster Tycoon and turn it into open-world sandbox game more akin to Minecraft than the originals, you're gonna piss off the original fans. You might make new fans, but you'll probably lose the old ones.

 

[SpecialHands]

Except that just isn't true. Most New Vegas quests usually give you a variety of ways to complete quests that don't involve killing. Not sure you can say the same for Fallout 4 quests.

The Rollercoaster Tycoon example is accurate. Taking an isometric turn-based role-playing game and turning it into a rail-roaded first-person-shooter with minecraft elements is going to piss off fans of the originals, but maybe fans of Call of Duty might like it. You take Rollercoaster Tycoon and turn it into open-world sandbox game more akin to Minecraft than the originals, you're gonna piss off the original fans. You might make new fans, but you'll probably lose the old ones.

Rollercoaster Tycoon going from a fun build and manage to a gritty first person shooter is not the same thing as A gritty post apoc iso CRPG with guns turning into a 'gritty' post apoc FPS with guns. It's a stupid comparison and doesn't hold water.

He didn't say every quest finished with killing/looting/returning. He said every quest had one or more of those elements. Are you telling me the majority of new vegas quests do not involve (not end with) one or more of those? Are you telling me most enemies in NV just ignore you unless you choose to engage? That you seldom have to return to the quest giver?

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Except that just isn't true. Most New Vegas quests usually give you a variety of ways to complete quests that don't involve killing. Not sure you can say the same for Fallout 4 quests.

The Rollercoaster Tycoon example is accurate. Taking an isometric turn-based role-playing game and turning it into a rail-roaded first-person-shooter with minecraft elements is going to piss off fans of the originals, but maybe fans of Call of Duty might like it. You take Rollercoaster Tycoon and turn it into open-world sandbox game more akin to Minecraft than the originals, you're gonna piss off the original fans. You might make new fans, but you'll probably lose the old ones.

And you don't even have to use the analogy to compare Fallout 4 to 1 and 2. They destroyed everything good about Fallout 3 and New Vegas as well. The jump from Fallout 3/New Vegas to Fallout 4 alienates fans in the same way.

Rollercoaster Tycoon going from a fun build and manage to a gritty first person shooter is not the same thing as A gritty post apoc iso CRPG with guns turning into a 'gritty' post apoc FPS with guns. It's a stupid comparison and doesn't hold water.

He didn't say every quest finished with killing/looting/returning. He said every quest had one or more of those elements. Are you telling me the majority of new vegas quests do not involve (not end with) one or more of those? Are you telling me most enemies in NV just ignore you unless you choose to engage? That you seldom have to return to the quest giver?

It's a great analogy that definitely "holds water." Fallout 4 is the equivalent of turning X-COM into a terrible FPS franchise that is titled "XCOM" and is set in the same universe. You know, like Bureau Declassified - a game which no XCOM fans asked for and generally didn't like.

99% of Fallout 4's quests are "kill loot return." They could be entirely procedurally generated rather than written by a person. After over 100 hours of this, I went and played Fallout New Vegas again and yes, there are a LOT more New Vegas quests that do not involve this Bored-erlands formula. The amount of people you can talk to and interact with is staggering compared to Fallout 4.

The charts comparing New Vegas quests to Fallout 4 quests speak themselves. They've been posted here and elsewhere many times.

 

[Millim]

I think I said this is another thread, but I would have been happy if the Vault Mobile game was a sims like side game, maybe costing £3 or so where you build the Vault and you get the experiment on them as such.
In it, you play the Overseer and the game retains the same Isometric experience as the older games.

I would have bought something like that at the first chance I could.
In fact, that would have made me believe that Bethesda could achieve something that the spin-off games couldn't.
But that would have been too much work for them.

But can you imagine the possibilities that a little side series like that could entail? We could have then had a sequel of such where we look after our own Settlement, put Sheriffs in charge, deal with the in town fighting while also defending the Town against Raiders and Super Mutants.

 

[Earth]

He didn't say every quest finished with killing/looting/returning. He said every quest had one or more of those elements. Are you telling me the majority of new vegas quests do not involve (not end with) one or more of those? Are you telling me most enemies in NV just ignore you unless you choose to engage? That you seldom have to return to the quest giver?

The returning part is seriously irrelevant. What Irwin John Finster is saying when he says "return" is "rinse and repeat". Fallout 4 quests work along the lines of "Kill, loot, return, kill, loot, return, kill, loot, return etc." A fairly decent summary of the Radiant Quest system if I remember it correctly.

On the subject of Fallout New Vegas. Yes, pretty much. In terms of quests; "enemies" are usually just NPCs who you choose to engage. Only very specific quests like Bleed Me Dry demand the "Kill (and sometimes Loot)" requirements.

 

[Shardik]

The Rollercoaster Tycoon bit is what I was referring to, although saying the game is just kill, loot, return is kinda silly too because it's removing what the quest actually is and narrowing it down into containing elements that virtually the bulk of quests in NV featured too. You're nearly always going to have to return to the quest giver (unless it's a find quest) and you're nearly always going to encounter enemies you normally have to kill and you're going to nearly always take items from them.

But even really basic fetch type quests can be interesting if the developer puts a bit of effort into them. Just the other night I ran into one in Witcher 3; talk to the quest giver, go get the item he wants, fight a few enemies and return. Except CDPR actually made a nice and kind of touching little story around it, which made it worth doing and even memorable.

Bethesda, OTOH, just gives us "Go to randomly selected Location X, kill generic bad guy with no story Y, collect randomly generated Item Z, return for reward." Just plain laziness.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

But even really basic fetch type quests can be interesting if the developer puts a bit of effort into them. Just the other night I ran into one in Witcher 3; talk to the quest giver, go get the item he wants, fight a few enemies and return. Except CDPR actually made a nice and kind of touching little story around it, which made it worth doing and even memorable.

Bethesa, OTOH, just gives us "Go to randomly selected Location X, kill generic bad guy with no story Y, collect randomly generated Item Z, return for reward." Just plain laziness.

That's really the heart of the matter. The Fallout 4 quests feel like they could be entirely procedurally generated rather than written by a person. This includes much of the main story quests and "written" side quests where you still end up going to location X, destroying everything, and looting everything.

The charts comparing Skyrim and New Vegas quests to Fallout 4 quests don't lie. It says pretty much everything you need to know about Fallout 4.

Witcher 3 has some excellent sidequests. And not just the bigger ones. Many if not all the smaller generic quests had something in it that made you feel like someone actually made an effort with it. With Fallout 4, I am pretty sure a computer procedurally generated the majority of my "tasks" and the quests that are deliberately written into the game still amount to that same repetitive formula.

 

[SpecialHands]

The returning part is seriously irrelevant. What Irwin John Finster is saying when he says "return" is "rinse and repeat". Fallout 4 quests work along the lines of "Kill, loot, return, kill, loot, return, kill, loot, return etc." A fairly decent summary of the Radiant Quest system if I remember it correctly.

On the subject of Fallout New Vegas. Yes, pretty much. In terms of quests; "enemies" are usually just NPCs who you choose to engage. Only very specific quests like Bleed Me Dry demand the "Kill (and sometimes Loot)" requirements.

At no point has my argument with him (or his as he seems to only be replying to my comments about the main quest) focused on optional radiant quests that have no bearing on the main game.

 

[CerberusGate]

I doubt that improving the mechanics of the settlement building and turning the game into a RollerCoaster Tycoon-esque game would improve the game's reception here since the game would still be called Fallout 4 and knowing Bethesda, they would have tacked on a dull main story as per the course of their games.

Now if it were a spin-off game using what was suggested by @SpecialHands, it may be better received since it would not be part of the main series and can be ignored like Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel.

Are you telling me the majority of new vegas quests do not involve (not end with) one or more of those? Are you telling me most enemies in NV just ignore you unless you choose to engage? That you seldom have to return to the quest giver?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Someone_to_Watch_Over_Me
This quest is one of the quests in New Vegas where the player does not need to go back to the quest giver since it ends with the player trying to talk down a frustrated teen from robbing her family and running away from them. The player does not even return to the original quest giver for any rewards. Some quests in New Vegas are a lot more varied than simple kill, loot, and return and certain factions are not even hostile to the player unless the player actively engages them to turn them hostile (the Legion were always gunning for me in my first playthrough since I slipped live grenades on them).

I think I said this is another thread, but I would have been happy if the Vault Mobile game was a sims like side game, maybe costing £3 or so where you build the Vault and you get the experiment on them as such.
In it, you play the Overseer and the game retains the same Isometric experience as the older games.

I would have bought something like that at the first chance I could.
In fact, that would have made me believe that Bethesda could achieve something that the spin-off games couldn't.
But that would have been too much work for them.

But can you imagine the possibilities that a little side series like that could entail? We could have then had a sequel of such where we look after our own Settlement, put Sheriffs in charge, deal with the in town fighting while also defending the Town against Raiders and Super Mutants.

That would be an improvement over Fallout Shelter (the original version, not sure about the newer versions). It would be interesting if the Vault in Fallout Shelter could expand and become like a mini Vault City but sadly the actual game is not fleshed out enough to do so.

EDIT: Irwin John Finster has a good point on how repetitive most Fallout 4 quests are. Plus few of them have any truly lasting impact in-game.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

At no point has my argument with him (or his as he seems to only be replying to my comments about the main quest) focused on optional radiant quests that have no bearing on the main game.

In my opinion the main game quests of Fallout 4 still boil down to "kill loot return" just like the radiant quests. The game is analagous to taking a franchise and transforming it into a completely different genre, thereby alienating the previous fans. This is true for Fallout 1 and 2 fans as well as Fallout 3 and New Vegas fans. It alienated a lot of us.

As I've said, people have made several charts comparing quest design of New Vegas to Fallout 4. Why? Because a lot of people agree that Fallout 4 is lazy compared to previous installments.

I'm sorry if that disagrees with how you feel about the game to the point you have to call people stupid and ridiculous.

So many posts talk about "Would Fallout 4 have been better if it was titled something different like 'Wasteland Workshop Game'" or whatever. The answer is simply no because Fallout fans were expecting a Fallout game. There's your answer.

 

[SpecialHands]

But even really basic fetch type quests can be interesting if the developer puts a bit of effort into them. Just the other night I ran into one in Witcher 3; talk to the quest giver, go get the item he wants, fight a few enemies and return. Except CDPR actually made a nice and kind of touching little story around it, which made it worth doing and even memorable.

Bethesa, OTOH, just gives us "Go to randomly selected Location X, kill generic bad guy with no story Y, collect randomly generated Item Z, return for reward." Just plain laziness.

This is getting completely off topic to the point of no return now but

There's a hefty number of quests like that in 4. The Cabot quest, the Quest to finish Valentine's case his friend started, retaking the Castle, the Silver Shroud, curing Cait, the Eddie Winters tapes, the first Finch Farm quest with the forged, the diamond city mayor being a synth etc

Fallout 4 has a bunch of problems, terrible writing, an awful dialogue system, pointless characters, plot holes, a massively dumbed down S.P.E.C.I.A.L system etc. But to suggest every quest is a rinse and repeat radiant without any back story or character motives is simply not reflective of the truth.

 

[SpecialHands]

I'm sorry if that disagrees with how you feel about the game to the point you have to call people stupid and ridiculous.

I'm hugely interested in seeing where I called you stupid. Not your stupid (and it really is) comparison of turning a game where you build rollercoasters into a gritty fps with nothing to do with rollercoasters being the same thing as a post apoc crpg becoming a post apoc fps, but where I called you stupid.