Would Fallout New Vegas Have Been Better?

Ziggy Stardust

Ziggy Stardust

Space Alien
Whenever I talk to Fallout fans (not r/fallout fans) about Fallout: New Vegas, there's normally a lot of adoration of its atmosphere and story, but also a tinge of disappointment about what could have been if Obsidian got the extra time it needed.

This post is not defending Bethesda's decision to give Obsidian eighteen months without properly educating them on how to use the engine. Of course that's utter bullshit, nobody would defend that, except for the whitest of the Todd Howard knights. However, I disagree with this disappointment over the final product. I think it misrepresents what Obsidian would have actually been able to do with that time, and honestly, I find it insulting to the people who worked on the game.

I think that everything that makes Fallout New Vegas good: the atmosphere, the story, all that good stuff, for the most part, made it into the game. Obsidian used that eighteen months the best that anyone could use eighteen months, prioritizing the key features of the game. In the end, had they more time, they wouldn't have used it on an entirely new faction or ending, or drastically improving the game. The biggest cut features were to play as a ghoul and to have endgame. Okay, so probably a lot of different dynamics and interactions as a ghoul, and some dialogue, maybe minor quests after you finish the game.

I mean sure it would be cool to have those things, but they wouldn't have made the game that much better. The things that actually make the game great are all in the game. Obsidian, in just eighteen months, managed to create all of the important aspects of the game, and that's why I see it as insulting to act like the final game was a disappointment by any means. They pulled off eighteen months.

The planned features would have improved the game, certainly, and there would have been a lot of bug fixes, but most of this stuff you can get through mods. Fallout: New Vegas, if they were given the time they needed, would not have been the Holy Grail of video gaming, leagues above the final game that we got. It would have been a more refined version of the Fallout: New Vegas of our world, which we're going to get when Fallout 4: New Vegas comes out anyway!
 
Honestly the only thing I have to say in that regard is that while what we got was definitely fantastic, my sticking point with NV will always be Caesar's Legion. As a faction it is underdeveloped compared to the NCR or the factions within Vegas itself. To me, the Legion feels unfinished and rushed. If Obsidian had had another six months to flesh them out, write some more quests and characters for the Legion side, along with at least ONE more major location that was entirely within Legion control then I would be happy.

There's a lot going on to show that the Legion at the time of NV is a failing society that needs to have victory in the Mojave to truly solidify into something permanent. I guess one could call it a proto-state? I want to see more of that. I want to see the infrastructural work that Caesar had done to try to make his new nation. We get to see representations of the NCR's infrastructure, but the Legion just comes off entirely as cosplaying raiders and that's... disappointing.
 
If you watch any of Sawyer's livestreams you'd know this isn't true. He talks about the detriment of the time limit frequently.
 
Chromevod said:
onestly the only thing I have to say in that regard is that while what we got was definitely fantastic, my sticking point with NV will always be Caesar's Legion. As a faction it is underdeveloped compared to the NCR or the factions within Vegas itself. To me, the Legion feels unfinished and rushed. If Obsidian had had another six months to flesh them out, write some more quests and characters for the Legion side, along with at least ONE more major location that was entirely within Legion control then I would be happy.
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This. There's a bunch of stuff that got cut from development because of time constraints, a lot of it involving the Legion. Like a town just on the border of the map (i believe it was there) that would give more context and give a perspective on how the living is for a citizen of the Legion. That was badly needed in the game.
 
Dolan Springs is "close" though it is not really much of a town. You of course have to take FNV's squished geography into account.

I love FNV but it makes a good game why Fallout games should stick to location spaces on a world map and not a single big world space.
 
Atomic Postman said:
If you watch any of Sawyer's livestreams you'd know this isn't true. He talks about the detriment of the time limit frequently.
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Yes, but most of it is worldbuilding stuff, like making the White Legs a bodytype instead of a single model.
Norzan said:
This. There's a bunch of stuff that got cut from development because of time constraints, a lot of it involving the Legion. Like a town just on the border of the map (i believe it was there) that would give more context and give a perspective on how the living is for a citizen of the Legion. That was badly needed in the game.
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I didn't actually know about that. The impression of the Legion I get from the game is that its an unstoppable war machine in its prime, just from the shit you hear about their conquest of Arizona in game. It would have been really interesting to see another side to them.
 
I would also have loved a legion companion, like Boone opposite, and some of the companions being more fleshed out, like Lily.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
Out of curiosity, how would you have liked to see Lily be more fleshed out?
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Not him (obviously) but she really doesn't have much going on compared to other companions. Her story is very simple and her personality very one dimensional. Delving deeper into exploring the Super-Mutant psyche and hearing the tale of the Unity, the fall of the Unity and the century since from the perspective of one of its soldiers would be very interesting to me.
 
I feel like it would have definitively improved it.

I think we all agree that the Legion is rather undeveloped next to the NCR.

Perhaps if they had enough time, we would have gotten Ulysses as the Legion Companion. Closest thing to that is Raul, but he's more of a "Eh the Legion seems fine bro" companion.

A "Legion Town" would have been fantastic to see as well.

I feel like we might have gotten some other things that didn't make the cut. Like the Railguns and Mr. House cucking to the NCR.
 
Slaughter Manslaught said:
I feel like it would have definitively improved it.

I think we all agree that the Legion is rather undeveloped next to the NCR.

Perhaps if they had enough time, we would have gotten Ulysses as the Legion Companion. Closest thing to that is Raul, but he's more of a "Eh the Legion seems fine bro" companion.

A "Legion Town" would have been fantastic to see as well.

I feel like we might have gotten some other things that didn't make the cut. Like the Railguns and Mr. House cucking to the NCR.
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Yeah you're right, I should have thought of that. Every Legion member you see is a slave or soldier, no civilians. Not sure where the Legion town would have been though.
 
Honestly, I feel like people who want more Legion content are not necessarily right in that it would make things better. Part of why is that I worry it would play into the "make the Legion more sympathetic" narrative. The Legion shouldn't be sympathetic. It's a very realistic warlord-based misogynist religious militia group. I mean, it's just the Taliban or Lord's Liberation Army with a Roman motif.

You don't need to make that sympathetic.
 
CT Phipps said:
Honestly, I feel like people who want more Legion content are not necessarily right in that it would make things better. Part of why is that I worry it would play into the "make the Legion more sympathetic" narrative. The Legion shouldn't be sympathetic. It's a very realistic warlord-based misogynist religious militia group. I mean, it's just the Taliban or Lord's Liberation Army with a Roman motif.

You don't need to make that sympathetic.
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You don't need to make them necessarily "sympathetic" but you can make them understandable (as in, believable/substantial reasoning as to why they were so successful in their environment) and more fleshed out.

There's a "rewriting new Vegas" thread where I discuss this with another user, about how expanding the Legion's writing doesn't necessarily mean making them justifiable.

For instance, we don't even know how the idea of them holding territory all the way out to Denver is reconciled with them being "basically a nomadic army"
 
CT Phipps said:
Honestly, I feel like people who want more Legion content are not necessarily right in that it would make things better. Part of why is that I worry it would play into the "make the Legion more sympathetic" narrative. The Legion shouldn't be sympathetic. It's a very realistic warlord-based misogynist religious militia group. I mean, it's just the Taliban or Lord's Liberation Army with a Roman motif.

You don't need to make that sympathetic.
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You don't have to make them sympathetic but I think what people want more of is to see how the subjects of the Legion live and what they think. I don't want to toot my own horn but in the mod I am working on I added a Legion merchant who is a subject of the Legion. As a teaser I will give out some of the dialogue that you have with her. As you can see the subjects of the Legion do not care about the horrors that the Legion commits. Even before the Legion came the people feel like they didn't have a say. It is still pretty much the same but the people are prosperous and safe. As Cass stated, people will be willing to trade their freedom to anyone for a little safety:

Courier: I’m curious, what is life like over in Legion territory?

Patty: We have a saying in Legion territory and that is, “A woman can carry a cart loaded with gold for 300 miles by herself and not get robbed.”

Honestly, you won’t find a safer place in all the waste then Legion controlled lands.

There is no crime, food and clean water is plentiful and most importantly the lands are safe for traders to travel.


Courier: But at what cost? You seemed to have sacrificed freedom for convenience.

Patty: Oh, don’t go on with me about this freedom crap. Hear it enough from profligates.

Before the Legion came along, Arizona was a raider infested hellhole. You couldn’t walk outside your door without getting attacked by raiders.

When the Legion came, they killed off the raider tribes and established law and order in Arizona.

Not only that but Caesar taught many Arizonians about agriculture, farming and irrigation. Thanks to him no Arizonian goes hungry.

So, if I had to choose my safety over a dangerous form of freedom, you are damn right I will choose my safety first. I’ve seen the alternative.


Courier: How do you as a subject of the Legion feel about slavery?

Patty: Ugh, this isn’t the first time I have been asked this.

I don’t see what is so wrong with slavery. I mean, many of these slaves were from tribes that would harm and harass folks trying to make a living.

The Legion punishes those tribals and rehabilitates them to abandon their barbaric beliefs and makes them into civilized folk.

Win-win if you ask me.


Courier: So, you don’t care that the Legion abuses their slaves on a regular basis? How do you sleep at night?

Patty: Like a baby. You expect me to feel sorry for raider and tribal scum who would kidnap and kill folks like me for a few caps? You must be joking.

I could care less if a legionary made some tribal bitch his sex slave. Serves her right for raiding and pillaging from innocent people.

Karma is a bitch and you would be wise to remember that.


 
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I think the idea of people from Arizona having fundamentally different cultural perspectives to those from the West is also interesting as a way of giving the Legion more depth.

I imagine Easterners probably have a rather dehumanising view of tribals (considering the eastern tribes are particularly primitive and particularly violent/hostile) and their society wasn't one where the average person felt like they were in control anyway (as opposed to California which has now had a century of robust democracy and capitalism) since they probably lived very hard survivalist lives in opposition to raider-tribes.

It raises the question as to whether the Legion is a round peg in a square hole west of the Colorado, and whether that problem is truthfully remedied by Caesars transformative plans or whether it'll just be the most bloody culture clash in history.
 
I suppose that depends on whether the tribals practiced chattel slavery, execution of homosexuals, and mass rape before Caesar introduced them. Because it's hard to make those things improvements for society even if the Brahmin herds arrive on time.

Excellent writing, @RangerBoo
 
CT Phipps said:
I suppose that depends on whether the tribals practiced chattel slavery, execution of homosexuals, and mass rape before Caesar introduced them. Because it's hard to make those things improvements for society even if the Brahmin herds arrive on time.

Excellent writing, @RangerBoo
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Simply put: if it only happens to the tribes and not to the civilized towns, it's an improvement from their perspective.

If I'm a farmer in bumfuck, New Mexico and I hear that the local tribe that used to rustle brahmin and steal water aren't around anymore, I'm not going to shed a tear over how brutally that had to go about. Especially if there's no indication something similar will happen to me.

That would be the logic, I imagine
 
Atomic Postman said:
Simply put: if it only happens to the tribes and not to the civilized towns, it's an improvement from their perspective.

If I'm a farmer in bumfuck, New Mexico and I hear that the local tribe that used to rustle brahmin and steal water aren't around anymore, I'm not going to shed a tear over how brutally that had to go about. Especially if there's no indication something similar will happen to me.
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Which is kind of what I implied with the character of Patty. Non Arizonian tribals probably thought that the Legion was an improvement. After all, according to Sawyer, the Legion doesn't enslave non-tribal Arizonians. They are allowed to go about their business so long as they don't interfere with Legion affairs. I am sure that some subjects of the Legion do suffer from some forms of misogyny or oppression but it was either not to the extent of the tribals or the raider tribes were so bad and so horrible that people saw the Legion as an improvement.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
The biggest cut features were to play as a ghoul and to have endgame.
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Not only as a ghoul, it would also have had the option to play as a Super Mutant.

But to reply to this thread properly, I will just leave here a post I made in another thread a while ago:
Risewild said:
In general, the game was gutted. Just looking at the evidence that remains in the game files shows this.
I just don't know if I would say that cutting the Legion stuff would have been enough to call the game gutted. But in general, it was gutted alright.

Just for anyone who is interested (in this type of stuff), here is a document made years ago with some of the cut content that people have found (doesn't have all of the stuff):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmgl8dzv2ja55i/fnv cut stuff.txt
It shows that at least 14 locations never made it to the final game version (including some settlements).
Companions would have had almost twice the dialogue they do, there are hundreds of cut NPCs and dialogues, there are cut quests and items, there are remains of an extra casino, of Freeside being larger, have tons of NPCs and being open (and the Mormon Fort would have been open too), Rex was supposed to actually find and chase rats (but it was cut), some quests would have had more steps and being longer/more complex, and much, much more stuff.

I would estimate that FNV would have been at least 1.5 times bigger (in all aspects, not just map) if most of the stuff cut (because they couldn't make it in time or didn't know how to make it work) would be fixed and implemented. And this is just the unused stuff we can find in the game files and code. I have no idea how big the game would have been if they managed to make it all the way they planned, because I'm pretty sure most of that didn't leave any evidence behind.
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