Would VanBuren have been better than FO, FO2?

[Brother None]

Briosafreak, how I missed you, *hug*

TorontoRayne; MCA himself has said New Reno sucked from a Fallout perspective. Just because it was tooled together and called Fallout doesn't mean it's set in stone. What's next, are we going to have to accept Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel as representing the look and feel of the Fallout world?

 

[Simbay]

But here's the catch; why set Fallout 2 80 years after Fallout? By your logic, it's necessary to set every sequel after its predecessor chronologically. If Bethesda has to add 80 years to every sequel, Fallout 3 would lack a lot of a post-apocalyptic feel and Fallout 4 would probably show a thriving world, rebuilt on the scrap of the old world. Do you really want that?

I agree and actually I even wrote that the events of Fallout 2 should have been kept for a later Fallout sequel but I deleted that to keep my post shorter. So, I get what you're saying, I liked the story of Fallout 2 but it was too soon to tell it in that sequel, for the sake of F3.

If VB was to be a prequel, it would be cool and would be more "fallouty," but right now, I am more curious about what happens next in the world of F1/2. I don't know how they could simplify the world for F3 then though. I must say, seeing the train on a VB screenshot kind of bugged me because it seemed too industrial for Fallout (although there were vertibirds and what not in F1/2, that stuff was kind of underground). Anyway, I would be forgiving about either decision since F2 kind of messed it up for the sequels. Also, if the game was to take place at another location then I hope it would still tell us what happened in F1/2 part too and affect it somehow.

One thing I didn't like about VB is seeing BOS on the game menu screenshot. I liked BOS back when it was underground and mysterious, it's been advertised too much lately, I want to see it in a different light or to see less of it. I hope the main character wasn't supposed to be a BOS member who knows what's up.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I did like the Orbital Base that you were supposed to go to near the end of the game.

Last vestiges of the pre-war technology, and all. Good concept.

 

[Brother None]

Orbital base = good. Very Dr. Bloodmoney

Space rocket to travel to orbital base = ehm...not so good

 

[Lazarus Plus]

Orbital base = good. Very Dr. Bloodmoney

Space rocket to travel to orbital base = ehm...not so good

I was wondering how you got there...

"Say, you've got a nice, mint condition rocket there!"

"Yup, I sure do!"

"Mind if I borrow it, maybe get it destroyed in a cataclysmic event, even?"

"Hyuck! Why not!?"

 

[Tempistfury]

I think a rocket would have been totally acceptable. It screams 1950's space travel. Besides, how else would one get up to an orbital space station?

Im assuming the rocket had a retro look btw...

 

[Brother None]

I think a rocket would have been totally acceptable. It screams 1950's space travel. Besides, how else would one get up to an orbital space station?

Im assuming the rocket had a retro look btw...

Excuse me? 1950's Space Travel?

Timeline of space travel of life forms:
November 3, 1957 Animal in orbit (Dog)
April 12, 1961 Human in orbit (Gagarin)
July 21, 1969 Human on the Moon (Armstrong)

So unless the PC of Fallout 3 was a dog, I'm pretty sure the likelyhood of him doing a 50's-esque space exploration is pretty much nihil.

Nope, sorry, the rocket is totally unacceptable in my book. In fact, the first known occasion of space rendezvous (which is what you call a space ship docking a space station, amongst other things) is 1965. A bit late, no?

The space orbit station is fine. Have you ever read Dr. Bloodmoney? There's a single orbital station with one surviving man in there, broadcasting to the eart, bringing hope. He dies and the evil Dr. Bloodmoney takes over the thing from earth with a transmitter in some kind of world domination plot. Not a Fallout-plot, but closer to Fallout than travelling to an orbital station is

 

[Briosafreak]

Excuse me? 1950's Space Travel?

Well it shouldn`t be 50`s Space Travel, but how it was seen by the sci-fi pulp on those days, meaning something like these ones, taken from classic Flash Gordon. The Space Stations should follow those lines, and indeed it would look like something like the one depicted here.


More things that would fit would be these types of guns and armour, this type of machinery, and definitely this spaceship.

 

[Roshambo]

The topic of "Fallouty" towns is a most ambiguous one. I think it revolves around the circumstances and character of the location.

New Reno has been beaten to death, I'll pass over that one.

The Den and Klamath are two problem areas. Both looked and could have offered much more to the setting if the designers only tried. A trapping town and a lawless frontier town, both had their place in the setting. Instead, Klamath looks like a child's tinkering around with a map editor, while the Den seemd to be little more than tiny mini-locations for the sake of a few almost nondescript quests and some nose candy about a ghost. Klamath should have regular caravans and a station like the Far Go, as would the Den for sake of being a spot to resupply despite the locals. The city would thusly have been more like the Hub if there only was some cohesion to it.

Vault City seemed to be hopeful and have progress in the world, yet it has a darker side. Not only does it harbor many of the prejudices towards unclean humans, it is likely doomed to failure like a location used earlier.

Given the state of Shady Sands in Fallout, the fact that they came from a Vault (later the styling to be noticable to the GECK's use for Vault City) makes it look like there really isn't any long-term hope for Vault City, or for that matter any location from the GECK, as look at what happened to Shady Sands. Things break down and they are a poor farming village unable to really defend against raiders.

NCR, for these reasons, really didn't fit into the setting except to show the warm fuzzy of Democracy living anew over everything, which is a bit too light for Fallout unless it doesn't last long.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Space rocket to travel to orbital base = ehm...not so good

Then how did the orbital base get up there? Catapulted from Earth's surface?

And Fallout wasn't inspired by the 1950's, but by the SF pulp of the 1950's. So if literary and other works of that period contain spacecraft, it's OK for Fallout to have them as well, as long as they are designed in proper style.

NCR, for these reasons, really didn't fit into the setting except to show the warm fuzzy of Democracy living anew over everything, which is a bit too light for Fallout unless it doesn't last long.

Not last long? But thei had army of carz lololol!!!1

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I think the only chance of a nation rebuilding would be similar to what happened in Wasteland, but on a larger scale. Multiple groups of people coming together to protect themselves, and through the union of strengths, growing strong enough to not only protect themsleves but positively expand outwards.

This is basically what NCR is doing, but if they can continue doing it without collapsing under the pressure of conflicting interests and bureaucracy is anyone's guess.

 

[Brother None]

Then how did the orbital base get up there? Catapulted from Earth's surface?

And Fallout wasn't inspired by the 1950's, but by the SF pulp of the 1950's. So if literary and other works of that period contain spacecraft, it's OK for Fallout to have them as well, as long as they are designed in proper style.

The first Sputnik was launched in the early 50's. That's a far shot from launching people into space, though

And no, it's not just 50's pulp. I've seen that excuse before, used by Chucky Cuervas. "We did some research and look, here's a girl from the 50's wearing a thong!" I don't care.

If you have a problem with NCR's army of working cars you should definitely have a problem with a working space shuttle. You can't just adapt everything from 50's pulp straight into Fallout, not if it countermands the dark, hopeless feel of the world.

There are some situation in which a working space shuttle could work, yes, just like the Tanker was fine (though oddly using raw fuels). Maybe as a rotten, deathclaw-infested hole you have to dig out and then get a team of scientists to patch it up, just enough for you to reach the station after which it blows up and leaves you stranded? Hmmm. Yes, maybe.

I have a feeling the Space Station was just too much "Fortress of Regrets" pasted onto Fallout. LOLZORS U GO 2 A SPECIAL LOCATION NOT ON TEH MAP! Another great piece of work by MCA.

Yes, it could've worked, though a working space shuttle would've hurt the Fallout feel at LEAST as much as the car did, and probably as much as MCA's brilliant army of working cars idea.

The orbitting station was fine. Why not leave it at a Dr. Bloodmoney-esque scenario, in which the evil scientist just wants to make the damn thing shoot its missiles onto earth while he's in an underground bunker somewhere radioing in command. Do we *really* need to go to the damn space platform for that?

And Briosa, I know you love defending the BIS team working on Van Buren, but do you seriously think the campy space suits from Flash Gorden would've made a good bit of the dark Fallout setting? That's rediculous

 

[Briosafreak]

The first Sputnik was launched in the early 50's. That's a far shot from launching people into space, though

You`re again dwelling in the same mistake, the Sputnick effect was that "Death from Above" became a recurrent theme in the pulp and sci-fi books of the time, because it was something that became very real to the public in the states and the "free world" at the time. It`s not the space race that matters, it´s how it was seen by the pulp and serials of the time, showing the sociological trends of the 50`s, the new fears and hopes that were carried to popular culture and science, not how things really went.

If you have a problem with NCR's army of working cars you should definitely have a problem with a working space shuttle. You can't just adapt everything from 50's pulp straight into Fallout, not if it countermands the dark, hopeless feel of the world.

Dude that`s completely silly. One thing was an excuse MCA came up on the Fallout bible to allow him and the others to expand on the cars them in future Fallout games, the other was a Flash Gordon type of rocket designed to allow players to access a Master lair type of location, following an idea that was first presented by Tim Cain to be placed in the original Fallout. Visually it took the cues that helped Leon creating the 50`s pulp feel, you`ve talked to him, ask him how Flash Gorgon and Buck Rodgers for instance were important in getting the visual atmosphere right. Mechanical gadgets, vacuum tubes, Gekkos, you´ll find it all in those old serials and comics and pulp versions of the serials.

There are some situation in which a working space shuttle could work, yes, just like the Tanker was fine (though oddly using raw fuels). Maybe as a rotten, deathclaw-infested hole you have to dig out and then get a team of scientists to patch it up, just enough for you to reach the station after which it blows up and leaves you stranded? Hmmm. Yes, maybe.

The Fallout2 Space Shuttle didn`t work in my opinion, it just didn`t fit, too modern, but i have nothing against a 50`s retro futuristic rocket, as long as a good excuse for it to exist was coked up, in the pulp tradition.

I have a feeling the Space Station was just too much "Fortress of Regrets" pasted onto Fallout. LOLZORS U GO 2 A SPECIAL LOCATION NOT ON TEH MAP! Another great piece of work by MCA.

The space station wasn´t in MCA docs for a Fallout3. It came up when he left and the story had to be simplified and reduced. Damien "Puuk" Folletto came up with that solution, that was refused by everyone else given it felt "too modern sci-fi". Then he showed the pulp covers and art from the 50`s, and reminded everyone the Sputnick effect on people at the time and everyone went along. All it takes is a bit of research Kharn, try it someday, you`ll find many interesting things on the subject.

The orbitting station was fine. Why not leave it at a Dr. Bloodmoney-esque scenario, in which the evil scientist just wants to make the damn thing shoot its missiles onto earth while he's in an underground bunker somewhere radioing in command. Do we *really* need to go to the damn space platform for that?

Sure we did, it was a tough goal for the player, making him/her to really spread out in order to get the access to it. And you could fail in the end and get stranded at the base, loosing the game. Think the space station as a Master lair type of area, of a final showdown, as the Enclave base without the high tech visuals, but a more 50`s retro thing and you´ll get the picture.

And Briosa, I know you love defending the BIS team working on Van Buren, but do you seriously think the campy space suits from Flash Gorden would've made a good bit of the dark Fallout setting? That's rediculous

Suits? What suits? I was talking guns and armour, if you don`t believe me again go talk to Leon Boyarsky and Tim Cain, they weren`t even from BIS... And don`t be so ready disqualifing my views on some bias pro-BIS, i had my share of fights with them, and tried to give a rather unbiased coverage of their work, but the thing is i tried to go deeper than the surface on this and these are my honest views, there´s nothing i can do about it.

It`s not my favorite van Buren location, that has to be The Reservation, also made by Puuk, wich is pure classic Fallout vintage stuff, and we`re talking about just one location, so this is getting a bit off-topic and i´ll shut up then.

 

[Brother None]

You`re again dwelling in the same mistake, the Sputnick effect was that "Death from Above" became a recurrent theme in the pulp and sci-fi books of the time, because it was something that became very real to the public in the states and the "free world" at the time. It`s not the space race that matters, it´s how it was seen by the pulp and serials of the time, showing the sociological trends of the 50`s, the new fears and hopes that were carried to popular culture and science, not how things really went.

Quite right, but Fallout being post-apocalyptic and not just futuristic means you have to lock down on certain types of 50's pulp and lave them out. Again, I'm fine with the orbital station, as those would stay up for ages, but a working space rocket doesn't scream decay enough for me. As I said in my previous post, though, the space shuttle might have worked, but I think a scenario involving the station without travelling to it might've worked better.

Dude that`s completely silly. One thing was an excuse MCA came up on the Fallout bible to allow him and the others to expand on the cars them in future Fallout games, the other was a Flash Gordon type of rocket designed to allow players to access a Master lair type of location, following an idea that was first presented by Tim Cain to be placed in the original Fallout. Visually it took the cues that helped Leon creating the 50`s pulp feel, you`ve talked to him, ask him how Flash Gorgon and Buck Rodgers for instance were important in getting the visual atmosphere right. Mechanical gadgets, vacuum tubes, Gekkos, you´ll find it all in those old serials and comics and pulp versions of the serials.

At which point I'd also like to note the multiple vehicles in Van Buren were pretty stupid too. But I'm always alone in fighting against the car, sadly.

Y'know, Flash Gorden also had a fleet of winged freaks and Flash riding on a space-scooter. And a fortress surrounded by a force shield with laser turrets. And a blonde football-hero in a silly suit battling it out with aliens.

You're using false reasoning. Just because some things from Flash work for Fallout doesn't mean you can copy out everything on the same excuse.

following an idea that was first presented by Tim Cain to be placed in the original Fallout

Argumentam ad verenicam, and you use it multiple times too. Just because it comes from the Troika-trio does not make it the holy word, sadly, and I think the fact that it *didn't* make it into the original Fallout says enough.

The Fallout2 Space Shuttle didn`t work in my opinion, it just didn`t fit, too modern, but i have nothing against a 50`s retro futuristic rocket, as long as a good excuse for it to exist was coked up, in the pulp tradition.

Indeed, maybe it would've worked like that. Prolly not, though

The space station wasn´t in MCA docs for a Fallout3. It came up when he left and the story had to be simplified and reduced. Damien "Puuk" Folletto came up with that solution, that was refused by everyone else given it felt "too modern sci-fi". Then he showed the pulp covers and art from the 50`s, and reminded everyone the Sputnick effect on people at the time and everyone went along. All it takes is a bit of research Kharn, try it someday, you`ll find many interesting things on the subject.

MCA not being there doesn't mean the idea wasn't grabbed on a similar basis.

Again, I'm fine with the Sputnik-effect, I'm not fine with travelling there. It was unnecessary and very touchy. They might've been able to handle it well, but they probably wouldn't have.

Sure we did, it was a tough goal for the player, making him/her to really spread out in order to get the access to it. And you could fail in the end and get stranded at the base, loosing the game. Think the space station as a Master lair type of area, of a final showdown, as the Enclave base without the high tech visuals, but a more 50`s retro thing and you´ll get the picture.

There's no reason to go to a space station for that, unless the PC would blow up with the station, which would've been a good, Fallout-like ending. Though a bit too "sacrifice yourself for the common good"-esque.

And you said it, a place like the Master's Lair was hard enough to find in Fallout and you had several ways (diplomacy, combat, stealing) to enter it. Fix it up a bit and you can make a secret on-the-eart lair that you have to track down and get to. Less epic? Yes. But Fallout was never about being epic.

It`s not my favorite van Buren location, that has to be The Reservation, also made by Puuk, wich is pure classic Fallout vintage stuff, and we`re talking about just one location, so this is getting a bit off-topic and i´ll shut up then.

Meh, it's more interesting than the original topic anyway, I'll just split it if it gets out of hand

 

[171]

sacra

либисо кесаса
копами тимито
талеба мамоло

 

[Roshambo]

Funny, Fo1 was only a few months before Fo2, mostly thanks to Feargus' Slam Dunkage™.

We also have two other games to examine and to criticize, mainly because they were cheap knock-offs.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I can see the argument being made that our eyes are being veiled by the amazing first expreience of Fallout, which was basically unqiue in all of our experiences. (Like Star Wars wasn't as good as people remember from when they first saw it..)

But this is more tangible, because you interact with it. And the community really REALLY wants FO3 to be good, which is why decisions that were made by the BIS team on Van Buren sometimes puzzle us.

And the previous experience of the "knock-offs" makes you rather... jaded.

 

[Brother None]

I can see the argument being made that our eyes are being veiled by the amazing first expreience of Fallout, which was basically unqiue in all of our experiences. (Like Star Wars wasn't as good as people remember from when they first saw it..)

But this is more tangible, because you interact with it. And the community really REALLY wants FO3 to be good, which is why decisions that were made by the BIS team on Van Buren sometimes puzzle us

Hold on there. "Veiled" is not the right word there. Our perception is "skewed", if you will, by Fallout 1, yes. So? That does not necessarily cloud a person's judgements? No.

Fallout 2 is not being overly criticized. It has been scrutinized to death. Conclusion: despite having a few tools added to the engine and being much larger, it does not reach the quality of Fallout. Not that shocking a conclusion and one we came to a long time ago. NCR always sucked, nothing's gonna change that (not even a fleet of cars)

 

[Lazarus Plus]

Hold on there. "Veiled" is not the right word there. Our perception is "skewed", if you will, by Fallout 1, yes. So? That does not necessarily cloud a person's judgements? No.

Fallout 2 is not being overly criticized. It has been scrutinized to death. Conclusion: despite having a few tools added to the engine and being much larger, it does not reach the quality of Fallout. Not that shocking a conclusion and one we came to a long time ago. NCR always sucked, nothing's gonna change that (not even a fleet of cars)

It does indeed cloud a person's judgements when all they can make are comparisons to the emotion of that first playing experience, as opposed to the quantitive measurement of craft. Then, naturally, any new playing experience, whether or not it is quantitatively as well-made, it will nevertheless be viewed as inferior. (I'm not accusing any particular person of doing this, merely pointing out that this possibility exists.) The danger, then, is always judging a game not solely by it's content but by whether it gave you that same amzing feeling that the first playthough of FO gave you. And unfortunately, it probably won't.

I do agree with you, however, that Fallout 2 had significant flaws in the game design itself. I merely wanted to point out the above.

 

[Sander]

It does indeed cloud a person's judgements when all they can make are comparisons to the emotion of that first playing experience, as opposed to the quantitive measurement of craft. Then, naturally, any new playing experience, whether or not it is quantitatively as well-made, it will nevertheless be viewed as inferior. (I'm not accusing any particular person of doing this, merely pointing out that this possibility exists.) The danger, then, is always judging a game not solely by it's content but by whether it gave you that same amzing feeling that the first playthough of FO gave you. And unfortunately, it probably won't.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, we should not judge a game by the experience we get from it, but how well-made it is, which is very difficult to define and grasp. Ie. you want us to logically look at a game to see whether it is any good, and not at how much we enjoy the game.
That doesn't seem logical.