Yup, we are trully f***ed...

Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
I think he's wrong to say something like Heavy Rain shouldn't be classified a game. A game is an incredibly broad category that encompasses everything between checkers and football. I think he's spot on to say it should be viewed differently, however. I also like his ideas on pricing. Once more people, at least in the US, start using monthly recurring payments in everyday life we may see more subscription based multiplayer games. It would be great for many parties if Modern Warfare 3 was $5-7/month. And a shorter game like Heavy Rain should start at closer to the $30-40 range.
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Maybe I am wrong with this but if I get him right what he eventually means is that the term "game" is a very broad Umbrella while it is quite clear that certain games are very different from each other in both their philosophy and design.

I mean take movies as example. Of course you have those block buster productions with Hollywood trying to be on the save side so we see a new Transformers movie every 2 years but the business also leaves at least some room for experimental projects and movies apart from the mainstream. Like Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain or La cité des enfants perdus of which both are from Jean-Pierre Jeunet. But it is just an example. There are niche markets for movies and even more so for books and writers and publishers can actually even earn money here (just see the Russian film nor as example). Game developers seem to think today though that niche titles equal "loos" and that experiments with game play or even developing something outside of the mainstream is useless (when was the last time a turn based game was released ?). It seems games have to be either successful with millions or they are not worth the time. This is somewhat similar with movies but at least here you get a lot of different genres of where some are seen rather as "art" then products simply for entertainment. Hands down. Even a die hard artist will try to earn money with his work. And it still remains a question if games are now art or not. But it is quite clear that the design and intention behind Planescape Torment in the past was completely different to how some so called "RPGs" are made today.
 
I think the online marketplace for gaming is a very good thing and will open up the market for games driven more by ideas and play mechanics as opposed to big time production values. By expanding the marketplace the game market is getting big enough to support both the big budget mainstream games and more modestly budgeted artist driven products which appeal to vastly different audiences, similar to film and music.
 
Farmerk said:
I think Fable was shitted on when the first game came out and everyone realized that PM was a huge troll.
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Black & White more or less cemented PM's "trollness", as well as his general inability to make a good game anymore in my eyes.
 
I thought Fable 1 was a great game. A bit dumbed down and consoley, sure, but enjoyable nonetheless.

Can't speak for Fable 2 because the dickheads never ported it to PC, but I don't like what I've seen of 3 and I won't bother getting it.
 
Funny. Just played FEAR 3. What a bore fest. Well at least I can turn to music and t.v. for great entertainment.
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Hey a repeat. Better turn on the radio.
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Lady Gaga and Justin Beiber!.....
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I'm going to go read a book.
 
I_eat_supermutants said:
Funny. Just played FEAR 3. What a bore fest.
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Steve Niles wrote the story and John Carpenter was around doing something.

That and the people who did the original expansion packs made it.

It was pretty much destined to be crappy.
 
As long as there are modders or even indie developers trying to uphold former strenghts in the genre you like, I wouldn't say we're fucked. If one thinks that todays RPGs for example simply are dumbed down pieces of shit, then just don't buy it, buy the indiegames instead. Or hell, todays technology allows to make something on your own much easier than it was the case 10 years ago. If someone really wants to do something against the "decline", then go for it and support/do something for the genre. ;)
 
Surf Solar said:
. Or hell, todays technology allows to make something on your own much easier than it was the case 10 years ago. If someone really wants to do something against the "decline", then go for it and support/do something for the genre. ;)
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You sir, are talking bullshit.

What is the last complex, AAA quality indie game you remember that was commercially succesful? Yeah, I thought so. It takes MUCH more than simply downloading UDK/Unity/(is "free" CryEngine 3 out yet?) to make something at best semi decent. And UDK/Unity are not the best tools. Well, other than the engine, you need programmers, 3D character, prop, environment artists, 2D artists (concept, textures(...)), designers, sound-guys, and tools for them. And even if you have those, most indie projects end without any decent effects. Sorry to break your delusion :)


It is not developer's fault that games are dumbed down. It is US who buy this bullshit, who praise Bethesda for Oblivion and Fallout 3, Activision for another CoD, etc. Shitty games will be made for as long, as we buy that crap. But it won't happen as long as mainstream media form dumb fucks : )
 
DarthBartus said:
What is the last complex, AAA quality indie game you remember that was commercially succesful?
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Steam/XBLA/PSN are full of them. Unless you mean AAA as high budget.
 
AAA is game with high visual quality, using at least industry standard technology (mocap, voice acting and such). You know, high quality models, normal/diffuse/specularity maps, shaders, environments(...).

World of Goo is really, really awesome. But it's just a logic minigame, based on simple, fairly easy to code concept.
 
You just said complex, AAA quality, indie game that was commercially successful and World of Goo was all of those things. Admittedly it's from 2008 and it's the newest game I can think of that fits those categories.

Edit: If your definition of AAA is looking really good, then World of Goo would fit.

world-of-goo-20080122030250385-000.jpg


World-of-Goo-Demo_2.jpg


Compare that to this so called "AAA" game that came out in the same year and won so many "GOTY" awards.


[spoiler:5f18a6afca]
fallout3-2008-12-02-11-0.jpg


Spoiler'd for width[/spoiler:5f18a6afca]
 
Note, not once in you definition of a AAA game did you say it had to be a good game(and you sort of downplay design and art direction). I like good games and there are many good indie games released every year. Give me SpaceChem over 99% of AAA games.
 
Well, if you define indie has a few guys doing a game in their basement, of course they can't have all those graphical eye candies, the technology is incredibly expensive, not to mention you need a lot of people to code and make it all work together. It would require an indie team tremendous amounts of capital (we're talking millions here) to build an AAA title at even decent graphical quality from scratch, and that's just virtually impossible for them. They can take existing tech and build up on it (off the top of my head you have mods like Nerhim for Oblivion that could very well have been sold as a fully priced game), but only when the people who made the tech allow it. And even then, you need to publicize the game, which is even more money especially in today's competitive market (people need to know your game is not generic random crap #1384859).

So no, it's not feasible for anybody but an established studio to build a game on modern hardware. There's a reason almost every single good-sized development house is owned by a large publisher.

Still, I don't believe a second we're ''fucked''. FPS's dominate the market, so what, there always were a specific genre dominating the market, I wasn't there but I am certain the ''glory days'' had more than their share of piss-poor shovelware (admitedly maybe not to the extent of today). Doesn't mean they don't produce good games these days. If I was to make a top 5 of my all time favourites, two or three would be from after 2006.
 
For an indie game developer it's surely not an issue when it comes to having decent graphics. There are a few good game engines within a decent price range that support dynamic real time shadows, depth of field, occlusion mapping, depth map shadows, normal mapping, and texture baking. These have come standard for most single player and multiplayer supported game engines.

It's also like the tools an artist may be given. I would be more impressed with a group's determination to make the best of something that offers very little rather than a millionaire who leases an engine for 400,000 and places objects in it randomly. Placing a few buildings, trees, and other objects randomly is alright. It takes more than the game engine to make a great game have an outstanding visual side.
 
I guess one sign of AAA games is the costs. I mean they spend millions of dollars (most of it for the marketing).

usually indie games neither need nor have the resources for such marketing campaigns like TV commercials, radio news and what ever they use. I mean Fallout 3 got even TV commercials here in Europe ... I don't even want to know how much money they spend on those.

I think that is a very important difference in Indie games and AAA Titles. Of course this tells NOTHING about the quality. Both Oblivion and Fallout 3 are AAA titles. But they are utter crap. Yet it sold like Beiber-Cak ... I mean Hot-Cakes.
 
An interesting point Crni Vuk.

I've seen plenty of good animated films and games go unheard. Unseen as if they were films off the ScyFy channel (so horrible if you're sober).

Another classification of indie game developers though is that a lot of so called "Indie game projects/companies" that start out on the internet. They are as I've experienced a good way to learn about game and content creation but not a good way to successfully make a final product. This can include modifications to already made games though.

A lot of times they fail, and success though rare, are a treat for the gaming, and indie game developer community. A few good ones have come along. Personally I like to keep my eye on the Unity, and C4 communities.

I admit though getting a chance to discover some truly outstanding people who can model, texture, and animate. These game dev communities are a sure way to find an abundance of hidden talent.
 
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