Black Lives Matter

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Mr Fish, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Because specific culture is the driving force behind certain behavior observable on any individual or group of indiviuals raised in the same cultural background. Which doesn't automatically mean any individual should be judged accordingly to collective guilt, mind you, individuals driven by cultural motives are still personaly responsible for their own behavior.

    Look at mass groping in Cologne. You can trace the very reason for this incident in perpetrators' culture and yet every one of them is personaly responsible for his crime. Why do you consider cultural background and personal responsibility to be mutually exclusive things?
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Because it leads to such nonsensical stuff like racial profiling, which is what happend in cologne one year after the crime and the effect of it was rather underwhelming. It doesn't help you really in preventing anything outside of stigmatizing certain groups as 'not welcome', based on their cultural heritage. Maybe you don't blame people for their culture, but most people don't differiante and simply generalize.
    I quote:

    Every single one of us is at times part of a minority. Whether we are visiting a stadium for a sporting event, gay, a resident of the state of Saxony, a homeowner, a dog owner or an inheritor -- all of us are dependent on the majority not issuing sweeping judgments against the group we belong to or seeking to repress it.

    For example, blaming refugees despite the fact that they havn't been really responsible for anything that happend in collogne, and using that as argument against Muslims in gernal or people with Arab herritage even though as we know a large part of the criminals in collogne have been black tunisians. Not to mention that the crime has lead to a lot of confussion, hysteria and lots of sometimes contradicting media coverage. Only in the aftermath, is it actually possible to paint a picture that's closer to what maybe really happend.

    Particularly as I am not sure, why we connect the criminal behaviour of some tunesians with their 'culture', but rioting drunk Germans who even blocked and attacked firefighters wounding them seriously while they tried to do their job resucing someone, is never conected to German 'drinking' culture - and such things are not rare in Germany, firefighters are quite often attacked by people, Germans mind you.

    Mixing culture in to all of this, since it is a very complex topic is very problematic in my opinion - where does one culture start and at which point the individual person and his behaviour? How and where do you draw the line? We already agree, that you can only blame individuals for their actions, things they actually do. You can't blame people for their culture, just as how you can't blame someone for being born in Germany. I am not saying that you do, I just point out why it's a problem because stereotypes are often mixed with culture and nationality. East europeans are drinkers, french are dirty frog eaters, Germans the nazis, Americans igorant you get the point.

    Culture isn't a clearly defined term nor is it easy to exactly pin point it. Even if we look at Japan which is a very homogenous nation due to their incredibly strict policy regarding legal immigration, Japan still displays a wide range of cultures within its own borders, where people from Fukuoka might have different traditions and behaviour compared to the people from Hirosaki. Now imagine that for regions that saw very huge transitions in the past, like the middle east or the US with its rich history of immigration, do you blame every american for the actions of someone likge Geroge W Bush, what of his decisions was influenced by his culture or his state?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
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  3. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Perhaps because Tunisian moslem's perception of women is dictated by their religion, which is part of their culture? The role of woman in the society is clearly defined in their religion, so is proper dress code and proper punishment for breaking the dress code. They are learning these concepts generation by generation, and they treat women accordingly. And while drinking beer or whatever can be considered to be a part of German culture, I really doubt that German parents teach their kids for centuries how to beat up fireman, so beating up firemen is not a part of German culture.

    Also, according to police chief responsible for that "racial profiling" incident in Germany, almost a half of these 650 men subjected to the police check turned out to be breaking local law - 190 of them were forbidden to enter the area due to aggressive behavior, 92 taken into custody and 27 arrested for various reason such as missing/false papers, or carrying weapon. Other half walked away freely, nothing wrong with this approach in my book. The same happens before any major footbal event here in Slovakia - hundreds of obviously aggressive fans or fans carrying suspiciously looking items are subjected to targeted police check. Those who don't break law can enter the area after subjecting to the check, other are turned away or arrested. I don't consider this to be racial profiling despite the fact that all these people are Slovaks.
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Cherry picking.

    How do you seperate the 'bad' parts of a culture from the 'good' ones? It was once a past time of the Germans to beat the jews, since when has that stoped to get out of fashion ... except, that some people still do it, and teach it to their kidz how bad the jews are. Is that part of German culture now?

    There is even a psychological effect, which name I forgot, but it has something to do with the fact that we tend to exagerate negative traits about others and always making conections to their personality, while we tend to trivializing our own mistakes trying to find excuses and explanations.

    Drinking has a long history in Germany, same with all the festivals and everything that comes wtih it. But we always ignore the negative effects that come with it. But the point isn't to compare cultures here, but to show that you can find negative traits in all religions, cultures and nations and there are a huge number of reasons, for example you now mixed religion together with culture. We are very liberal and progressive societies today, but we didn't reach this over night and honestly ... when I see how many people still have a problem with gays ... and I am not talking about Muslims, ordinary Germans - well the right wingers here really don't like us ... then I doubt it would take much to push this society again into a situation where I could loose my job simply due to my choice in lifestyle. OMG! A gay dude working with children! PERVERT!

    It is also interesing how fast some Germans become advocates of womans rights and defenders of their safety, while not giving a fuck about inequality, rapes by germans or what ever before the refugees appeared.

    You know, right now you do what you always do, every single time. You treat 'our' cultures (Germany, Slovakia etc.) as something diverse, you differentiate, you rationalize. But as soon as we come to anything that is 'foreign' to that, be it Islam or other nationalities you always generalize and exagerate you treat people like tunisians as an almost hive mind group of people. Even if those people have grown up with a certain background, like the role women have in their society, you kinda immidiately assume that none of them would be capable of learning and integrating them self into Germany for example.

    Sure. The thing is you can stop being a fan of a footbal team. But try to stop being black, or looking midle eastern. What about all those cases, where people have been wrongfully checked, held in custody simply based on their look, people which are not even africans maybe but just sharing a similar look a lot of Syrians are mistaken for turkish people for example. Not long ago I played chess with a refugee who fleed Syriah because he was a communist and atheist for example, but I bet most people will see in him just a 'middle eastern muslim'.

    You know, I just don't want something like this here in Germany:
     
  5. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Wrong.
    What do you consider to be "trivializing" are these parts where I painstakingly explain to you why military conflict or street clash between Germans and firemen cannot be considered to be a part of any national culture by very definition of the term. I do not trivialize these incidents at all.

    I never assumed anything like that, this is just you wrongly assuming what I assume, dude. As you always do, nothing new. All I wrote is that I don't see anything wrong with subjecting a group of people with the same cultural background, be it Tunisian or Slovak background, to a targeted check if they behave aggressively or suspiciously. Check them out, arrest anyone breaking local law, let the other walk away free. Applied personal responsibility. And don't tell me that groups of aggressive native Germans are allowed to rampage freely in the street without police noticing, please.

    Bollocks, you can put any other example instead of football here. Consider football to be publicly accessible event, just as the new year celebrations in Cologne. When hundreds of Slovaks carrying baseball bats or suscpiciously looking bags appear in Cologne, they would be rightfully subjected to the same police check as any other, skin color doesn't play any role here.
     
  6. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    Maybe the reason why eastern Europe continues to remain the backwards-ass place that it is, is maybe because western venture capitalists aren't too happy about investing in racist-ass backwards-ass places populated by a race of folks who are the eastern European equivalent of Cletus, the road-kill eater from Alabama. Except drinks a lot more cheap vodka or home made hooch that sometimes makes you blind.
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You're under the assumption that I ever made the claim this had anything to do with culture. I am trying to make the point that you can not make a clear distinction between 'culture' and 'behaviour', and that you can find negative 'group behaviour' in every nationality if you're looking hard enough. You're trying to tell me that events like cologne have something to do with a certain 'culture'. However, I am not convinced that growing up inside a patriarchy household has necessarily to lead to people which are showing viollence toward women or even going so far as to rape them. I am not saying that those are ideal conditions, or that I agree with such views. But I do not immediately assume that people aren't capable of actually learning and adapting or that all of those chauvinists are rapists, most people coming here actually obey the laws - see refugees and crime statistics. I work with a lot of troubled teenagers with all kinds of ethnicities (mostly muslims though) for weeks now, and I have a feeling their issues and views, has a lot more to do with finding their own identiy, being simply confused and frustrated, like many teenagers, with the addition of having no father, family issues and eventually even dealing with discrimination. I am far from beeing an expert, and I am looking for an education in that field, but that's simply the experience I made. And many of them are very willing and eager to learn, once you actually simply give them a little bit of recognition and attention.

    I just now realize how much of a difference it actually is if you're working with people from Syria, children/teenagers of immigrants and asylum seekers. Strange enough, refugees are extremly greatefull to everything you do and very friendly, except for those that are traumatized, but they are usually silent types not one that cause trouble. Second and third generations of immigrants, are much more difficult to deal with, showing frustration, anger issues, and all sorts of behavioural issues something that is simply typical for neglected children since I know that behaviour also from German ones. I often have no chance of reaching them, before I actually learn something about their history, possible abbuse and broken families with single parents beeing often the cause. I often have the feeling, that problems with the authorities have more to do with confussion rather than the culture of their parents which are often very hard working people, that have actually loost the right way to communicate with their children.

    Call me naive if you want. But I somehow can not imagine that any decent muslim who's teaching conservative and traditional values is kinda teaching his children that he should rape any women that's not veiled or covered. But I am sure you will find some obscure example again, and extrapolate it to 100 000 of people.

    Except, this might be actually in conflict with our constitution and that it is also highly ineffective in preventing crimes. See the US and their history of racial profiling. I am not against racial profiling because I see it as something highly immoral, I am against it because it simply doesn't work and creates more issues than it solves.

    According to new research, it is no more effective to profile strongly—that is, subject individuals to increased scrutiny in proportion to their presumed likelihood of malfeasance—than it is to randomly flag individuals in the general population when it comes to rooting out terrorism. The reason, says study author William Press, a computer scientist and computational biologist at the University of Texas at Austin: terrorists are vastly outnumbered by innocents, and it's a waste of time and money to screen and rescreen the same benign people.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/racial-profiling-terrorism-statistics/

    And it is even more likely that it will be at some point used aginst normal citizens, see here:


    But what it does, is creating a certain image in the head of every police officer and citizens about a certain group. I mean seriously the United States is the best example when it comes to black people.

    You know, you might think "yeah! Freaking leftists they always protect those minorities!". But history simply teached us some very harsh lessons when it comes to that, and where it can end up if we aren't carefull here if we're, mixing culture, ethnicity etc. into all of it, without ever looking at the nuances and correctly analysing the sitution at hand - See cologne and the links I provided. A lot of innocent people are affected by this, normal citizens.

    How often has the state accepted draconic measures, with the argument of safety and in the end it hits more innocent people than actually preventing crimes which are quite often blown out of proportion. Even cologne as horrorible as it was, is just a small number compared to all the rape incidence that happen each year with a population of 85 million people, same with terrorist attacks, like in London or Paris. Civil rights are there to protect minorities and normal citizens alike! And right now, we're not doing the right things - see the video from Kurzgesagt - but actually making it worse with this cry for more safety.

    So stereotypes don't exist for you? Is every human like a mindless robot juding people indifferently without ever placing any value on it? Please ... not even you can believe in that.Hell, even I have sterotypes in my mind for christs sake ... everyone has. Some have more, some have less.

    What you're doing is comparing apples with organes, are you even aware of what you're saying? You're saying that someone is already suspicious simply beacuse of his ethnicity or skin colour and comparing it with a group of people carrying baseball bats in to a public event. What exactly is a black tunisian doing to look suspicious which warants a profile based on his ethnicity? Because one year ago there was a huge crime it means every african in cologne is now 'suspicious' at new years eve? And you seriously don't see where the problem here is regarding civil rights?

    Again, a Slovak carrying baseball bats, can drop the bats and change his fan-clothes to ordinary ones. But a black person can not stop being black.

    If you're a police officer and you see someone carrying a potentially dangerous object in to a public event, then of course you have a REASON to detain and search that person. But the same is not true for someone just because he's looking like a typical Slovak, Tunisian, Arabian etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  8. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Not at all. On the contrary, what you're doing is trying to paint military action or some outburst of common street violence as a cultural trait to prove that you are right. Lame attempt, proving that you still don't understand the very meaning of term "culture".

    Straw man par excellence.
    Of course i don't believe that and you should be aware of it already, since I clearly acknowledged in previous posts that there's a lot of successfuly integrated gypsies in Slovakia respecting local law. Selective memory much? Cherry picking what fits your narrative? w/e, suit yourself.

    Yes, since a hundreds of men from North Africa commited mass crime year ago, very specific security measures have to take place every single year at this event from now.

    Just because there are preventive police checks on Czech borders, since there's a lot of human traffickers going through, doesn't mean that German government is racist toward Czechs or central/eastern Europeans. When some Slovak speaking person would have robbed a bank in German city and every single Slovak in the perimeter would have been checked by police doesn't mean German government is racist.

    Also, explain to me how would you like to treat wahhabists. There are thousands of them all across Germany, all of them dark-skinned or "of southern appearance" to be politically correct, and they are monitored by German authorities on a daily basis including very intrusive methods such as cell phones eavesdropping. Since they haven't done anything wrong with exception of being wahhabists influenced by centuries old holy war against infidels and being indoctrinated by their religon, i.e. their cultural background, according to your logic German government don't have any right for this. Monitored wahhabists haven't killed anyone yet, neither they broke any German law. What would you propose, shall we turn blind eye on them and let them walk free instead of this evil racial profiling thing? And, most importantly, do you really think that color of their skin is the very reason why they are monitored?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Again, I am saying that you can find negative traits in every culture and that you're like always, generalzing, neither doing any analysis or keeping the nuances in mind making no difference between traditions, religions, cultures and people that are simply idiots or criminals. You place value on cultures and ultimately people, you're a discrimatory person which you've prove often enough in your comments in this and other topics.

    Yes, a strawman that hurts people which simply look like north africans and will happend to be screened. See how that one works for black people in the US. You havn't given any kind of argument right now, except that you think this to be a strawman. You did also not adress the fact that racial profiling is largely ineffective. Like I said, it usually hits the wrong people.

    On such large events very strict safety measures should be taken regardless if there are africans present or not, that's the point I am trying to get in your thick slovakian skull! Doing it for ALL people is alright. Doing it for only a very specific ethnicity, is discrimination. Plane and simple.

    The police in cologne has been understaffed and underpaid for decades, which probably has done a lot more to this incident than anything else. Events like cologne are always a situation with high risks involved, at the Oktoberfest we once had a neo-nazi/extrem right winger attacking it with a bomb killing countless of people. Considering how long Germany had a problem with nationalism, racism and nazis would it be fair to say that this is part of German 'culture'? I don't think so. Like I said, you cherry pick and decide willy nilly what is 'culture' and what isn't.

    The same way how every radical group is treated in Germany - including extreme left, right groups and religious fundamentalists.

    By observation from the Verfassungsschutz.
     
  10. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Don't compare U.S. of America with Germany, German policemen don't shoot at people in routine papers check. Also I approve your sentiment of subjecting a group of potentially dangerous people with the same cultural, ideological, religious or whatever background to secret services' attention and shady manners, before they actually commited any crime. Seems you've finally understood something, you'll turn to hard boiled stalinist in no time! :smile:
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Just because we're not America (yet ...) doesn't mean our police officers don't to stupid shit while never facing charges. Like how they once shoot the student Benno Ohnesorg in the 1960s, the officer who killed him didn't had to serve any sentence.

    There are indeed relatively rare cases of police officers shooting someone, but you still have a very hard time to proove something, if it happens that police officers do something wrong against citizens. Eh, one reason for that is, that the police is allowed to do their own investigation, so there is a lot of comradery, where one police officers will testimony for the other.
     
  12. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    We had a very high profile choking, where two cops choked a (black) student to death for being loud and unruly at a welfare office. He had filmed staff with his phone, and yelled at them. According to hospital personell he was face down in the police van, and dead on arrival.
    People demanded investigation, and exactly what you describe happened. Cops were like "whatever you think you know, just un-know it, and know this: They did nothing wrong."

    They can never explain in detail how it wasn't wrong, because the absurdity will be too clear to everyone, so its just "nope, lalalalalala! Case closed!"

    this is extra frustrating in a country where you just can't kill anybody period, like, self-defense is virtually impossible to really prove, because they'll always get theoretical on you, like, how accurately did you calculate the chances of your own demise? Were you 60% sure you would die? Then you had no right to take lethal action, manslaughter, and off to prison!
     
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  13. GlutinousRice

    GlutinousRice Ne travaillez jamais

    Nov 7, 2015
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benno_Ohnesorg#Re-investigation
    I found it interesting that a Stasi agent shot a student to spark the rise of left wing violence and potential revolution in the BRD.
     
  14. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    Lot's of Stasi agents around. Some did if for money, some for other reasons. Still plenty of them that were never discovered. Also the info in your link points to a systemic problem within the West German justice system.

    Besides, at that time there was plenty more extreme-right violence.
    For example,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Bachmann
     
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    If you really want to get paranoid, then you should try to get stuff from the Swiss historian Daniele Ganser, he specialiced his research in the so called 'stay behind armies' of the NATO. During the cold war the NATO created a lot of paramilitary organisations with the intended role of acting as partisans if the Soviets ever decided to attack. Apparantly many nations had special divisions inside their intelligence service, which received training and equipment from the CIA.
    Ganser claims that some of those groups have been involved in certain terrorist attacks - see operation Gladio in Italy.
     
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  16. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    PERKELE!
    No idea how it looks like in eastern European countries and why. Here in central Yurop we remain overwhelmed by foreign western investors. With exception of small/middle companies and a couple big international companies owned by Slovaks, everything has been bought by western capital including strategic commodities business such as gas or electricity. Financial sector, industrial sector, foreign investors everywhere!

    Also I find funny that Geman foreign minister Sigmar Gabriel didn't hesitate to admit that he has "better and more deeply comprehended the Czech Republic's reserved stance" shortly after arriving at meeting in V4, Prague. Whether he was referring to pure financial reasons, social, or any else, is a mystery:
    http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/0...fugees-influx-not-quotas-german-minister-says

    You're welcome to travel here and taste few sips of Oskoruša, our ancient secret distilate from fruits beared by Jarabina Oskorušová tree, which is rare in Slovakia and rarely exported from here. After tasting this holy liquid you'll repent high quality yet tasteless Finnish vodka and you'll never be the same heathen as before.
     
  17. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    I always wanted to taste oskoruša fruit, but I've never actually seen it anywhere.
     
  18. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    You mean they should pay some of their leaders large sums to become informants and thus pretty much directly fund their activities, like what was revealed during the attempt to outlaw the NPD? I don't know if that's such a great idea.
    Or maybe they should shred files containing potentially important data related to murders commited by them after information on these murders goes public? Endless possiblilities.
     
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Bux, you're barking at the wrong tree here.

    I am aware about the NSU and all the other bullshit that's going on. But that has nothing to do with the insitution itself, but the morons who are in charge, Maaßen is an idiot no doubts about it.
     
  20. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    I just like being facetious. And Verfassungsschutz has a long history of blunders that borders on idiocy.
     
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