Fallout 4 is such garbage I don't want to fix it

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Charwo, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    XD okay man. New Vegas is an RPG with FPS elements. It is, in my opinion, far more of an rpg than an FPS. Unlike fallout 3 it never forces you into a corridor or forces you to fight. I think NV may be the most free out of the entire series in terms of player choice. It's not an FPS.
     
  2. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    To be fair, having solid FPS gameplay is better than having the Morrowind Style system of "This is technically First Person Real Time, but the mechanics work the way they would if this were turnbased" that Fallout 3 used.

    Sure I'd rather it wasn't an FPS to begin with, but if it's going to be First Person, I'd much rather it has the features of a competent FPS game.
     
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  3. Kohno

    Kohno A Smooth-Skin

    Jul 30, 2009
    It plays like one outside dialog. And Sawyer even said he wanted to improve the FPS experience. I think that's was a wrong move, they should've moved the other way and... at least put the combat focus more on VATS (making it more comprehensive a feature) than real time shooting.

    Fallout 3 didn't work like that, not the one I played anyway. Fallout 3, outside VATS, worked not much unlike early Serious Sam games with the enemyhordes being partly substituted with HP grind. New Vegas is not much different in that regard.
     
  4. nkchan16

    nkchan16 First time out of the vault

    Jul 27, 2016
    To me those were minor improvements, but you can add the hardcore mode as a vast improvement, which I always liked and used. Still, the game had every annoying aspect of a Bethesda game such as the bullet sponge enemies, annoying NPCs that kept telling you they were busy even though they had nothing to do, or forcing you to a dialogue in the middle of a fight and so on. Perhaps some of it was due to the limitations of the engine and tools used, but I also think that the people at Obsidian didn't really know how to handle an open-world game.

    Anyways, to me, FNV is basically a total conversion mod for Bethesda's Fallout that tried to bring back the feel of the original Fallout's in a 3rd person shooter style game, but I don't think it was very successful in that. Still better than any Fallout made by Bethesda. Overall, Bethesda has a very superficial understanding of Fallout, and doesn't give a damn either.
     
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I mean, if they're going to make this an FPSRPG hybrid, improving the FPS elements would definitely be the right move, IF they didn't remove the RPG elements and actually improve on it. Which is what Obsidian exactly did, even though the end product still held back by the atrocity that is Gamebryo engine.

    Of which Fallout 4 did the total opposite, and they're not the ones who improve the FPS elements, and also add some bullshit gimmicks and totally broke the RPG elements. Besides, what would you prefer: moment-to-moment gameplay of Fallout 3 or that of New Vegas?
     
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  6. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Dec 6, 2016
    Fallout NV can be finalized without cheats and you only have to kill two npcs (Benny and Mr. House) and you do not even have to shoot or hit they for that. It's not an FPS with RPG elements, it's the opposite.
     
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  7. Kohno

    Kohno A Smooth-Skin

    Jul 30, 2009
    That's the mistake. First person perspective need not mean first person shooter.

    I see little practical difference there. People always tended to cut New Vegas some slack even where they really shouldn't. I did too before the novelty of the "Obsidian narrative design" wore off. I mean, if there was to be a New Vegas 2, it would play almost exactly like Fallout 4 with better narrative design, and people would forgive the gameplay... "oh, it's not FPS, the focus is on roleplaying, it has FPS elements and shitty engine, greatest sequel ever, believe me....". There is improvement to the previous in NV no doubt, but it's really nothing miraculous, and some of it is just wrong (like the iron sights and still holding on to the HP sponges).

    This is all the precise reason I can't play the game anymore. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.

    New Vegas has an earned cult status (of a kind...), but it's not a flawless diamond that did all the right moves it could in the situation it was in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  8. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    You don't have to kill them to finish the game.
     
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  9. Charwo

    Charwo It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Mar 9, 2017
    I don't have a problem with it being an FPS hybrid. I actually like the gameplay. The problem is when FPS becomes lazy and shooting people is ALL YOU CAN DO. But even New Vegas didn't have a real viable non-lethal system: no go no experincefor knowing peoiple out, you couldn't loot there gear nor could you detain them and take them someplace for bounty (I would have loved a way to caputre people and sell them to the Legion). Dishonred is first person but it never runs out of stargeies to not kill people. In fact the biggest thing I wanted for Fallout 4 was the ability to choke out and tranq enemeies and hide their still living bodies to clear dungeons without bloodshed.
     
  10. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 First time out of the vault

    Oct 27, 2017
    As writers, they do and add whatever looks cool.

    They think "Man, wouldn't it be cool if we had a bullet time button that gives you a Burnout-style slomo killcam?" and add it in, without bothering to balance the game around it. They make it "Accessible" to fps newbies by CREATING A COVER SHOOTER WHERE YOU DON'T NEED TO AIM, FIRE AT THE RIGHT TIME, OR EVEN USE COVER MOST OF THE TIME.

    Then in Fallout 4, they add a perk that buffs VATS to their oversimplified stupid-ass harder-to-mod perk menu screen, a perk that LETS YOU SHOOT THROUGH WALLS IN VATS, AND AFTER AN UPGRADE, SHOOT THROUGH WALLS WITHOUT EVEN TAKING A PENALTY TO HIT CHANCE.

    It's a cover shooter IN WHICH YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO COME OUT FROM COVER.

    Bethesda want to make big shiny cool spectacles with minimal playtesting or thought put into them. They want to wow people with on-rails shooting sections and "Walk through a big battle with a robot on your side" segments, which is where they blow their budget. They wanted runtime hours in Fallout 4, so they added bootleg-minecraft mechanics and forced-grinding mechanics and everything they could to pad the game out short of ripping off animal crossing or sims and giving the settlement RNG-NPCs their own randomly selected personality traits.

    And to keep their games as marketable, "Accessible", and normie-friendly as possible, they make their games insultingly simple and insultingly easy, with difficulty sliders only turning enemies into more annoying bullet sponges than usual while making the game less convenient and adding in more forced-grinding mechanics and EVEN GOING AS FAR AS TO DISABLE FAST TRAVEL FOR HARDCORE MODE PLAYERS SO YOU HAVE TO WALK FROM SETTLEMENT TO SETTLEMENT.
     
  11. nkchan16

    nkchan16 First time out of the vault

    Jul 27, 2016
  12. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Dec 6, 2016
    heh. So spot on.
     
  13. Ediros

    Ediros A Smooth-Skin

    Feb 4, 2016
    As a reminder :

     
  14. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I don't know, man. Because compared to the slog and atrocity that is Fallout 3, adding (a more stable) ironsights helps a lot with the one thing player is going to do ALOT in the game: shooting. Again, I repeat, this is a perspective that's taking into account that the game is a yuge improvement to Fallout 3 in that regard, not taking into consideration that there's better system out there.

    I'm guessing you have better suggestion as to what better combat mechanics New Vegas could've used instead of improving FPS mechanics? I really can't see New Vegas working like blobbers. The only real reason people cut New Vegas some slack was because they're put on the leash by Bethesda in almost every way. Putting a mode where the camera would change from FPP/TPP to bird's eye view or something similar is just not an option, because they're not even allowed to use their own engine of choice.

    And I'd say it's not just narrative design that Obsidian strongly made in New Vegas. Quest design, from mechanical perspective, comes to mind. Many other gameplay elements like proper crafting, Mojave Outpost dropbox which is there to help alleviates packrat mentality, Hardcore mode, Damage Threshold and corresponding ammo type system which literally eliminates bullet sponges and HP bloats.... there are a lot of things Obsidian did right to cement the fact that New Vegas is STILL a proper RPG, that it is, as Cobra Commander stated, actually an RPG with FPS elements, not the other way around. It's a return to form of classical Fallouts while still getting by at pleasing modern audiences.

    However, this doesn't mean I see New Vegas as any better than Fallout 1 or even 2, because of just how much atrocious Gamebryo engine is.

    Again, New Vegas added Damage Threshold AND corresponding ammo type system which literally eliminates bullet sponges and HP bloats. And there's really nothing wrong with adding ironsights (especially since it's a more stable implementation, on top of that) because the series is now moving forward as an RPG-FPS hybrid. Especially because they add all of this improvement without removing important aspect of Fallout as an RPG, and in fact they added some back after Fallout 3 removed them. That, in and of itself, is already a miracle.

    Again, what 'right moves' you felt it didn't do considering the situation it was in?
     
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  15. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 First time out of the vault

    Oct 27, 2017
    Anyone else notice that since most of Fallout New Vegas takes place in a biiiig open wastelands and enemies are often shooting at you from rather far away, VATS is no longer the overpowered guaranteed-kill cover-shooter-on-easy-mode button it used to be? It's still pretty good if you have high stats, but it doesn't ruin the game any more, it's just something you can use to pause and get a moment to breathe, then disable it and fire because your aimer just got aimed at the guy's head for no AP cost.
     
  16. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    Especially after they nerfed Grim Reaper perk.
     
  17. Kohno

    Kohno A Smooth-Skin

    Jul 30, 2009
    Why "again"? Have you asked this before and have I left it unanswered?

    Anyway, the 'right' moves....

    Projectile skills should have affected gameplay much more, heavier effect on accuracy more specifically. This would've been perfectly doable, but did not happen due to Sawyer's apparent hatred of letting the character fail at what they are prompted to do. He criticised Morrowind for going 50/50, he criticised XCOM for having to-hit chances, he criticised Alpha Protocol for the accuracy impairments, he intentionally favored damage progression over accuracy progression in NV (and said so himself), he originally wouldn't have allowed characters to miss in PoE but changed his mind due to backer pressure (and it was then like "Ok, there's now a small chance of missing, but the rest is crit hits, good hits and less good hits").

    The guns and ew skills did so very little in the game that they could've almost be absent.

    Sawyers knack for balancing also made the choices between guns and ew almost an irrelevant one as they were balanced to work so similiarly (Sawyer himself has spitballed how that could've been improved...). There's very little practical distinction inspite what it might say on paper with ew -DT stuff and all. That could've well been differently handled, and again the skills did so very little to the gameplay....

    Merging Big Guns with guns and ew had a logic behind it, but for the same reason as above, it kind of trivialized them.

    The ammotypes and DT actually play into my original criticism of the game working too much like an FPS since it does cut down even the HP grind, even that is now mitigated from the characters aptitude. :D

    They could've well chopped the map in pieces and reintroduced the world map travel between hubs (that this time around would've offered explorable landscapes as well). '

    VATS wasn't altered enough. It was still the sort of panic button safeguard. They should've boldly gone deeper into making it a genuine and somewhat comprehensive combat feature.

    Bethesda has earned most of all criticism they've gotten, but two things they did better. They understood that pleas and begs deserve a %-check while expressing knowledge comes with flat threshold. And generally (as Sawyer too has admitted), the dialog checks were kind of "I win" conditions, which they shouldn't have been.

    And the other would be how repair skill worked in Fallout 3... Buying your gun into mintness in NV with 20 duplicates was awful. It would've made the skill much much more worthwhile if it had determined how much the character actually knows how to repair. That, if it was out of the question to make repairing a skillcheck (or at least how much repairing is done via an attempt).

    They could've also well stripped the minigames and allowed the PC to do his dues accordingly with lockpicking and hacking.

    They could've added character based interactivity to the world and objects to underline the mechanical intrigue and meaning of the characerbuild.

    There's more, but you get the gist. The game is not going to change anymore, but I would hope people recognized that while there's a lot of good things to say about New Vegas, it's not beyond criticism; and the full on "Obsidian defence force" mode that excuses all the faults and shortcomings and makes up odd diversions ("Not FPS with RPG elements but RPG with FPS elements", that's... I don't even know what it means here, the game plays the way it plays, the combat there plays the way it does....) often sounds frighteningly lot of Bethesda goons from 9 years ago dismissing all criticisms of Fallout 3.

    I'm trying to look at things objectively, without the certain coloured glasses that are often fit in my head. I don't always succeed with that, but while I admit the good things, I also don't excuse that the game does suffer from a lot of the same things as Fallout 3 does and that those things were fixable. It's all in hindsight now, but it is what it is nonetheless. The minute to minute gameplay flow is just boring, not much more exciting or different than Fallout 3 or 4.

    I'm also not trying to turn anyones head around on whether they should or shouldn't like New Vegas, in case someone thinks that. I'm just trying stir some discussion on an apparently taboo subject here.


    EDIT - to get a bit more back on topic.... Fallout 4 is an unfixable bucket of trash, as everbody knows.

    Which is of course a bit of a shame since there's potential in what Bethesda does, it could well be leashed to do something actually interesting, they just intentionally butcher it all themselves.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  18. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Fair criticism there ^.

    Although we do need to remember that Obsidian would have needed at least 6 months just focusing on learning (from someone skilled from Bethesda) and tweaking the engine to accommodate most of those changes. We need to remember that they didn't have "learning time" with the engine before they started to actually make the game. They got the engine and had 18 months to learn and edit it while already making the game.

    Even now, so many years after the game was released modders that have been messing around and learning the engine for that long (or longer if we count Fallout 3) are finding new things and how others work.

    From a engine point of view, we can tell Obsidian rushed through it, it broke a lot of stuff in the engine and had to makeshift quite a few other things. It is like when you open the hood of a car and the engine is running ok even though you can see it has some things broken but it is kept going together with bubblegum and duct-tape. IIRC, for example multibounds and the sound engine are broken, they had to improvise with the sound using sound markers for the game to have environmental music... They removed the tree LOD (this was actually an improvement in the end) and made trees use object LOD (I am pretty sure it was because they didn't know how tree LOD worked and how to create it, since it is more complicated than object LOD) they actually removed the tree LOD from the engine (my best guess would be that they tried to use it, failled, found out that objects LOD is simpler and just used that, or they tried and broke tree LOD beyond repair and just scraped it), they didn't even made normals for most weapon textures. We can see how they rushed in many parts to get the game out in time.
     
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  19. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Dec 6, 2016
    Vats was changed. In FO3 you only take 10% of damage while in vats (75% in NV). Combine with Grim Reaper's Sprint and you are invencible. =/
     
  20. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    First Person/Action Games should not make player skill effect accuracy, that's terrible game design IMO.

    Skills effecting accuracy works perfectly in turn based games, sure, but in a first person game, you generally go under the assumption that when you loose a bow, the arrow will land where you were aiming for.

    Adopting a Morrowind System where you can do everything perfectly, but still consistently miss the target because your skill isn't high enough generally instils the player with a feeling that they are doing something wrong.

    It is a reasonable expectation that if you are launching a projectile, or swinging a blade that where the hit lands is based on where it's aimed at. Making it so it's based on skill whether you hit or not doesn't make you feel more in control of your character, it instinctively makes you wonder whether your reflexes aren't good enough.

    For an RPG/FPS hybrid, the ideal system would be one where skills effect damage but not accuracy. In this kind of system, weapons you aren't skilled with would still be incredibly inefficient, to the extent you wouldn't bother using them, but at the same time you don't get the unsatisfactory feeling of arrows launching off in random directions.
    I don't think Bethesda would allow a system that there fans wouldn't be able to wrap there heads round.
    I don't think they had much power when it came to getting rid of iconic things that 3 introduced.

    I dislike the minigames too, but 3 was well known for them, so NV had to keep them.
     
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