Gun Control

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Throatpunch, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Vault Fossil

    Oct 27, 2003
    I am 'filibustering', because if one is going to bring about laws that could possibly affect every American gun owner, it is not asking too much for people to say things CORRECTLY.

    'I want bump stock legislation because it DOES increase the RoF of a weapon.'

    That is a much more accurate and concise response rather than,

    'Bumps stocks are full auto hur.'
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    And that's the problem. I am not bringing any 'laws', I am not an expert, I do not want to bann weapons.
     
  3. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Vault Fossil

    Oct 27, 2003
    Crni

    I am not talking about YOU, I have said this. I am talking about people like Emmy.
     
  4. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    The Irony.
     
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yes, the irony because I am pretty sure that you understood very well that I am not an expert here, that I said several times that I don't want to 'remove' guns and that I actually want you to keep yours and I am also confident that you know I wasn't talking about bolt rifles and pistols.

    So yeah.
     
  6. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Of course but you left it vague and ambiguous, thus my mocking of it. And that is the problem with all these proposed gun laws, they are all vague and ambiguous or in the case of the banning of the barrel shroud, out right retarded. Speaking of retarded check this out.

    Both of these are the Mini 14. One is banned California because it's black and scary with a pistol grip. Thus whenever a Gun Owner is told that sensible gun laws should be passed they roll their eyes because some old wrinkly fuck in Cali thought this was sensible.
     
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  7. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    Rifles don't even account for the majority of shooting related deaths. Pistols are perfectly legal and the number one firearm used in homicides. Legislators really make you think.
     
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  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Like I said, gun culture is a part of the problem.
     
  9. Urban Predator

    Urban Predator First time out of the vault

    Jan 9, 2018
    (bear in mind here, this is an Englishman's perspective, and relates to the UK)

    Here, we have RIDICULOUSLY overbearing firearms laws. Owning anything other than an antique muzzle-loading weapon firing powder and ball without a license, excluding kid's plastic bb airsoft 'guns', and airguns under a certain pressure rating, is illegal, and with a license, a shotgun being either a break action double or single or tri-barreled shotgun, or a pump action with a mag size of no more than two shells, meaning two in the mag and one in the chamber, is obtainable.

    TECHNICALLY firearms certificates exist. But nobody will ever get them. Hunters can also IIRC obtain permits for some low caliber bolt action rifles, although these are restricted to rimfire cartridges only, and even a .22 centerfire round is illegal (IMO ridiculous. What difference does the way the hammer hits the primer and the primer ignites the powder have on the end result of the powder igniting and propelling the bullet out of the barrel? not much I should imagine)

    Even the olympic pistol teams had to train out of the country, so restrictive are these laws. Not sure, but that MIGHT have been changed. But even for the olympic team, apparently it is a crime for one shooter to even physically contact the gun of another. Meaning they could if witnessed or snitched up, be arrested and punished were a shooter to drop their loaded weapon with the safety off and they were to act in order to catch the other's gun before it hit the ground and prevent an accidental discharge.

    Little old ladies have been arrested when they have been the victims of a crime, and without ever having interacted with, or even knowing about the gun being present in the house, after the filth turned up and found it, whilst (probably either illegally, or by duping or outright threatening and bullying the old pensioner crime victim into allowing the pork to search her house) present, and finding their now-deceased former husband's old WWII service revolver. I remember a case where this actually happened. And she was punished too, IIRC.

    Makes me thoroughly sick. The govt. here wants to keep its citizens in a defenceless state, so they can easily send police to assault anybody they want if they decide to do so and know the populace cannot mount a resistance, no matter how far corrupt and bent a government in power might become.

    The guns are criminal to own, ergo only the criminals have guns, bar a few that are required for working, such as farmer's shotguns or vetinary captive-bolt guns for humanely killing animals and DIY nailguns. Meaning the gun owners here, and there are plenty of the buggers, are all violent criminals if they have anything other than those, or an airgun. Which also means that anybody who pisses off a person who turns out to be a member of some crime family, gang or thug etc. is kept defenseless, whilst the latter, who don't give a toss about the law to begin with by their very nature as criminal thugs, can be armed to the teeth and be sure to meet no resistance with a firearm when they decide to go and inflict a punishment kneecapping on some mother who spoke out against them, on their own doorstep in view of the mother's little children.

    This outright wrong IMO. We should be entitled to, of course with SOME regulation, be able to obtain firearms certificates and obtain viable weapons. Hell I've been made a victim by the pigs myself. Arrested and held, without access to water, after they knew from previous harassment that I owned a perfectly legal dart-rifle and a couple of airguns, and they made up the excuse to obtain a warrant that they 'knew I had a sawnoff double barreled shotgun' (in reality, a single-barreled, scoped break action .177 cal. air rifle), and a gas powered airpistol, plus a break action single shot .22 air pistol that was weak as hell, and had only been bought so I could modify it and turn it into a fixed-mounted bench-top gene gun (a tool for genetic engineering, used for implantation of genetic material, plasmids etc. thats a lot simpler than having to custom build the likes of a retroviral vector)

    They couldn't charge me. Yet despite admitting that they had no legal authority to keep the guns, they repeatedly refused to return them, and basically stole them, then destroyed them all. Those who are expected to enforce the law here make it up as they go along (I have heard one pig actually say this, verbatim, that they make it up as they go along) in whatever way suits them best as and when they feel like it. And getting redress has been difficult, and is starting to feel impossible, although I will be pressing charges. No more regard for the law than the violent gangland criminals in my experience, and selectively enforced to suit their whims (the whims of the pigs that is). I've even had a bottle of SOCl2 stolen, plus several containers of n-dodecyl mercaptan, neither illegal to own. The thionyl chloride, is on the chemical weapons register as a precursor subject to regulation. However that regulation is as follows 'facilities producing and/or selling more than 30 tonnes annually must declare this officially'. Even a donut-munching swine of the dumbest possible kind cannot possibly mistake a single glass bottle containing, after I'd used whatever quantity I'd used by the time it was stolen by the pigs, cannot possibly contain 30 tons, simply by virtue of being a glass bottle of a size that a man can pick up and hold in one hand. I doubt I could FIT 30 tons of SOCl2 in the house and garden put together if I stripped the house bare of furnishings.

    Even after acknowledging that nothing they took was illegal, no licenses needed, and that I lawfully owned the property, what did they do? again refuse to return it, and thus, stole it. Then destroyed both the SOCl2 and the dodecanethiol (which isn't even mentioned in any legislation, nor is it anything like a terrorist's chemical weapon. It stinks something awful, being a mercaptan type sulfurous compound, but even then, is comparatively mild compared to most other mercaptan/thiols due to the high molecular weight.

    The criminals here operate with relative impunity, whilst the innocent are harassed and punished extrajudicially, by pigs who are no different to criminals themselves. IMO the overzealous gun laws here, should be changed. Because people need the ability to protect themselves when those officially tasked with doing so, refuse to do their jobs, and even to protect themselves and their homes, property and relatives, as well as their liberty from these legally empowered, seemingly oversight and law-immune thugs with badges.

    Edit-@bigguycia-of course legislators make one think. One must, upon matters of law, and which ones to follow, which ones to bend or to piss all over. WE must think on these because otherwise nobody would think at all, the legislative arms of governments invariably do not. Rather, they chiefly respond by way of a knee-jerk when something kicks off. Bunch of cretinous backwards verminous wriggling little maggots, vomiting forth their stomach contents upon the decaying filth on which they feed, in order to digest their meal. And unfortunately, not only upon the government, but upon people, too.

    The gun laws were tightened to a ridiculous extent after the atrocity that was the Dunblane school shooting. A single incident does not a global, overall threat make. Yes, it was a tragedy and a barbarous atrocity, but all the same, it was a single incident, which now means nobody has much chance of defending themselves either against the murderous criminal thug gangs, or the murderous, thieving gang of thugs invested with a uniform and socalled authority.

    No, I'm not much of a conformist sheeple in that respect. I can't afford to be in my line of work. But despite certain laws needing to be ignored, (don't think, btw that I ignore them all. Rather, of course, I respect such against cold blooded murder, as long as the target were not to be a rapist/child molester or torturer of animals or the most vulnerable of people, I'm no thief, but in my line of work, ignoring certain 'laws' such as the disgusting psychoactive substances bill introduced after that bitch theresa may slimed It's way into power as PM, banning without respect in the least to safety or danger to society any psychoactive poses, blanket-bans them ALL, save for nicotine, alcohol and caffeine. The ones the government rakes in massive profits from, whilst in the case of tobacco, while they do stupid things such as banning open display of tobacco products, shops now being required to hide all their tobacco produce behind shutters, and not even allowed to open them for an adult to see what they have in order to tell the shopkeep what they want to buy. And also, banning smaller packs of tobacco, claiming they want to decrease tobacco consumption. Now a smoker buying say, rollup baccy cannot buy 12.5/14g packs of burn, but are forced to buy ones containing just over an ounce. In the name, apparently of stopping kids smoking and reducing overall consumption-by INCREASING the quantity of tobacco which must be bought as a minimum)

    And taxation of a drug they KNOW without doubt to be severely harmful to society, whilst blanket-banning drugs that as of the moment I type this post, have yet even to be invented. Its already illegal, before ever being conceived of on paper, let alone my whipping out the flasks, plugging in condensers, connecting up the vacuum pump and starting to weigh out reagents to create something new. For example, the 3-bromo-4-(1,1-difluoromethoxy)-5-methoxyphenethylamine, as well as the corresponding amphetamine and its corresponding pthalimidopropiophenone* are illegal, yet I cannot even find a research paper in cell lines determining affinity for serotonin receptors for these future psychedelics via radioligand displacement assay. These will be novel psychedelics, totally untested in man, I'll probably be the very first to taste them)

    (*the pthalimidopropiophenone is essentially a cathinone [beta-ketoamphetamine], protected as the pthalimide, which is designed to stabilize it, until it enters the stomach to be diluted in solution where stomach acid cleaves off pthalic acid, because the psychedelic amphetamines or cathinones unlike simple stimulants such as say, meth, or entactogens like MDMA and analogs, are ultra-unstable, especially as the freebase, when they dimerize so fast to form an inert pyrazine compound, that one ends up with useless purple polymeric crud between the time one could place a powder in a measuring cup, add H2O and then draw it up into a measuring syringe for volumetric dilution for sub-milligram precision, which of course is a precaution I always take when testing an entirely new compound such as these novel mescaline analogs, the product, after all the effort it would take to prepare it, wouldn't even make it to having fully been introduced to the measuring syringe before turning to the inactive pyrazine purple crap)

    A little invention of mine, to protect the amino nitrogen, so that it can't turn back like a scorpion's tail and 'sting' that poor little carbonyl group to condense with another molecule of the product and form rubbish, yet when sufficiently diluted in stomach juices that one molecule is less likely to meet another, and kept in acidic conditions, the pthalimidopropiophenones serve to permit primary amine cathinones to exist and survive and be active when studied in man (I don't ever, ever test in animals, I loathe the very concept of subjecting those who cannot consent to such things). And to be able to be stored on a shelf in a vial without degrading in mere seconds.

    That kind of law I can neither respect, nor follow. As an inventor and selfemployed chemist, its just incompatible with both that, and my respect for the freedom of people to own and have the final, ultimate say on what may, or may not happen to or be done to or with their own bodies. In just the same way as a woman or man as the freedom to say 'no' or 'yes' to sex, and the absolute right not to be raped, a person's mind is a person's own. A principle I consider sacred and inviolable, no matter what my be written in lexae legis. Nobody has the right to FORCE me to consume a thing of any sort, and by the same token, nobody has the right to demand, and threaten or assault me to force me not to do so. I would never so much as force another to take a mouthful of beer, I have not that right, let alone to demand they not do so if it is their wish. And less still to threaten to kidnap them, to steal from them, potentially even send armed shock-troops prepared to kill them.

    The laws for the good of the individual and for the protection of rights, those I respect. Otherwise, I live by my own code of personal ethics, that I will not swerve from because of some bullying attack-dogs and their masters/mistresses. I find I cannot bring myself to respect such abominations, as would violate the sanctity of body and mind inherent to every human being and indeed every other being which has the capacity to suffer. I'm not religious, but that principle is one I hold as close to being holy, as anything in my worldview can possess the attribute of holiness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  10. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    Which aspects? I.e. what part of gun culture is responsible for mass-shootings and/or gun violence in general?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    The idea of masculinity in conjuction with weapons for example.

    Bear in mind, that I am not saying how much it contributes to a mass shooting and how much of a problem it is. Not every schmock on Youtube presenting his guns like the love of his live, is now in danger of becoming a school shooter or mass shooter and not every mass shooter probably saw weapons as an extension of his 'manlyness' - However the overwhelming majority of mass shooters are males, I am not sure what the conclussion of that should be, but it's something that's really not much talked about usually. It is a very complex problems after all.

    But no other object represents power, strength and control like weapons do, particularly firearms. Anything of that, of course isn't for it self negative, hell people can love guns and be productive members of their society, that's not the point. Again, weapons don't make mass shooters, but I don't think that it's illogical for someone with a frail personality or insecure manhood for what ever reason, because he's bullied or girls think of him as a weirdo, try to look for substitutes. For some people, it's the muscle car, for others the gym, and some look out for firearms that make them a 'bad ass' fantasying about it how powerfull it makes them. With no clue 99% of the people this is more self-destructive if they take it to the extreme. But then you have those few that take it out on others, because they don't blame themself like most people do when they run in to issues, but those few that are crazy if you so will, they actually want to get out there and punish everyone and thus look for something that is relatively easily accessible and lets them kill as many people as possible. Not every mass shooter is the same of course.

    Just so you don't missunderstand me, I am not saying the culture breeds those people, I am just saying the current gun culture in the US worsens an already exist disposition in some people if you compare the US gun culture for example with the one in Switzerland or Canada. It's like the missuse of alcohol if you want so, where alcohol for it self isn't making wife beaters, but it sure isn't helping the situation if a wife beater is also a heavy drinker.

    And the way how a society accepts and treats certain behaviours simply is a part of the problem.

     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  12. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010

    Yeah, there might be some issues with the messages they're sending.
     
  13. Urban Predator

    Urban Predator First time out of the vault

    Jan 9, 2018
    To quote Crni Vuk:

    ''It's like the missuse of alcohol if you want so, where alcohol for it self isn't making wife beaters, but it sure isn't helping the situation if a wife beater is also a heavy drinker.''

    THIS.

    A bastard will be a bastard, regardless of whether or not they possess a firearm. Be it a wifebeater or one who would commit mass murder. A mass killer without access to any but the most basic, primitive and slow-loading projectile weapons, will find another method. Be it a knife, a sword, an axe, or even a motor vehicle. Anybody could construct a flamethrower, or molotovs. Explosives too, are not difficult to make, a child could learn to do so (in fact I myself, used to play with a grenade launcher I built as a kid, that fired 76mm shells loaded with a variety of different explosives, from flashpowders to TNT+booster and a primary such as Hg fulminate, used to play with all manner of low and high explosives before I was yet 9yo)

    So people could do it. Hell, whilst I myself have not done so, the ingredients for making (sulfur) mustard are all available from a DIY store with an attached garden center, along with common salt and a DC power source for chlorine generation.

    Or for those not so bright, a motor vehicle. That last has been well enough illustrated by virtue of the fact that islamite terrorists have used trucks to mow down mass casualties. Disaffected kids could still do that, even without their own vehicle, after hijacking a vehicle, killing the occupant with a bladed or blunt force instrument.

    In short, if someone is going to, out of the blue, take out a large group of people, they will do so whether or not they are able to obtain a repeat-fire projectile weapon.

    Even primitive weapons like tin cans filled with ball bearings and gunpowder to make shrapnel grenades would do the same thing in an even shorter time than a firearm, since one need only throw the grenade and a single one be used per room of people. Anybody who can buy from ebay could buy the potassium or sodium nitrate. Anybody can buy sulfur, either ready-powdered from garden centers (I get my sulfur from both sources) or as solid sticks from vetinary/pet stores.

    The last ingredient, being charcoal. Nobody in any environment bar certain islands, cannot obtain wood and if needs be make the charcoal themselves, or else buy it easily enough. Mix the three in the correct proportions and one has gunpowder. Or else the nitrate could be mixed with sulfuric acid bog cleaner and distilled with simple glassware from ebay, and used with more sulfuric to nitrate various organics, toluene for TNT, glycerine from a pharmacy for nitroglycerine to make dynamite.

    So no guns needed. Any bastard determined to be bastardly will find their way to exercise their bastardliness. If there is chatter, then it could be stopped, but someone disaffected who talks of it to nobody, the first anyone will know of such a 'cleanskin' lone wolf type attacker, is when they attack. I don't see how such individuals, especially if working totally alone, can possibly be stopped, bar by an individual who happens to be present at a targeted location who is in possession of a firearm, or is close enough to physically tackle the attacker and prevent their pulling the trigger of fr.ex a homemade grenade launcher. I never used mine to harm a person, I only used it to play, to have fun, firing at non-living targets where people were not present.

    If folk can't get nitrates, then they can get chlorates, also usable for explosives and incendiaries. By passing a stream of chlorine gas (obtainable from table salt if desparate, elsewise from hypochlorite bleach and muriatic acid, or permanganate and the same hydrochloric acid or hypochlorite bleach) through caustic soda solution which is kept hot (when hot, the product is almost entirely chlorate, if the Cl2 be piped through a solution of caustic soda or potash kept cold, then one gets hypochlorite as the product.) and chlorate can be used to prepare the more useful (for explosives) perchlorates via electrolytic processes.
     
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yes, but the idea of restrictions and legislations is not to prevent all crimes from happing but to make it more difficult for them. This sadly includes that law abbiding citizens have to deal with a lot of difficulties which might sometimes seem draconic.

    But we're simply not living in the 17th century anymore, where you had to depend for the most part on your self, we are living in very conected societies with very sophisticated infrastuctures where a single individual can do a hell lot of damage.
     
  15. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    The bottom issue is how exactly are those criminals not in the same standing as everyone else. Really, how is THAT radical the difference in level of Bob the Law Abiding Citizien and Kenny the School Shooter? One of the most common suggestions for reform is to be very constricting with dirty records. Drunk driving? Aggressive behaviour? Why the fuck should the be allowed to get - gun as everyone else?

    Would love to see any more "mass killings" with motor vehicles that amount to more than gun ones. The Nice one stands on 87 injured, which is the record of that modus operandi and happened in the place and moment where it could do the most possible damage. But yeah, it's not like vehicles and more so larger ones like trucks have "any" sort of heavy regulation or something. You could get one anytime and take it anywhere, totes.

    You sure seem to readily abstract the perks of a firearm. Like if it was just the same as a weathered staff or a slingshot. The problem is that even a retard can understand its basic function. It's not rocket science "aim and press the button" and, until we discover our psionic potential, the bar non simplest and fastest way to kill anyone, oneself included.

    When you're able to admit that maybe we can go on.
     
  16. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Indeed. like when they banned handguns in Chicago/New York/Washington D.C. and all the gang members couldn't kill each other anymore......heywaitaminute.
    Sounds like something a person would say if they never heard a pack of coyotes take down a cow before. It's usually city dwellers who think we aren't a sun fart away from being knocked back to the stone age, that might just be the boy scout in me but I digress. It's a big place with Lions, Dinosaurs and Bears oh my that your typical European can't truly comprehend. Why type of dangerous wildlife would you encounter in Europe outside of a roving rape gang or soccer hooligans?
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    How can they still have weapon owners if they are all banned?

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...l-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

    Illinois
    The gun ownership rate in Illinois is 26.2 percent.

    Here, Dr. Shandrea Boyd shoots at the Eagle Sports gun range during a concealed-carry certification test in Oak Forest.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/14/


    The gun ownership rate in New York is 10.3 percent.

    The illegal guns seem here were seized by the New York Police Department in 2013 in the largest such operation in city history.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/3/


    The gun ownership rate in Washington state is 27.7 percent.

    Here, a woman displays her rifle to fellow demonstrators during a pro-gun rally in Olympia.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/18/

    The last thing I heard is that even those cow boys you're talking about own cars and have access to the internet. Again, I do NOT(!) say that all guns should be removed for christs sake.

    I am still talking about gun culture and the effects it has on your society.

    But yes, we digress.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  18. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    They don't work. California is steadily moving towards banning handguns with their draconian rule-lawyering. It's embarrassing.

    You can't even begin to imagine how little these laws actually work, and how they'll just shift the market towards engaging in black-market sales. Now you have an increase of unregistered firearms - it's a legislators worst nightmare. Police don't even know where to begin with regulating this.

    I can already just go buy a featureless AR-15 rifle which totally bypasses the need to register it as an assault rifle, and just purchase parts online and convert it to a normal rifle.
     
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    So lets do nothing instead and just continue ... why not legalize murder by the way? I mean you cant stop it apparantly anyway.

    The thing is, that you can make meaningfull legislations, that you don't have to take away all weapons, that you just have to make a registry, allow people only to own weapons if they have a permit, make better background checks and close loop holes, make it sure that it becomes as difficult as possible for criminals to get their hands on weapons, make sure that people can't get a gun without a licence and so on. Let the people keep their weapons, but make sure that there are better ways for the authorities to react on the warning signs, make sure that weapon owners are educated better. A lot of nations do this, and I do not understand where the issue is. Does it mean weapon owners have to do more? Yes, yes it does. But those things aren't toys, weapons can inflict a lot of danger and regulations can save lives.

    I quote:
    Chicago’s seemingly intractable problem with gun violence is one of America’s fondest fascinations. It’s also a myth. Chicago has more gun murders than other large cities like New York and Los Angeles, thanks mostly to its long, unsecured border with North Alabamastan (sometimes called Indiana). However, Chicago’s murder rate still lags far behind the nation’s leaders, many of which are in red states with loose gun restrictions.
    (...)
    A Chicagoan can walk across a street into Indiana and purchase firearms from an unlicensed seller with no tracking of that transaction. That person can then walk back across the street into Chicago and commit a crime. This is a common practice. Most of the guns used in a crime in Chicago are originally purchased in Indiana or Mississippi. And of course, Indiana’s rate of gun deaths is roughly a third higher than in Illinois.
     
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  20. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Because the laws where considered unconstitutional and were revoked.
    Damn Meth addicts are breaking into my barn, best get the Sheriff on Skype so he can drive the 3 hours to my farm to stop them.
    Just like how Ancient Chinese Ninja Sword culture is to blame for when some guy goes all ginsu on a child's hospital.
    Obviously crime should be made illegal.