Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Throatpunch, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    The one thing that always brings me to Mr. House's side is the fact that he is always honest with the player. Sometimes he will refuse to elaborate on a subject, but considering his position that is a wise choice.

    The other faction related bobble heads are always touting some philosophical determination where as Mr. House simply wants to have humanity make actual progress again. Instead of fighting against the powers of the region he makes actual intelligent choices and maneuvers his assets into place to obtain the best gains from the given scenario.

    Consider this for a moment, Mr. House was alive before the bombs fell and was accustomed to a more "refined" lifestyle than the average wastelander. If you were in his position how likely is it you would try to rebuild and uplift what is left of humanity? Therefore I submit this, he is simply trying to find a way to get back to true form so that he can actually stretch his legs (mind) on more interesting conundrums such as making scientific progress once again.

    If you were locked in a metal meat bag container watching years go by, you might as well do something with your time. Remember even though he is a can of meat attached to a computer there is still the human factor to incorporate into the equation.
     
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  2. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I don't side with Mister House with my characters who are actually trying to "save" the Wasteland because they tend to go for either NCR or an Independent free Vegas under their benevolent rule.

    Instead, the first character I had who sided with Mr. House was my "Hitman with a Heart" character who was based on one of my novel characters. The Hitman sided with Mr. House for much simpler and less exotic reasons than the other people involved in New Vegas--Mr. House was his employer and an honest one at that.

    In the case of a Courier who wasn't interested in all the ridiculous talk about national expansion, destiny, saving humanity, and so on--the storyline goes like this: Mister House has given you a swanky pad at the Lucky 38 and he's paid you generously in caps. If you're NOT ambitious to become a Wasteland messiah then he's a perfectly viable person to keep a life of luxury and cool for you.

    My character also was a consummate professional who found the idea of going against his employer to be asinine.
     
  3. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    Mr. House's approach to "leading" with the courier is not really that of leading. It's more a mutual understanding with fiscal benefits plus perks (After all the courier is literally acting as an extension of Mr. House, one would think he would protect his investment.). As the courier does various tasks for Mr. House there are moments where the courier can actually impact Mr. House's decisions as well influence Mr. House's out world appearance to the local population.

    Consider this for a moment, Mr. House employs the courier, but in doing so accepts him under his umbrella of protection. In return he expects the same from the courier as well to be the "public face" (Which I think he does state) in which they can both influence the local events unfolding around them. Mr. House does nothing all day but analyse data, and make up plans, and the courier runs around the Mojave randomly doing things. It's when these two unique personalities are matched that the real work starts to get done.

    The entire "chip" debacle had Mr. House's plans on hold for a very long time, Benny's betrayal further prevented progress from being achieved, however unlike most people the courier would encounter in the Mojave Mr. House did something unique. He only requested the chip back, leaving Benny to the couriers discretion. Mr. House isn't motivated by anger, revenge, impatience, or even whimsy; he is however motivated by progress, innovation, and science.

    Comparatively when we look at other would-be leaders in the Fallout universe, Mr. House literally outshines them all (Because of the lucky 38 hehe). He does this by not focusing on petty issues that are "beneath him" but focusing on legit problems and actively tries to solve them in the best possible manner.

    Atrocities Mr. House is not involved in:
    • Dipping people in green goo
    • Revive failed government systems
    • Preach false religions or oversee a cult
    • Horde technology by force
    • Consistently militaristic
    • experiment on innocent civilians
    • kidnap, or rape people
    • Canabalism
    • Distribute illicit substances and/or contraband
    • Murder without reason or justification
    • Ostracize a group for no reason
    • Engage in blood sports
    • Sell or acquire slave labor
    Actions Mr. House has taken:
    • Personally preserved most of Vegas from nuclear destruction (The local survivors of the area directly benefited from this action)
    • Engage in successful diplomacy with tribal gangs, governments, and cultures in the Mojave
    • Planned and initiated the renovation of the New Vegas Strip
    • Provided a police force to maintain peace
    • Influenced trade, taxes, and businesses in his local region
    • Influenced an outside group to "tour" his town and encouraged spending to boost his local economy
    • Provided a safe and fun environment for people to enjoy without fear of the wasteland
    • Actually started an economy where there wasn't one
    • Maintains a distance from peoples private affairs
    • Provided work for reasonable wages and benefits
    • Provided housing
    • Energized a trade oriented workforce to learn and practice various vocations
    From the data I have been able to sift through, Mr. House is a paragon of good in the wasteland. Granted he treats the population outside the strip walls with indifference, but to be honest telling people how to live their lives isn't is intention. Because of this various businesses have popped up directly outside of the strip that service the local non tourist region. These businesses only scrape some of the revenue that Mr. House brought into the strip, without him there would be no money.

    Place yourself in his position, why do you have to plan out every newcomers life, housing, work, and choices? I know I wouldn't, and realistically no one should. Mr. House's style of leadership forces those who live nearby to either rise above the others and progress or be jettisoned as the human filth that they are.
     
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  4. Ediros

    Ediros A Smooth-Skin

    Feb 4, 2016
    Actually, hey @Black Angel, this is something that bothers me. Tell me, why exactly do you think House is better Yes-Man?

    Some things to consider:
    -Yes-Man and House both have got the same resources and access to the same databanks, including House's future plans and all the knowledge he stored. Granted, Yes-Man is an AI without 200 years of experience or being able to succesfully create Robco Industries. Still, I imagine the results would be pretty similar, considering how many calculations you have to run.
    -Yes-Man is a machine, only loyal to the courier and he doesn't die even if you kill him - he just moves to the next body. Cut off House, his plans fall apart. And what's stopping anyone from hacking his network and cutting him off long enough to kill him? I mean, Benny with help of a follower of Apocalypse managed to do so and steal the platinum chip from the courier.
    -Yes-Man also can discuss the different opinions. You can ask him what to do with boomers, while House just orders you aren't never really caring about your opinion only consequences of your actions.
     
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Short version: He's got shit done, all by himself and in rather short time. In 7 years he rehabilitated 3 groups of tribal, cleaned up and rebuilt at least some parts of Las Vegas ruins while restoring them to a working order, just in time to welcome the NCR, AND made a treaty with them to restore Hoover Dam and keep the Legion at the east side of Colorado River. And then during the 7 years before the game begin, he kept the NCR at bay from annexing any parts of Mojave Wasteland, while simultaneous worked hard to recover the Platinum Chip. The search for the Chip, as argued in earlier pages of this thread, was a rather aimless and blind search for something so small that was lost for 200 years and could've been anywhere, yet it was found anyway and managed to move as close to Mr. House as Goodsprings, with the only 'error' in the plan not considering that Benny is a wild card. All of that, coupled with what we see in the ending slides (provided we did the 'right' thing), I wholeheartedly believe that Mr. House can achieve whatever it is he planned once he gained full control of Hoover Dam without the NCR breathing down his neck.

    Long version: Just read this entire thread, and also Einhanderc's posts above.

    I don't think the results would be 'pretty similar', considering House is a human, while Yes Man is an AI. Yes, House needs a life-support to see him staying alive through the whole ordeal, and yes who knows how long until the life support fails. But House is a human, and he possess visions and wits that no other man has, AND he also have humanity that no kind of AI could possess. Even with all of future plans and knowledge that House possessed, I think Yes Man wouldn't have the same visions and wits to truly use all of the information like House did.

    "Yes-Man"? "Only loyal to the Courier"? Ha!

    Okay, I guess you can say the Courier could reprogram Yes-Man to become only loyal to him/her/it, reversing Benny's work on Yes-Man which previously made the Securitron to answer every questions asked of it AND do whatever it's told no matter who it interacts with. Now, here's the catch: What's stopping anyone from hacking Yes-Man's network and cutting it long enough to reprogram it to do as this hacker's want it to do?

    One thing about either going for House or Independent is, there's really not that much difference between either one. When you hook Yes-Man's defective program to the entire network to let him take over in place of House, you're exposing Yes-Man to whatever risks you can think of that might happen to Mr. House. The only difference is that now House's visions and wits are now lost.

    But isn't our opinion greatly influences our choices and, therefore, consequences of it? Because in case of the Boomers, House definitely wanted to add their arsenal to help with the inevitably coming battle for Hoover Dam, so he wants the Courier to gain their support, BUT if the Courier couldn't then at least must ensure their neutrality by eliminating their leadership.

    I also think that you fail to see that, while House's orders are absolute and final (especially in case of the BoS, but that's for another discussion), he never really set the methods in stone. Like the aforementioned Boomers case, he want us to gain their support OR eliminate their participation from the coming battle, no matter the method, so we have a degree of freedom on how to do it. Remember, if you have Good Karma, House would proclaim how he's proud in choosing you as his lieutenant in the ending slide, and the way to Good Karma is not something that House cared for, but it's your choice.
     
  6. Ediros

    Ediros A Smooth-Skin

    Feb 4, 2016
    Fair enough, Yes-Man lacks the intuition and House's experience, no argument here. However, I think you are omitting courier's influence here. Of course you can play the courier as a mercennary, then House definitely is the best option. However, with Good karma-Courier and I quote: "Supporting the ideals of independence, the Courier was recognized as the man/woman responsible for a truly free New Vegas. He/she ensured Mr. House's tyranny was broken and neither Caesar's Legion nor NCR would ever gain control over New Vegas".

    In comparison House: "The Courier, fair and kind-hearted to those in the Wasteland, ensured that Mr. House would keep New Vegas stable and secure for future generations. Mr. House afforded him/her every luxury at his disposal in the Lucky 38, out of gratitude - and a quiet sense of pride for his choice in lieutenants."

    Tyranny is not a nice word, don't you think? Besides, there other things that happen around the world. Also, Stable and Secure for future generations? You mean like Gambling? House likes his snowglobes, doesn't he?

    1.Boomers:
    Independent: "Though the Wasteland became anarchic after Hoover Dam, the Boomers' display of power dissuaded fortune seekers from attempting to penetrate Nellis."

    House: "Mr. House showed little interest on the Boomers, who eventually began venturing out of² Nellis to meet and trade with travelers."

    Here House ignores Boomers. While independent New Vegas will struggle for some time, due to House's death, Boomers are unaffected one way or another. AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GUYS WHO HAVE A GOD DAMN WORKING BOMBER + home made fuel + mortars. Great insight here, House. I mean, if House really was that smart, why didn't he at the bare minimum establish some trade routes and such?

    Also, even NCR establish decent relationship: "With the help of the Gun Runners, the Boomers developed a healthy trading relationship with the NCR. Eventually the Boomers began wandering out into the wasteland, while still preventing outsiders from entering Nellis."

    2.Followers get screwed over in almost every way, so we will omit them.

    3.Arcade:

    House: "Though Arcade was proud to have been one of the defenders who turned back the Legion at Hoover Dam, he was crushed by Mr. House's ascent to power. Saddened by the loss of life and liberty in the area, Arcade left the Mojave Wasteland for parts unknown. He was never heard from again."

    Independent: :Arcade was proud to have been one of the defenders who helped repel the Legion from Hoover Dam. He was prouder still to see the area freed from the shackles of the NCR and Mr. House. Though independence for New Vegas was not all he hoped it could be, Arcade used his Enclave knowledge and technology to keep order wherever he could."

    I mean, sure, independent is more chaotic, not denying that. However, loss of liberty and life in New Vegas? That does not sound like House just lets people do whatever they want. I mean, it rather implies that people there have to accept his rule with no argument and most likely heavy taxation. Tyrant, much?

    4.GoodSprings:

    House: "After Mr. House gained control of New Vegas, he sent a Securitron to Goodsprings as a token of appreciation for helping the Courier. Victor was a mixed blessing, however, as he continually monitored the town for Mr. House."

    Independent: "With New Vegas' independence formally declared, Goodsprings thrived. More travelers stopped by Goodsprings on their way to and from the Strip, and the locals grew prosperous from the traffic."

    Goodsprings comes out on top in independent ending. House here rather keeps an eye 24/7, like a big brother. So he most likely can and will keep the income of the town in mind and regulate it accordingly. Don't believe me? Here comes Primm.

    5.Primm:

    House I - NCR retreats: "Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Mr. House. As repayment for their NCR loyalty, Mr. House sends Securitrons to Primm to "protect" it and collect heavy taxes from its citizens." Of course, if you reprogram Primm Slim or let Meyers in, it gets better. In fact, other endings like NCR or Yes-Man it prospers one way or another, the exception being legion.

    Of course in my scenario, it is not all sun and rainbows either: "Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to the Courier. Independent again, Primm operates much as it had before the Powder Gangs arrived, full of ups and downs." So the town is getting on, even without House.

    Though, this one is a bit more separated, so let's leave it at that.

    6.Cass:

    House: "Cass lived to see Hoover Dam in its Old World glory, humming with power the likes of which the Mojave had never seen. Vegas burned brighter than ever, securitrons filled the streets, and Cass's heart skipped... just a little. Her last words were to the Dam - and to herself. "We were going full speed ahead... but facing backwards the whole time.""

    Independent: "Cass lived to see the Courier bring down three armies and by her count, that was three more than she'd expected. She'd kept quiet about that, though."

    This one is a bit odd, but note the key phrase: "We were going full speed ahead... but facing backwards the whole time."

    This sentence here is very important, it implies that House may bring development and such, but in his flawed Old World way. Of course, he has already proven that he can thrive in Wasteland by rebuilding the Strip and such. However, this coupled with heavy taxes and most likely a police state, brings rather questionable outlook on the House.

    7.Kings:

    House: "Accusing The Kings of lying with a foreign invader for their newfound ties to the NCR, Mr. House punished them by ordering their forced removal. The Kings, defiant to the end, were destroyed to the last man by House's Securitrons." - when you ease the tension between NCR and Kings. Was there really a need to destroy them to the last man? I suppose, the squaters could become a threat or sabotage the strip, but still... And to make it worse, here is what happens if you do not ease the tensions:

    House 2:" During the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, some Kings took it upon themselves to launch several attacks on NCR citizens and soldiers around Freeside. Mr. House looked on these actions favorably, seeing them as proof of The Kings' loyalty to New Vegas, and decided to leave them alone."

    Leave them alone, that's it? No words of appraisal, no securitrons to help with the crime, just let the people fend for themselves. Granted House does not have resources to spare on rebuilding Freeside with goals, but considering he is ready to wipe them out to the last man, based on assumption, does not make him look like a good leader.

    Also, independent endings:

    Independent 1:"Following the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, Freeside came to be known as one of the more stable areas in the region. Ironically, NCR refugees found Freeside safer than most of the rest of New Vegas, where resentment still lingers."

    Safer than rest of the New Vegas, doens't that mean that Kings are doing pretty decent job at protecting the Freeside?

    Independent 2: "In the aftermath of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, The Kings took the opportunity to viciously force all NCR citizens out of Freeside. Travelers from the Republic quickly learned to avoid Freeside if they valued their safety." So here, we push out the squaters and make NCR avoid this area. This one is for the better, since squaters are most often gamblers who lost everything and thugs. In a way it helps Freeside. Also, don't you think antagonizing citizens of powerful country like NCR seems like a bad idea, don't you think?


    Well, I imagine shutting down an actual AI is a bit harder than walking inside the lucky 38, hacking a few terminals without password and blowing House's head off. Also, a direct quote from J.E.Sawyer:

    "Fan: Why'd you imply that Yes Man was going to take over in the Independent ending? After going to all the work to take Vegas over myself it was kind of a bummer to learn Dave Foley was going to take it all away.

    JE Sawyer: That's not the implication." DUN DUN DUUUN!

    "Fan: Then what is the implication? That seems to be what everyone reads into it-- Yes Man reprogramming himself to be more 'assertive' is kind of ominous!

    JE Sawyer: That he will not just roll over for the next person to walk up to him in the Courier's absence. I.e. he will become a somewhat-independent steward instead of a powerful tool for any random person to use for nefarious purposes.

    So, yep. Yes-Man does reprogram himself to become more like Alfred to Batman.


    Fair enough, we get to choose how to deal with different factions, House just says, which is the best option for it, if you manage it. However, I don't remember ever House what would happen if Kings were to stop antagonizng NCR. I mean, we get that quest, but House just straight out decides what to do, without an option to ask about it. A leader, who does not listen to his subject's corcerns seems pretty poor in that regard.

    Your turn ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017 at 8:05 PM
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  7. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    In the end, it all comes down to a matter of taste. I think the end of Yes Man is the most childish of all. The idea of replacing an entire faction with you makes me never choose that end.
     
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  8. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Just addressing some stuff from that other post, but I don't feel like going through 18 pages from more than a year ago. A clean start on a new thread, started with the developed arguments might be a good idea, but here's all I feel like saying atm.

    1.House makes better decisions than anyone else possibly could.

    That's a bald assumption. They are a genius, but they are not irreplaceable. He was born human, and no indication has ever been given that his intellect is cybernetically enhanced or anything. Being that skilled at electronics doesn't mean that they're the worlds greatest strategist or leader. Any number of other geniuses of the same scale could already exist. In fact it's only a matter of time before they're born. Also, the fact that the Courier is actually willing to listen to others means they don't have to rely on a singular genius. The wisdom of crowds should not be overlooked. It's something House is diametrically opposed to. The Courier doesn't need to know how to create a giant robot that no one else could build, to be a better strategist or leader. Clearly they can outmaneuver House and everyone else to come out on top.

    2.House is more terrifying than the Courier, therefore the NCR would be less likely to come back.

    Even without killing House and taking all his stuff the Courier is not someone to take lightly. After that and everything else you can do in game I seriously doubt they're thinking 'well at least we don't have to deal with House'. If anything their list of achievements would be absolutely terrifying.
     
  9. Ediros

    Ediros A Smooth-Skin

    Feb 4, 2016
    I would argue it is less of a replacing the faction with a Courier, rather giving an AI a way to help guide the people, with Courier being the one keeping it in check. Yes-Man is not bound by emotions, which makes him a subpar negotiator but a Courier with good speech could help ease these concerns. Not to mention, having an AI, a neutral party not bound by hormones or body would make it a better leader rather than a bunch of corrupted brahmim barrons. Besides, I imagine the Courier would install some sort of switch button or at the very bare minimum create the directive to make both Mojave and humans prosper, but not the way calculator did it.
     
  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Well, your Courier can be a super-genius ubermensch saint who has ties to the Big Empty and thus has even more resources than House.
     
  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Yes, House is a tyrant. Though he prefers autocrat. No one in the Strip WANTS Mister House to be their Boss but he is an accepted ruler by the laws of the Wasteland: I.e. "I will fuck up your shit unless you do what I say."

    The thing is NCR isn't wanted either or the Independent Courier. No one is a democratic leader and the concept is almost alien.

    Yep, House likes a Good Karma courier. He's a decidedly Neutral character -- too greedy and flawed to be a good man himself but proud of the people who do good things. I'm inclined to think a GK Courier is meant to be a moderating influence on House's policies and someone who makes him a force of good in the wasteland.

    Well, Mister House isn't trying to conquer the Wasteland. One of the things which is important to remember is House and Independent ending don't talk about create a Mojave State. It's about creating Vegas as a City-State ala Vault City. House may make friendship with the Boomers but he doesn't want their stuff, just wants to make sure they're not going to come after him.

    I'm kind of wondering what that's about because House isn't a guy who cares about personal freedoms, only obedience as you say. EXCEPT THAT'S BULLSHIT. House forced the three tribes to give up their heritage, beliefs, and culture to act like parodies of Old World Vegas ideals.

    Mind you, that would have been beneficial when the Powder Gangers attacked.

    Primm is outside of House's interest basically.

    Well, House wants to rebuild the Old World and is a totalitarian capitalist. Basically, I foresee Vegas becoming identical to Bioshock's Rapture except maybe a little better off.
     
  12. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    In my house (no pun intended please), I am the boss.

    House lifted that shit out of nowhere, as some user pointed out a some posts above, 7 years and is already one of the most incredible places in the US of his time.

    He did it alone. He did it because he wanted to. He does not have the slightest obligation to give satisfaction to anyone. He save that shit of complete annihilation.

    If you (character or NPC) do not like it, then fuck you. No one is obliged to stay there. Nobody is a prisoner and everyone who House thinks they can enter HIS HOUSE has the right to come and go.

    House is a tyrant? Because he put rules in, again, HIS HOUSE?

    Vegas has fresh water, clean electricity, is completely immune to any air attack. Vegas has jobs, leisure and culture. He did it alone.

    Want to blame House for something? Well, he´s a asshole for what he did to Vault 21. Also a asshole in the King slide ending ( blame bad writing than anything. After all, you have to have something negative for this end, right?). And that is it.

    House save your life and you go there, kill him and steal his city. You steal the results of honest work.

    House is a tyrant? Then you are a parasit.

    edit: About Vault 21. When in Vegas, do it as if you were in Vegas. House won the Vault in a card game, so it's not like he forced his way in there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017 at 2:23 AM
  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    As much as I like House, he's not quite the bedrock on which civilization was built in New Vegas. He stole the technology to make all the repairs and rebuilding possible from Vault 21--which was a fully functional and stable society beforehand. He also didn't respect the freedom of the tribals he enslaved but made them act out roles which suited his attitude.
     
  14. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    I think he only pick spares parts from there. But it's just guesswork on my part.

    Absurd. They made a deal, a deal also extend to the Khans. As they are idiots and hardheads, House drove them out of the ruins of Vegas.

    In All Roads, Benny order Swank to kill a guy who wanted to go back to the old days of the Boot Riders. was Benny who did, not Mr. House. That is, even open opposition was allowed. The only thing he rightly forbade was cannibalism.

    It was a deal so tightly tied up that he not even is free to send a Securitron into the casinos. Come to think of it, he was really naive in this deal.

    There´s no slavery in Vegas. Well, there´s Joana, the prostitute, but it´s just because she is Cachino´s toy. Sweetie worked for the Omertas, but she left when she wanted to.

    edit:
    now, if you want to play fanfic I'm in. Let's say House just awake up and with the Securitrons fully upgraded.

    Would he drive out all the tribes there? Certainly. And he would be right. This guys are not Sorrows or Arroyo tribals. He is dealing here with cannibals and murderers.
    now, if you want to play fanfic I'm in. Let's say House just awake up and with the Securitrons fully upgraded.

    Would he drive out all the tribes there? Certainly. And he would be right. This guys are not Sorrows or Arroyo tribals. He is dealing here with cannibals and murderers.

    another important point to say. At the exact moment that NCR discovered about Vegas, they went there to do what NCR does best. Attach by force. But House had already walled the city and established the defenses with robots and tribes.

    But NCR never gave up on the plan to kill him and take the city for themself. What does that remind you of? Oh yes, any other end where a courier does not work for House. :falloutonline:

    You there, yes you, in your game, you kill the raiders because they take things by force, using any method, including murder?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017 at 5:33 AM