Gnarles Bronson
regular mutant
No, that's silly. Do other people on here think that?
Censorship? There is no censorship!
- Thread starter cronicler
- Start date
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
you should also notice that when i posted a scenario back on page 19 or so, they said women would take the "lower paying" job because of cultural/societal sexism.
of course then you can point out that you can run the numbers 2 different ways, one showing a pay gap in favor of men, and the other showing a pay gap in favor of women and nothing was ever said about that.
which is an inherent problem when figuring out a pay gap. you can run numbers showing a pay gap either way.
of course then you can point out that you can run the numbers 2 different ways, one showing a pay gap in favor of men, and the other showing a pay gap in favor of women and nothing was ever said about that.
which is an inherent problem when figuring out a pay gap. you can run numbers showing a pay gap either way.
Does it really matter though?
If I am honest, this is more or less hair splitting in my opinion. It doesnt really matter so much why it happens, but actually that it has to dissapear. I know, we still have a very long way before we get there, but that still males and females should receive equal pay for equal work.
No clue. I just had the feeling from your posts that you followed that idea. Anyway, good that we got that out of the way
If I am honest, this is more or less hair splitting in my opinion. It doesnt really matter so much why it happens, but actually that it has to dissapear. I know, we still have a very long way before we get there, but that still males and females should receive equal pay for equal work.
No clue. I just had the feeling from your posts that you followed that idea. Anyway, good that we got that out of the way
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Akratus
Bleep bloop.
Isn't it illegal to pay people differently based on sex, for the same job?
Georgdie Tait said:
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Gnarles Bronson
regular mutant
It does matter though, doesn't it? If, for example, the pay discrepancies were completely explained by a higher percentage of women leaving to raise families, then women shouldn't be paid the same as men, right? They are not working for as long and aren't as committed employees due to their own preferences (in this hypothetical). Only if women are being prejudiced against should an inequality be corrected, not if it's simply due to a difference in preferences.
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now you make a case out of it. You work less, you get less money. That is somewhat expected.
What I am talking about is the same amount of work, with the same quality. More or less. 2 engineers, with the same education, doing the same job. One gets more than the other though.
We can talk about the reasons and what we believe is true or not. But as this topic has shown very clearly, it leads us to pretty much to nowhere. But many of us sure love writing novels about our opinions ...
Albeit, no matter what you believe is the case, you can't be against equality. For females and males. And when I say equality then I am talking in a broader sense, not the idea to make everything equal, but to create equal opportunities. To pay females and males the same amount of money for their jobs, would be a pretty good start.
*Edit
Again, I am talking about inequality, and there can be no doubts that they still exist in our modern society. Sure, it's not the apartheid regime we are talking about here. But I hope you get the picture. Still. Our society has still a very long way to go before we really get there.
What I am talking about is the same amount of work, with the same quality. More or less. 2 engineers, with the same education, doing the same job. One gets more than the other though.
We can talk about the reasons and what we believe is true or not. But as this topic has shown very clearly, it leads us to pretty much to nowhere. But many of us sure love writing novels about our opinions ...
Albeit, no matter what you believe is the case, you can't be against equality. For females and males. And when I say equality then I am talking in a broader sense, not the idea to make everything equal, but to create equal opportunities. To pay females and males the same amount of money for their jobs, would be a pretty good start.
*Edit
Again, I am talking about inequality, and there can be no doubts that they still exist in our modern society. Sure, it's not the apartheid regime we are talking about here. But I hope you get the picture. Still. Our society has still a very long way to go before we really get there.
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Akratus
Bleep bloop.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I'm sure it's only because its so hard for women to enter these jobs and the sexism at work! Otherwise they'd be standing in lines to do this work!11
http://www.makers.com/barbara-burns
http://www.wmc-usa.org/
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45b/140.html
There are women in mining and they are fighting for the right to work in mining.
Furthermore, that's beside the point. Your insistence that women should continue to be discriminated against in cushy high paying jobs because they aren't as actively campaigning for the right to work in low paying, dirty jobs is beyond idiotic. Maybe, instead of looking for idiotic image memes to share, you might want to look up a few facts, like sexual harassment present in professions considered dirty or otherwise male only.
So maybe you stop being a muppet and do some goddamn research for a change.
Akratus
Bleep bloop.
Why? And don't tell me to do the research, because obviously you already have. So why is it "beyond stupid"? And don't repeat 'sexual harassment' because pretty much every goddamn job used to be men only and would have resulted in sexual harassment problems. So why did women tackle the blue collar jobs first? Wouldn't tackling the really hard, dirty jobs prove their point better, namely that they are in all respects equal to men? And does that mean that women are also "beyond stupid"?
I'm also appaled by the fact that you insinuate that manual labourers are more likely to cause sexual harassment then blue collar workers. That's a fine example of discrimination, dude. I suppose manual labourers are even more "beyond stupid", huh? Wow, you're just a moral compass of equality, aren't you?
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Gnarles Bronson
regular mutant
Nas92
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Is that really ever claimed? I've been reading some of these feminist writer's theoretical work - I had to, free credit course - and although they are hard to understand for me, as far as I can tell they don't claim that men and women are equal in all respects. Nor do they claim the problem stops with women, they also seem to be concerned with racism, extreme nationalism, lookism, whateverism, and all that there. Then again I didn't really delve deeply enough, pretty sure many of you are more informed on this subject.
Well, the goal is that women should be able to change how the world works, as well as men. Garbage disposal is an important thing, but the garbage disposal workers can't really say that they are able to change as many things as politicians, businessmen, etc.
Akratus
Bleep bloop.
We shouldn't equate all feminists and social justice activists. In fact, I see Tagaziel and Sander make the kind of argument alot that because they can move the argument to something bigger (i.e. the entirety of feminism/women etc.) they somehow refute the original much smaller argument.
The fact that we went from gaming journalism to international sexist culture says a lot, I think. Isn't it the mark of a bad debater that they can not engage the original argument on it's own ground? Just pondering.
The fact that we went from gaming journalism to international sexist culture says a lot, I think. Isn't it the mark of a bad debater that they can not engage the original argument on it's own ground? Just pondering.
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There are two factors at work, here. The first is the (actually pretty reasonable) assumption that most gender differences are cultural, which is something that science just keeps confirming. The second is that we have oodles and oodles of social science research showing many, many different ways in which those cultural differences manifest as group differences. So we actually have a fairly decent idea how stereotypes affect views of others and our views of ourselves. How cultural concepts of gender inferiority have an effect on gendered performance, and how other cultural concepts influence many decisions everyone makes.
Physiology isn't ignored, really. There's a ton of research into physiological factors -- the problem is that all of that research is very inconclusive and often conflated with cultural factors.
We should be aiming to remove as many barriers as possible, which is something we are very, very far removed from doing, and we should be aiming to strip our culture of notions of which genders are supposed to do which jobs and which genders are good at which things, because we know that that has a negative effect on performance and participation.Gnarles Bronson said:
The people who think that "yeah but men have it difficult in these situations" is somehow a counter-argument to feminism must not have read very much feminist theory, because that is standard theory and has been for forty+ years. The idea that women didn't campaign for access to and inequality in low-paying jobs is ludicrous -- the main areas of activity in early 20th-century feminism were suffrage, and better pay in and access to low-paying jobs for women, specifically because financial autonomy is kind of a useful thing.
Sophistry does not replace an argument, alec. But to indulge you:
Why should blue collar jobs come first? The argument rests on the assumption that women are inferior to men and should somehow prove that they are equal to men, according to arbitrary criteria relying not on actual economic and labor factors, but culture and perception of a particular occupation by society.
And yes, sexual harassment is a problem. Especially in jobs that are presented in popular culture as masculine, creating the impression that women are somehow unfit for them. Same goes for jobs presented as feminine and creating the impression that men are unfit for them (though they are far, far fewer in number than the former).
Protip: Blue collar jobs are jobs that generally involve manual labour. The term you're looking for is white collar job.
Protip 2: Maybe instead of JAQing off, you'd do some research of your own.
I hope you are not using this as argument, that females should accept less payment for doing the same job like a male though? But I don't think that is your intention.
Albeit for me it isn't really a surprise that certain jobs dont create the same kind of outcry.
I am personaly not so worried about the fact that there are many areas where you have only very few males or females doing the job, a lot of it can be explained by history and traditions, see the military for example. Some jobs also simply create more prestige.
What actually really disturbs me is the extremly low number of females in leading positions in politics, industry, economics and the media (advertesting for example). I mean this in general. I talked about this already before. Compare the demographic 50% male/female, yet in most cases only between 10%-30% of the positions in politics are female.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
ok, YOU do know that none of these "wage/pay gap" studies are actually researching what they claim right?
yes, it has been illegal for a long time. this is NOT what these studies are actually looking at.
the gender "pay gap" studies are not actually investigating the pay gap for men doing A and women doing A, but rather all men doing A through Z compared to all women doing A through Z. now some of these comparisons try to compare people doing job A. some of them try to compare men doing job A to women doing job F.
actual pay-based sexual discrimination is men at company A doing job A compared to women at company A doing job A and getting an unequal compensation package. you also have to recognize there is a possiblity for men+women at company A doing job A where the men pick schedule+compensation package F and women pick schedule+compensation package G.
these studies dont actually look for specific gender pay gaps.
1) there are 2 ways to figure pay. hourly or total. both can be used to "hide" the truth.
2) yes, that is actual pay equity, and that is what laws currently ensure. that is NOT what these studies are actually looking at. they are looking at something else.
3) its called "equality of opportunity" which is legally required in the US. that is not what people who talk about pay gaps are actually looking for.
4) there is very little evidence of actual pay inequality. if there was, that is what people would be talking about.
if you look at the history, you will notice Sander and Tagz always coloring gamergate with the actions of the trolls/harassers, despite claims from non-gamergate groups claiming responsibility.
yet when it comes to feminists and anti-gamergate, those doing it are nothing more than a fringe element and do not reflect at all upon the whole. even when i called them on it, they said it was not a double standard.
and the transition to larger sexist cultural issues is by design. that is their defense whenever you try to call them out on specifics. they change the argument from specific instances which become "fake controversies" to amorphous claims of cultural/societal sexism and discrimination.
To say this, I am not used with the US and their paygab, if it is a reality or not. Hence why I really don't want to say much about it.
All I know is that I have just to look at the industry and politics to know that there is still no equallity. Unless you want to tell me that for some reasons females don't belong in to politics or the management of large companies.
Most of this "my statistic is bigger then yours" thing that some of you have going, honestly it doesnt really interest me even one inch.
I feel like you all are arguing for nothing right now. Its like one side is on a Crussade to teach the words of the lord while the others are on a Dschihad to protect the message of their god.
All I know is that I have just to look at the industry and politics to know that there is still no equallity. Unless you want to tell me that for some reasons females don't belong in to politics or the management of large companies.
Most of this "my statistic is bigger then yours" thing that some of you have going, honestly it doesnt really interest me even one inch.
I feel like you all are arguing for nothing right now. Its like one side is on a Crussade to teach the words of the lord while the others are on a Dschihad to protect the message of their god.
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