NCR-Brotherhood War - possible outcomes.

Artemis

First time out of the vault
Hello!

I was visiting this forum for quite some time, and finally decided to create my own account. Mainly because it's the only place where I can share my perspective on current state of Fallout franchise. It's good to know that I am not the only one that see the mistakes that have been made to this title, and how Fallout 4 is became wasted potential.

But lets go straight to the point.

I'm currently interested in the topic of NCR-Brotherhood War, from the point where NCR lose the Vegas because of the Legion, or because of the Courier intrigue (which is my decision while playing New Vegas). Either from the sources in the game, or fallout wiki page we know that war weakened both sides, with the favor for the New California Republic. After events shown in the Fallout: New Vegas, we ended up in the situation where NCR involved in the war with the Caesars Legion suffers even more.

Let's start the think tank - what BoS in that circumstances can do?
 
A the time of New Vegas, they're probably sitting in their bunkers because of those quotes:

"From time to time, the NCR has assaulted Brotherhood bunkers. In four of the six incidents I know of, the bunkers self-destructed. I surmise it's standard practice for the Brotherhood to install a self-destruct system. It's consistent with their uncompromising nature. You might use that against them. Or kill them another way, it's up to you. Return when it's done."
(Robert House's dialogue)
Hanlon: "The colonel is an effective commander - one of the best - but she sharpened her claws on the Vipers and the old Jackals. Did four tours against the Brotherhood, too. She used to be ranger until an injury took her out of action. Happens to a lot of us, unfortunately. She's better at making graves than making friends. Bring in Moore and the earth will be razed. Fields will be salted."
(Hanlon's dialogue)


NCR going back to New California won't help them. Imho, only nukes from Divide can save them.
 
From the NCR/House perspective you are 100% right, but I would say that Operation: Sunburst or blowing the NCR gold reserves proof otherwise. I would assume that they are doing "something" - beside they are good tacticians, locking yourself in the castle is not very smart idea.
 
Operation: Sunburst happened in 2276.
And NCR gold reserves were destroyed probably during first stage of the war.
NCR managed to create flat currency and distribute it over all territory, and then Hub merchants managed to establish bottle caps as currency once again (and
distribute it over entire New California), so a lot of years (i would say, around ~8 if not more) had to pass, to make all those events possible.

At the start of the war BoS had the initiative, (of course because they started the war), had the technological advantage and so on but when NCR reorganised their forces and started doing "tours" against Brotherhood I dout BoS can do more, than sitting in their bunkers and lose one base after another.

beside they are good tacticians, locking yourself in the castle is not very smart idea.
Well, they aren't that smart. Just look at Elijah, BoS genius, who almost sacrificed entire chapter to gain some pretty powerful weapon, but it was mad idea after all.
 
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I don't like to see the world so "black and white". BoS definitely get their ass kicked pretty well back in the days (so do in Mojave), but also NCR tasted their steel. ;)

About Elder Elijah... He was very specific, indeed genius, but in area on science rather than strategic and tactics. Looking on how easily Courier could arm the orbital laser in Helios One (and even use it against the stationing there NCR garrison), gives me idea that the Elijah (and his Scribes) did all the dirty work, but just run out of time. I can imagine how 2500 evaporated NCR troops, could change the tides of the whole situation in Mojave, but of course not in the long run.

Also I see that your perspective on BoS is rather a organization, which pillars are placed mainly on their firepower and technology, which is of course true. I also see them as descendants of the military personnel, who become one of the last bastions of pre-war knowledge about managing military operations. Transferring it to the next generations is something that military is doing everyday, whole the time. I see no reason why the Mariposa personnel would do different.
 
It depends, the BOS is pretty weakened, and couldn't hold their own against the NCR of the legion even if they tried. However there is something that bugs me a lot, that the NCR could defeat the BOS without as much expenditure as they used against the Legion, even though it does seem that the BOS was pretty powerful before their defeat. Couldn't they have struck much bigger blows and continued the war, as they are suited to?
 
Dr Fallout - I share your point here. New California Republic is not current United States, that are capable of managing few advanced military operations at the same time, without even the need of changing to war-time economy. We have seen how tough the fight with the Legion is, how many casualties are there, how many soldiers survive the battles only to become invalid. I remember the "Arms merchant", former NCR soldier, that points out how current state of the army looks like. On the other hand NCR Rangers Chief Hanlon said, that they got the reserves aka "Power Armored Infantry" (the tough meat that would fight well with BoS) back to protect the "Brahmin Barons".

For me, this looks like perspective of serious civil unrest in the country - rather fresh country, created from societies owning their own personalities and identity. Perhaps it was old planned plot, so the world would not advance to much, similar (not much in the scale of course) to "Jihad" in the BattleTech universe, who leaded to the "Dark Ages".
 
Agreed. The NCR seems to be relatively fine with the battle against the BOS, who the series paints as relatively powerful. In fact I'm surprised that the Brotherhood of Fallout 1 (who are the most powerful faction after the Super Mutants and maybe the Hub) couldn't defeat the growing NCR states.
 
Firstly, I don't think that Brotherhood of Steel is just sitting and waiting in their bunkers for the New California Republic to finish them off. I bet that in the fear of growing state like NCR, that resembles very much the old world that leaded to nuclear holocaust, Brotherhood would even more tried to do their missions. The catastrophe in "The Divide", from my point of view was not fault of the Courier, it was the fault of the Republic and their lack of understanding of the pre war technology. On the other hand, current state of the BoS is rather example of series of Pyrrhic victories, and less minor losses, and perhaps change of the tactics from full scale war to guerilla warfare, combined with well spread NCR propaganda. Their defense strategy could also lead to the thinking that they spend their resources on other tasks, that in the long run could give them advantage.

Secondly, I think that the "Bull" is strong because of the federated societies around the California and their numbers. But for example recruits and their families back in the Hub are not suppose to be so so enthusiastic and happy about casualties and the costs of the war. Even more, I can't see the picture of former Vault City citizens that just agree with the current situation. While in Fallout: New Vegas we can hear that VC become more like "pacifist", it would be surprise if they could planning secretly secession. After all, the Vault City community is older than the NCR.
 
Firstly, I don't think that Brotherhood of Steel is just sitting and waiting in their bunkers for the New California Republic to finish them off. I bet that in the fear of growing state like NCR, that resembles very much the old world that leaded to nuclear holocaust, Brotherhood would even more tried to do their missions. The catastrophe in "The Divide", from my point of view was not fault of the Courier, it was the fault of the Republic and their lack of understanding of the pre war technology. On the other hand, current state of the BoS is rather example of series of Pyrrhic victories, and less minor losses, and perhaps change of the tactics from full scale war to guerilla warfare, combined with well spread NCR propaganda. Their defense strategy could also lead to the thinking that they spend their resources on other tasks, that in the long run could give them advantage.

Secondly, I think that the "Bull" is strong because of the federated societies around the California and their numbers. But for example recruits and their families back in the Hub are not suppose to be so so enthusiastic and happy about casualties and the costs of the war. Even more, I can't see the picture of former Vault City citizens that just agree with the current situation. While in Fallout: New Vegas we can hear that VC become more like "pacifist", it would be surprise if they could planning secretly secession. After all, the Vault City community is older than the NCR.
totally agree. i already post in another thread about my hope to see a civil war/revolution in the Core region
 
Are west coast BoS even made for war?
How do they replenish ranks after even a single battle, wait years on end for lone wandering exceptions?
Are there any estimates at how many they are during the events of FO1?

Also, BoS only advantage is tech. Even if they suddenly started recruiting like mad, their access to population pools is limited, while NCR swims in people, and can enforce draft as well as scavenge and hoard the same tech BoS does
 
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The Brotherhood is basically finished. Even if the NCR loses the Mojave - and that is often the outcome when I play New Vegas - there is no guarantee that the Mojave Chapter survives. Literally every faction wants them destroyed; even Yes Man would prefer you take them out. In my opinion, it would be a strange Courier indeed who would allow the BoS to live and also be opposed to NCR (or Legion) hegemony.

Even if they do manage to survive, I doubt they have the vision or the initiative to take control; they will likely dwindle into irrelevance, or be destroyed by whoever does win Vegas. In the ending slides, all they can think to do is to take control of the highway and shake people down for energy weapons; that means they have become little more than raiders, no better than Vipers with power armor. That shows a distinct lack of imagination and vision, and ultimately that will spell doom for them in the long term.

I mentioned before that I wish there was an option to ally with the Brotherhood as a primary faction in New Vegas, with them marching into the Strip and reclaiming all the shiny bits. But this would require you to completely destroy every other faction, and short of Lonesome Road's nuclear option becoming canon, I just don't see the BoS playing a major role again on the West Coast.

Frankly, the best option for the Brotherhood is to have the Courier negotiate a peace settlement with the NCR. In the short term, this guarantees their immediate survival. In the long term, it forces them to acknowledge and interact with the outside world. In other words, you break their policy of isolation and force them to accept the reality of the post-nuclear world, instead of hiding away in a fantasy world (in this sense, the BoS are basically a bunch of basement dwelling losers, who rather than growing up and getting involved in the world, would rather stay underground and just LARP as knight errants of the realm. No wonder they are always the heroes of the Bethesda titles in the franchise...).

I'd like to think that in the event of an NCR victory, the Brotherhood becomes incorporated into the Republic as an experimental division of the military, focused on research and development and special ops - kind of like the "good" ending for the Brotherhood at the end of Fallout 1. Out of all the possible developments for the BoS, this one was always the most attractive for me and I think it's unfortunate that they devolved into such a fanatical organization.

Usually though I wind up blowing up their bunker. I tend to agree with House that the organization has outlived its usefulness, and represents a threat to any attempt at rebuilding civilization with anything approaching a pre-war level of technology.
 
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The Brotherhood of Steel downfall is simple and yet... so very badly explained. The Brotherhood begins as a regional powerhouse, able to field armies and act as a military force, and then without any motivation or explanation rolls over to a weak and growing NCR. All the decline later is well explained and makes sense according to the circumstance but this? They virtually allow the NCR to walk all over them without actually testing the NCR's power until it's too late. This giant second to the Master's army just falls down with a touch of the wind blown by a baby, representing the growing NCR. They didn't even regulate the NCR or attempt to enforce their power, spreading their influence further. No! They start the collapse of the BOS without as much as a half hearted attempt to stop it.
 
The Brotherhood of Steel downfall is simple and yet... so very badly explained. The Brotherhood begins as a regional powerhouse, able to field armies and act as a military force, and then without any motivation or explanation rolls over to a weak and growing NCR. All the decline later is well explained and makes sense according to the circumstance but this? They virtually allow the NCR to walk all over them without actually testing the NCR's power until it's too late. This giant second to the Master's army just falls down with a touch of the wind blown by a baby, representing the growing NCR. They didn't even regulate the NCR or attempt to enforce their power, spreading their influence further. No! They start the collapse of the BOS without as much as a half hearted attempt to stop it.

Initially there isn't much reason for the two to confront each others. Their intention's don't even overlap much, and they both have a common enemy (the mutants)
BoS has no ambitions to expand territory, Shady Sands to begin with doesn't either. NCR later on is in reality "just" formalization of alliances and cooperation between other communities, why should this provoke the BoS?
Maybe they should have foreseen it, but then again, they shoulda a buncha things, like maybe not make this epic underground bunker, and be like guardians of power-tech, and be so weird and isolated and shave their scribes heads for no reason, etc.
In the end, they helped to destroy the mutant threat, but failed to realize the growing risk in an initially friendly community expanding its power.
(Remember also the little mini-bunkers in FO2, one inside Shady Sands itself. They seem to have been peacefully incorporated, for then to move (parts of?) their (miniscule) population out of NCR territory)
 
The Brotherhood of Steel downfall is simple and yet... so very badly explained. The Brotherhood begins as a regional powerhouse, able to field armies and act as a military force, and then without any motivation or explanation rolls over to a weak and growing NCR. All the decline later is well explained and makes sense according to the circumstance but this? They virtually allow the NCR to walk all over them without actually testing the NCR's power until it's too late. This giant second to the Master's army just falls down with a touch of the wind blown by a baby, representing the growing NCR. They didn't even regulate the NCR or attempt to enforce their power, spreading their influence further. No! They start the collapse of the BOS without as much as a half hearted attempt to stop it.

Initially there isn't much reason for the two to confront each others. Their intention's don't even overlap much, and they both have a common enemy (the mutants)
BoS has no ambitions to expand territory, Shady Sands to begin with doesn't either. NCR later on is in reality "just" formalization of alliances and cooperation between other communities, why should this provoke the BoS?
Maybe they should have foreseen it, but then again, they shoulda a buncha things, like maybe not make this epic underground bunker, and be like guardians of power-tech, and be so weird and isolated and shave their scribes heads for no reason, etc.
In the end, they helped to destroy the mutant threat, but failed to realize the growing risk in an initially friendly community expanding its power.
(Remember also the little mini-bunkers in FO2, one inside Shady Sands itself. They seem to have been peacefully incorporated, for then to move (parts of?) their (miniscule) population out of NCR territory)

True, but we know the Brotherhood is proud, which leads to stupidity. Didn't that at least have some effect? Nup, they utterly collapsed to NCR for no apparent reason.
 
The Brotherhood is basically finished. Even if the NCR loses the Mojave - and that is often the outcome when I play New Vegas - there is no guarantee that the Mojave Chapter survives. Literally every faction wants them destroyed; even Yes Man would prefer you take them out. In my opinion, it would be a strange Courier indeed who would allow the BoS to live and also be opposed to NCR (or Legion) hegemony.

Even if they do manage to survive, I doubt they have the vision or the initiative to take control; they will likely dwindle into irrelevance, or be destroyed by whoever does win Vegas. In the ending slides, all they can think to do is to take control of the highway and shake people down for energy weapons; that means they have become little more than raiders, no better than Vipers with power armor. That shows a distinct lack of imagination and vision, and ultimately that will spell doom for them in the long term.

I mentioned before that I wish there was an option to ally with the Brotherhood as a primary faction in New Vegas, with them marching into the Strip and reclaiming all the shiny bits. But this would require you to completely destroy every other faction, and short of Lonesome Road's nuclear option becoming canon, I just don't see the BoS playing a major role again on the West Coast.

Frankly, the best option for the Brotherhood is to have the Courier negotiate a peace settlement with the NCR. In the short term, this guarantees their immediate survival. In the long term, it forces them to acknowledge and interact with the outside world. In other words, you break their policy of isolation and force them to accept the reality of the post-nuclear world, instead of hiding away in a fantasy world (in this sense, the BoS are basically a bunch of basement dwelling losers, who rather than growing up and getting involved in the world, would rather stay underground and just LARP as knight errants of the realm. No wonder they are always the heroes of the Bethesda titles in the franchise...).

I'd like to think that in the event of an NCR victory, the Brotherhood becomes incorporated into the Republic as an experimental division of the military, focused on research and development and special ops - kind of like the "good" ending for the Brotherhood at the end of Fallout 1. Out of all the possible developments for the BoS, this one was always the most attractive for me and I think it's unfortunate that they devolved into such a fanatical organization.

Usually though I wind up blowing up their bunker. I tend to agree with House that the organization has outlived its usefulness, and represents a threat to any attempt at rebuilding civilization with anything approaching a pre-war level of technology.

Assuming that NCR expand in the same manner as it is, I can agree, BoS is on the lose side and will definitely fail. The thing is, I can't see it that way. Every single faction as we know got their pros ans cons, for example, the reason why the Vault City did not expand was they limited source of power, which was the Vault generator. We already know that New California Republic is in bad shape, because:

- Upcoming food crisis,
- Long years of war with Brotherhood of Steel, and later with the Legion,
- Economic crisis leaded by the BoS assault on the gold reserves (which forced the NCR to set the currency on the water once again),
- Thousands of casualties (even more wounded in the battle and disabled later on),
- And the final, most fatal thing - the cost of managing operations in the Mojave desert,

Those are not trivial things, this are greatest problem that Republic will need to face, tougher than fighting with the Legion, BoS and all California riders at once. From my perspective, power of the NCR is rather snowball effect, achieved from uniting the wastelands communities. It's definitely prove that rebuilding civilization is possible. I also got the filling, that NCR forget about their foundations. We can see that the interest of the "big and wealthy" is above the interests of the communities that are within the NCR. That is even greater problem - the civil unrest.

Don't get me wrong, maybe I look like the hater, but I really like the New California Republic, I enjoy playing Fallout 2 and Fallout: New Vegas while siding with them. The thing is that I just can't see the NCR in their current form. It would be also interesting to see civil war in the California, leaded by for example Vault City or the Hub (i assume that San Francisco is nuked down by the Enclave as a part of the Van Buren).

The last thing that I think off, is that after the event of the Fallout: New Vegas, New California Republic is in the desperate need of peace. Here I would rather assume (if the Brotherhood hepled down in the battle of Hoover Dam), some kind of ceasefire treatyis possible. Both sides are weaken, leading to rise of criminals and group of raiders in California.
 
The Brotherhood of Steel downfall is simple and yet... so very badly explained. The Brotherhood begins as a regional powerhouse, able to field armies and act as a military force, and then without any motivation or explanation rolls over to a weak and growing NCR. All the decline later is well explained and makes sense according to the circumstance but this? They virtually allow the NCR to walk all over them without actually testing the NCR's power until it's too late. This giant second to the Master's army just falls down with a touch of the wind blown by a baby, representing the growing NCR. They didn't even regulate the NCR or attempt to enforce their power, spreading their influence further. No! They start the collapse of the BOS without as much as a half hearted attempt to stop it.

Initially there isn't much reason for the two to confront each others. Their intention's don't even overlap much, and they both have a common enemy (the mutants)
BoS has no ambitions to expand territory, Shady Sands to begin with doesn't either. NCR later on is in reality "just" formalization of alliances and cooperation between other communities, why should this provoke the BoS?
Maybe they should have foreseen it, but then again, they shoulda a buncha things, like maybe not make this epic underground bunker, and be like guardians of power-tech, and be so weird and isolated and shave their scribes heads for no reason, etc.
In the end, they helped to destroy the mutant threat, but failed to realize the growing risk in an initially friendly community expanding its power.
(Remember also the little mini-bunkers in FO2, one inside Shady Sands itself. They seem to have been peacefully incorporated, for then to move (parts of?) their (miniscule) population out of NCR territory)

True, but we know the Brotherhood is proud, which leads to stupidity. Didn't that at least have some effect? Nup, they utterly collapsed to NCR for no apparent reason.

No reason? At all? Is that in writing? I know I haven't been all into the canonic information, but aren't BoS and NCR at armed conflict by Van Buren? So, the way I experience it is - before FO2 BoS is peacefully incorporated into NCR, where they keep their isolationalist traditions, and function more like a big, secretive cult, slowly dwindling, cus why not? At this time, the BoS does not expand, they don't do warfare - again, why should they really worry about the survival of their doomed cult?
At a later stage it seems as if this "incorporation" was reversed, and the two are at open war against each others. Maybe it's the pride you mention. Even then, they are overrun, and understandably so: BoS has power armors, but not much else. NCR has power armors and an "endless" supply of troops.
 
Side question- who states, or where is it stated, in-game that the BOS destroyed NCR's gold reserves? I never came across that in any play through, and the wiki mention that I found doesn't give a reference.
 
Agreed. The NCR seems to be relatively fine with the battle against the BOS, who the series paints as relatively powerful. In fact I'm surprised that the Brotherhood of Fallout 1 (who are the most powerful faction after the Super Mutants and maybe the Hub) couldn't defeat the growing NCR states.
BoS from Fo1 could wipe out entire Hub (or even more, ALL factions from New California) without any problem.
Look: BoS Elders not deciding to attack Water Merchants after they tried to rob them.

Don't get me wrong, maybe I look like the hater, but I really like the New California Republic, I enjoy playing Fallout 2 and Fallout: New Vegas while siding with them. The thing is that I just can't see the NCR in their current form. It would be also interesting to see civil war in the California, leaded by for example Vault City or the Hub (i assume that San Francisco is nuked down by the Enclave as a part of the Van Buren).
Man! I have same idea going around my head for months, as a only good solution for New California and making it interesting region once agian.
Ulysses and Courier nuking Shady Sands and all roads headings to Vegas/borders of NCR-Vegas,
then VC creating Northern California (with Modoc/New Arroyo/Redding etc), while Hub creating Southern One (with Dayglw, Junktown, Boneyard etc)
Then New Reno becoming city-state once again, getting all tourists from Vegas because it's inaccessible
+ 3 rogue NCR Armies in New California, each lead by other man.
One from Navaro
Second which was fighting with BoS around Lost Hills
Third, which fled from Mojave.
ofc SF being nuked by Enclave stuff from Navarro before it was sacked by NCR/BoS
 
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