I don't get San Francisco

[Tiny Tim]

I've beat the game twice, and both times that city was a bit of a turn off for me. It is possible though that i've never explored its lore, so i would like anwers to my questions even if they come out as critisism.


1. Why is everyone in the city so advanced technologically ? These people are selling tesla power armors and gauss riffles in their stores, when the people of new reno for example don't even know what a power armor looks like.

2. What's the deal with the hubologists and their fight with the shi? I couldn't find enough info on the fallout wiki and neither on the game itself though i've never joined the hubbologists. I would really like to know more about them. And again why are they so advanced? These guys make the brotherhood look silly and now that i mention it

3. Shouldn't the brotherhood have a problem with the hubologists and with guys that are selling power armors and energy weapons to any tribal with money?

4.Since the residents of San Fransisco apparently are so technologically advanced, why aren't they major players in fallout 2 politics? Vault City and NCR both are creating small empires and even though they're written as advanced places, it all falls apart when the player reaches SF. Is SF isolated? Do other cities ignore its existence? Again, it is not clear to me.

 

[Tiny Tim]

also, kind of off topic but i've just remembered: why does the brotherhood believe that the chosen one will stop the enclave? I'm talking about this scene




It probably deserves a thread of its own but why does the brotherhood believe in prophecies and where did they hear such prophecy ? I'm certain i've missed the explanation for this.

 

[naossano]

Bullet points to save time.

- Also thought San Francisco as underwhelming. Not enough quests or content.
- Found the BOS totally silly in Fo2. Not only prophecy, but knowing the chosen one beforehand. Then, they don't wear power armor and their bunkers and mostly empty. Why bother with bunker if they are useless?
- The BOS don't have yet a policy as harsh as FoNV yet. They get more hostile somewhere between Fo2 and FoNV (Van Buren was supposed to dwelve on that, but it wasn't released)
- The BOS operatives you see are far from their homeland, still allied with the NCR, and have a shortage of manpower. They won't waste ressources if they aren't sure of the threat, and won't attack random merchants.
- About San Francisco, the massive technological edge of pretty much everyone (including the small gangs in random encounter) is largely gameplay related imo. At that point of the game, you most likely have a power armor and almost the best gear available. The game put you around traders and enemies some equipement that can compare with your.
- It has been a while since i last played Fo2, but i think that hubologists and shi have some small explanations for their gear. But no explanations for all the minor factions there.
- I think their isolation is also gameplay related on one hand (would disrupt the balance of the other power play), but also have ingame explanations. They are extremely far (the map is HUGE if you take actually distance, and most people don't have cars or vertibirds. They have to walk) from Vault-City-New-Reno-Shady-Sands, the land between is extremely dangerous to travel (super-mutants, floaters, centaurs, deathclaws), is a desert (people still need water), and the location is also dangerous as hell, with all those technologically advanced gangs. Also, SF on itself is too unstable to have its factions try some power play too far from home, while their own neighbours are trying to kill them. (although, the hubologists are still trying to gain converts at Shady Sands)
- You learn more about the hubologists if you join them, but they are more a less a copy-pasta of the scientology, with a bit of humor. The shi also have their share of secrets, but i wouldn't say they are the best factions of the game.

 

[DarkCorp]

The hubologists were meant to be a joke, making fun of Scientology. The founder of scientology was L. Ron Hubbard. In some ways, and maybe it is just me, they were also making fun of Mormonism a little bit as Mormonism also encourages their members to prepare for mass chaos scenarios. Mormonism also has a bit of survivalism built in as well.

They reason they have the tech is same as before. The religion was rich enough to purchase/build a vault for the high ranking church members. This would be stocked with anything a person may need for the coming apocalypse.

The Shi, which I found funny as well, came from the survivors of a Chinese sub that went AWOL. Granted that people in NV knew about the Chinese as the bad guys, I don't know why more of the Americans do not like them. In old, old, old, old, old, discussions, it was theorized that many either know and don't care with the majority not knowing as education in history has pretty much gone to shit.

Lastly, F2 was WHACKY. Many of the old timers here also agreed as much and many, like me, were also a bit turned off. If I remember correctly, the core team that made the original was fractured as some had left to bigger and better things. This along with the craziness, explains why F2 and the original were so radically different in terms of atmosphere and story.

 

[CT Phipps]

I love San Fransisco.

Great place. I was playing an unarmed Kung Fu Master Elvis ImpersonatorTM and it was the perfect place to practice my combat. I'm kind of annoyed the Scientologists get slaughtered no matter what you do.

That's picking at some low-hanging fruit there.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

San Fran was the odd one out. You'll find that many here agree.

The short answer is that, game wise, San Fran is the penultimate place. It's the crowning jewel of the wastes because it's basically the penultimate arena. That's about it, and because of that, consistency went out the window.

If I could redesign Fallout 2, San Fran would be this hodgepodge of Chinese survivalists - maybe full blown Chinese Communists who landed after the war, barely surviving, and now are the targets of the Enclave, giving them reason to help the player. The NCR could also be harassing them, with maybe even an Enclave outpost at Berkeley. Makes a lot more sense than survivalists, Cultists, and a New Chinese Empire, and it's still this penultimate arena as it's in the cross-hairs of three factions which fit.

 

[Atomkilla]

IIRC San Fran was largely unfinished as it was done near the game's production ending and was just kinda...there. Lots of stuff there just don't make sense. One of the big negatives in F2 for me, after several good-to-fantastic settlements.

Anyway, take it all with a grain of salt. The basic idea of remnants from Chinese soldiers forming a settlement is pretty good, but the execution is horribly lacking in any logical consistency, not to mention thematic consistency, but that's another, far larger problem within F2.

 

[Hassknecht]

I love San Fransisco.

My level of surprise is exactly zero, given your widely known fondness for everything bad in a video game.
Seriously though, Frisco was kinda underwhelming. I think the technological advantage comes from the Shi, who managed to keep up a higher level of technology with the help of their submarine computer, helped by their placement in a large city as opposed to Vault City, which has a similar advantage in terms of computer power, but is situated in the arse end of nowhere. It's mostly rationalisation for the obvious gameplay reasons, but still, suspension of disbelief is not stressed too much. The Hubologists, well, yeah. Fallout 2 did a lot of silly things (all of which @CT Phipps absolutely loves because I suspect silliness in video games is his fetish), and the Hubologists are just another offender. The Scientology parody would have worked better if they were just a small faction and not that big in Frisco.
On the other hand, I guess Dianetics and all the Scientology bullshit does work on feeble minds, and no mind is more feeble than after a cataclysmic societal collapse... If there is a place and time where Scientology would get really powerful, it would be after the apocalypse.

 

[R.Graves]

. Why is everyone in the city so advanced technologically ?

because they're Japanese? /s

Shouldn't the brotherhood have a problem with the hubologists and with guys that are selling power armors and energy weapons to any tribal with money?

I think the best answer would be that they're far more concerned about the enclave. the game never uses this excuse but eh... I think its a decent enough one for headcanon.

 

[naossano]

I prefer the shis to be there as a new culture of chinese ascent, but fully integrated in the american land and not considering themselves as chinese. The war happened 200 years before. Everyone involved in those war are dead or they became ghouls and had other concerns. Their children and their children's children lived their own lives without having to be bothered to continue a war that started long ago and which they probably have no deep knowledge. It happened, but it is a distant past.

It is way better that Bethesda chinese ghoul spies that still think they are at war 200 years after the bombs fell and still haven't learn a bit of english. And they call themselves spies...

The war ended with the nuclear winter.

 

[CT Phipps]

My level of surprise is exactly zero, given your widely known fondness for everything bad in a video game.

Seriously though, Frisco was kinda underwhelming. I think the technological advantage comes from the Shi, who managed to keep up a higher level of technology with the help of their submarine computer, helped by their placement in a large city as opposed to Vault City, which has a similar advantage in terms of computer power, but is situated in the arse end of nowhere. It's mostly rationalisation for the obvious gameplay reasons, but still, suspension of disbelief is not stressed too much. The Hubologists, well, yeah. Fallout 2 did a lot of silly things (all of which @CT Phipps absolutely loves because I suspect silliness in video games is his fetish), and the Hubologists are just another offender. The Scientology parody would have worked better if they were just a small faction and not that big in Frisco.

On the other hand, I guess Dianetics and all the Scientology bullshit does work on feeble minds, and no mind is more feeble than after a cataclysmic societal collapse... If there is a place and time where Scientology would get really powerful, it would be after the apocalypse.

I think San Fransisco was part of a larger effort by Fallout 2 to show the Old World was behind left behind and humanity was recovering to the point it no longer could be classified as a post-apocalypse society so much as a post-post apocalypse society. The Shi were meant to demonstrate that even a bunch of ex-communist Chinese colonists had maanged to integrate themselves into the rest of the world. The fact they had nothing left of their original Maoist culture was meant to reflect that. Hell, they even have an Emperor.

The Shi talk about things like radiation absorbing plants and other ways to repair the world which is meant to be a 'signal' so to speak that the days of the Wild West California are coming to an end and the world is about to heal. It's kind of an excellent story point that the player characters have found a "Emerald City" where everything is bold, bright, and beautiful. It fits, in many ways, with my belief that Fallout 2 is kind of the "last" Fallout game in terms of timeline because after it, there really isn't going to be much of a wasteland left.

There isn't actually that much to do in San Fransisco, of course, because it's a settled and utopian society with the exception of the freighter people. That's something which may bother Players who are looking for sidequests but the Shi really don't NEED anything because they're capable of handling themselves. In terms of fantasy, they're the elves, and I suspect that kind of irritates certain gamers.

Honestly, the Hubologists having a big role in the game is something I like. I also like the fact they've managed to rise up as a powerful force in the post-wasteland society. They are, after all, a 1950s UFO science-fiction cult even if you divorce them from their church's criminal activity. I think it would have been cool to have them portrayed as a legitimate enterprise for the PCs to become involved in and rise as a power in the wasteland but the game was more interested in turning them into a bad joke. Certainly, I do like the idea of them being the most powerful religion in the post-wasteland society, though. It's quirky and interesting.

I totally would have enjoyed the opportunity to take over the wasteland with the Hubologists or colonize the Enclave's moonbase or whatever they planned to do with their shuttle.

I also like the BOS have made contact with the Shi and are actually having a peaceful friendly relationship. Everyone wants the BoS to be a bunch of tech-raiding psychopath rednecks but that wasn't where they were going in Fallout 2. Instead, things were looking better for them. Part of the reason why they started to drift to being the default protagonists.

I think the best answer would be that they're far more concerned about the enclave. the game never uses this excuse but eh... I think its a decent enough one for headcanon.

I kind of like the BOS not being idiots like the New Vegas ones. The BoS are meeting factions every bit as advanced as themselves, so of course they're cautious.

 

[naossano]

That's my idea of POST-Apocalyptic. The apocalypse is way behind and what we see is the new world.

If it is about people still struggling with the aftermath of the singular event, i would consider the setting as apocalyptic as they are still coping with the apocalypse itself.

Classic Fallout were mostly about the world after. The apocalypse is only used to destroy the old world and make the new world possible. But those games were about that new world and its new societies.

Fallout 3, on the other hand, seems more apocalyptic to me. There is so much fetish about the pre-war world and the great war, and so few effort put into rebuilding or starting anew that it feel like everyone is still coping with the event. It also feels like it happened five minutes ago, not 200 years.

 

[Zerginfestor]

That's my idea of POST-Apocalyptic. The apocalypse is way behind and what we see is the new world.

If it is about people still struggling with the aftermath of the singular event, i would consider the setting as apocalyptic as they are still coping with the apocalypse itself.

Classic Fallout were mostly about the world after. The apocalypse is only used to destroy the old world and make the new world possible. But those games were about that new world and its new societies.

Fallout 3, on the other hand, seems more apocalyptic to me. There is so much fetish about the pre-war world and the great war, and so few effort put into rebuilding or starting anew that it feel like everyone is still coping with the event. It also feels like it happened five minutes ago, not 200 years.

No joke, you'd think in 200 years the place would be absolutely clean of rubbish and rubble, what with people clearing them out and reusing the rubble as walls/houses/barricades and such. People making mud houses like Shady Sands, or breaking down scrap metal to build shanty towns like Junktown, but instead we just see pretty poorly made areas. Arefu was absolutely terrible, Big Town and Little Lamplight were nonsensical, Rivet City and Megaton were overall 'meh' and even then, Megaton situated on a fucking bomb was beyond idiotic.

Those are the only settlements I can actually remember, with the rest being poorly thought out spots.

 

[CT Phipps]

No joke, you'd think in 200 years the place would be absolutely clean of rubbish and rubble, what with people clearing them out and reusing the rubble as walls/houses/barricades and such. People making mud houses like Shady Sands, or breaking down scrap metal to build shanty towns like Junktown, but instead we just see pretty poorly made areas. Arefu was absolutely terrible, Big Town and Little Lamplight were nonsensical, Rivet City and Megaton were overall 'meh' and even then, Megaton situated on a fucking bomb was beyond idiotic.

Those are the only settlements I can actually remember, with the rest being poorly thought out spots.

Megaton notably:

1. Is a town made out of the ruins of an American bomber
2. Is populated by radiation cultists

Besides, only idiots think it's just going to go off by itself. Nuclear weapons don't work that way even in Fallout.

 

[naossano]

Sure it won't explode on itself. It will require the mighty hands of pretty much anyone that want it to explode... which is pretty much what happen 50% of the Fallout 3 playthrough and i am sure i am underestimating the ratio of the playerbase that just want things go Kaboom.

 

[CerberusGate]

San Francisco felt more like a typical place in a game rather than an actual feasible place in a world based on the lore. It's the kind of place a dev would include as part of a formula in making levels rather than adding to the lore (though the Shi are a decent idea though I'd prefer if they were not as technologically advanced).

Mechanically, San Fran seems to be a place to provide late-game gear for high level players and to serve as a final roadblock to the game's final level. Lore-wise, it does not add much save for the Shi (and I think they could be improved from what's in the game).

Megaton notably:

1. Is a town made out of the ruins of an American bomber
2. Is populated by radiation cultists

Besides, only idiots think it's just going to go off by itself. Nuclear weapons don't work that way even in Fallout.

Based on how Burke was able to get a device to re-arm the nuke and the number of military installations in DC, I'm more surprised Megaton hasn't been destroyed by a hapless cultist who was smart enough to grab said device and wanted to spread nuclear love (or whatever they spout).

 

[CT Phipps]

San Francisco felt more like a typical place in a game rather than an actual feasible place in a world based on the lore. It's the kind of place a dev would include as part of a formula in making levels rather than adding to the lore (though the Shi are a decent idea though I'd prefer if they were not as technologically advanced).

Mechanically, San Fran seems to be a place to provide late-game gear for high level players and to serve as a final roadblock to the game's final level. Lore-wise, it does not add much save for the Shi (and I think they could be improved from what's in the game).

Who cares about the Shi versus the Hubologists? I was really hoping they'd be the primary religion of NCR by New Vegas and control much of the region with the power of their superior technology.

Based on how Burke was able to get a device to re-arm the nuke and the number of military installations in DC, I'm more surprised Megaton hasn't been destroyed by a hapless cultist who was smart enough to grab said device and wanted to spread nuclear love (or whatever they spout).

To be fair, the Children of Atom weren't actually evil back then. That was Fallout 4 and even then, only because of their crazy new leader.

 

[R.Graves]

Who cares about the Shi versus the Hubologists? I was really hoping they'd be the primary religion of NCR by New Vegas and control much of the region with the power of their superior technology.

I don't like that idea. at all. especially considering that religion canonically died out.

 

[CT Phipps]

I don't like that idea. at all. especially considering that religion canonically died out.

Bah, only the San Fransisco chapter.

 

[rockitten]

Sure it won't explode on itself. It will require the mighty hands of pretty much anyone that want it to explode... which is pretty much what happen 50% of the Fallout 3 playthrough and i am sure i am underestimating the ratio of the playerbase that just want things go Kaboom.

I can't let that thing goes kaboom as that will stir-up another nonsense in FO3: How can Moria survive at all when a nuclear bomb went-off literally at her doorstep?