Why choices and consequences have become an illusion

Dragula

Stormtrooper oTO
Orderite
Alternative title: Why choices and consequences became RGB

tl;dr It has become inefficient due to the increasing amount ADHD, media consumption and sheer size of the gaming industry.

Choices and consequences, when done right tailors the game around the player, like a choose your own adventure with more depth. When done bad it becomes "Do you want the Red, Green or Blue ending?", a fake sense of choice. No matter what choices you make, you end up with the same scene, just with different voice lines. The latter has become the bransch standard, do you want to create one amazing scene that all players will see, or do you want to create 4-5 good ones that only some players will see?

The majority of the players will not replay the game more than once, some will replay it twice, and very few will replay it more than that. I can count on one hand the amount of games I have played more than twice: Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2 and Arcanum and Disco Elysium (We will get there later). Because thos worlds made me want to visit them again and see what I missed. I never got that feeling from for example Mass Effect. I have replayed the first and second game twice, and the third only once. I tried to revisit it, but I got bored about halfway through and never finished that playthrough. Maybe I will give it a new chance with the re-release of the trilogy.

Either way, the point I am trying to make is that it is hard to justify the expense of creating so many scenes
that so few players will ever see. Just like with a movie you want everyone to see the cool shit you created.

Now, which games does a good compromise? Witcher 3 for example, allowed the majority of the players to see the same cool scenes, but made the changes on the side (Jen or Triss) and som additional voice lines to make it seem like you made a choice. Different endings. But the story up until that point will be mostly the same every playthrough.

Disco Elysium, however, one of the best games in the last, decade? Takes a different route. The game is shorter. Much shorter than your EPIC BIOWARE ACTION RPG WITH 40 HOURS OF FETCH QUESTS, but with so much more substance. Every playthrough feels different, you constantly discover new things, new solutions, new designer drugs. It's a beautiful game, and it is the sort of game that you think, would you have bothered to replay it if it was 50 hours? Discover all those hidden mechanics, seen all the different scenes? Some of you, probably most of you would probably not bother. So, maybe this type of reactivity and choose your own adventure style of games are much better of shorter.

The games you remember, the long story driven RPGs where your choices in the story mattered where from an era where there were less games, especially less of this type of game. The golden era of 90s RPGs has gone the same way 80s action hero movies went, they changed, people wanted other things. We still get nods to it from time to time.

So what is the point I am trying to make here? Honestly, I am not sure. But I do know that we cannot only blame poor writing forever. Yes, Bethesda has shitty writing, but their worlds seem to appeal to a lot of people, and that is what drives them to come back, not the choices and consequences, but the world. Just like with me and Planescape Torment or Arcanum.
 
I've had a problem with games that never fucking end for years now. With RPG's especially no matter how good they are the moment I'm done with one I go "do I want to replay it to test something else" and the answer is nearly always a strong hard fuck no. Age Of Decadence is one of the few RPG's where I actually want to replay it the moment I finish it because it too is so short.

I think the problem is that the devs/pubs think very little of the gaming audience and thinks that if a game is short then instead of replaying the game 4 times for 10 hours a playthrough they need to hook us for 1 playthrough for 80 hours. 60 of which is most likely some pointless busywork bullshit.

RPG's are one of the few genres that benefit greatly from a shorter runtime as it means players won't feel so fatigued by it that they'll crave more and go for another round right away. But the people in charge, be it developers or publishers, be it loved studios or hated ones; They've all lost sight of that a long time ago.
 
Definitely agree that RPGs with choice and consequences should be shorter than the average RPG. Makes the choices have an actual long reaching effect and makes replaying the game to see the other choices much less tedious.

The only very long RPG i played recently that i loved was Dragon Quest 11. Because the combat is so satisfying and the entire game revolves around it, it just made me want to play the game for nearly 120 hours. But i sure as shit ain't playing it for a long while, probably years before i replay it.

Yes, Bethesda has shitty writing, but their worlds seem to appeal to a lot of people, and that is what drives them to come back, not the choices and consequences, but the world.
Yeah, but i think the modding scene has an higher degree of responsibility when it comes to Bethesda fans replaying their games.
 
I've had a problem with games that never fucking end for years now. With RPG's especially no matter how good they are the moment I'm done with one I go "do I want to replay it to test something else" and the answer is nearly always a strong hard fuck no. Age Of Decadence is one of the few RPG's where I actually want to replay it the moment I finish it because it too is so short.

I think the problem is that the devs/pubs think very little of the gaming audience and thinks that if a game is short then instead of replaying the game 4 times for 10 hours a playthrough they need to hook us for 1 playthrough for 80 hours. 60 of which is most likely some pointless busywork bullshit.

RPG's are one of the few genres that benefit greatly from a shorter runtime as it means players won't feel so fatigued by it that they'll crave more and go for another round right away. But the people in charge, be it developers or publishers, be it loved studios or hated ones; They've all lost sight of that a long time ago.
Yeah I hear you. You become exhausted from the amount of work it takes to finish that AAA RPG. Witcher 3 is a fine example of this, loved that game, have yet to finish it a second time.

Yeah, but i think the modding scene has an higher degree of responsibility when it comes to Bethesda fans replaying their games.
This is a fair point, but most of the mods still adhere to the world. The total conversions are not the most popular ones. People just want more stuff inside the world Bethesda created.
 
Witcher 3 is a fine example of this, loved that game, have yet to finish it a second time.
Oh I barely finished Witcher 3 the first time around. Once I got to Skellige I was done and I forced myself to push through the main story only to get to the end. Never did play the expansion packs because of that. But I dunno, I have general gaming fatigue with all games. There comes a point where every game outstays its welcome and I just start to get bored with them. I over time figure out how the games mechanics work, how the AI work, how the pathing works, how things connect and it doesn't feel like most games have anything new to throw at me after, let's say 30 hours, so at that point I'm just bored because it all just feels like busywork.
 
Game budgets are too large, design goals are too bloated and development times too short for all of that.
 
Game budgets are too large, design goals are too bloated and development times too short for all of that.
Wouldn't be feasible either way with a 60 hour narrative that shapes after your playstyle because very few would bother replaying it and seeing the rest of the content.
 
Wouldn't be feasible either way with a 60 hour narrative that shapes after your playstyle because very few would bother replaying it and seeing the rest of the content.
Yup, even if it had a shitload of Choice N Consequence, reactivity to your choices, character builds that truly play differently from one another: 60 hours is a long fucking time, man. I got a shitload of other games I want to get to, films I wanna watch, books and comics I wanna read and youtube videos I wanna watch. If I've invested 60 hours into something then fatigue will have set in and I want to move on. No matter how brilliant of an RPG it is 60 hours is just too damn long. Because if I really want to see what would have happened if I chose B instead of A at a quest 30 hours into the game then guess what, I'll have to play through 30 hours just to get to that point.

That's why I was always hesitant to replay Mass Effect series.

Maybe it's different for people who don't have as much on their backlog as I do, who perhaps are younger and so don't have as big of a catalogue of stuff they want to get back to and experience again, who maybe can't afford as a many games and so they have to make do with a game a month. But how big is that market exactly?
 
Ideally the story should be almost like Swiss Cheese, where a specific PC build could only [ever] reveal a sliver of the whole; one path among many possible ones. Preferably paths that do not all pass through the same content. So yes, it could be 20 hours out of 60+.

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*This means that all PCs should miss at least some of the content areas entirely; due to incompatible skills, aptitude, and/or ethics.

I myself prefer long campaigns.
 
But that will never happen, why would I write a book where people only read one third of the pages? With the massive investments game studios are making it is just unfeasible.
 
Does it matter? If the amount of work required for 60 hours of playtime can translate into three wildly different playthroughs of 20 hours each, does it matter if some people don't see all of it? As long as the game sells well, it doesn't.

I mean, if you want to compare this to something very similar, a large chunk of people that bought a game didn't finished or barely played it. This happens to the majority of games. You can easily tell this by just looking at the achievements percentage, how the early game achievements have the highest percentage and then it gradually gets lower and lower, to the point the people that actually beat the game are a fraction compared to the amount of people that did the first handful of hours of achievements.

In fact, i have bought games that i haven't even played, but it doesn't matter if i didn't because the devs got the money regardless.
 
Oh I understood it as creating 60 hours of playthrough. No if they are 20 hours it should probably be fine, like Disco Elysium.
 
Definitely agree shorter games tend to do choice and consequence better.
Honestly, I am not sure. But I do know that we cannot only blame poor writing forever.
You're right about that though. The Mass Effect team even proved that with their binary choice, it was largely a waste for their audience to make the differences matter much. It was some absurd amount of recorded players always being the "good" version (I've never played them so I don't know what that path was). I think it was nearly 90%?
But it definitely goes further than just writing. A game with tons of choice can still have shit writing. It's more about design and scope in my opinion. Do you have the time and resources to make choices matter? Should choices even matter in your game? Is that a selling point? Ken Levine says, "No" fairly obnoxiously.
 
Indeed. :whatever:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Choose_Your_Own_Adventure_books

Of course it was given as an example of written books where the reader only sees a fraction of the book's full [branched] content.

Actually these are quite fun; I've read more than one that had dice combat... rolls could get your character killed, or decide a choice. Even the official D&D red-box shipped with a version of one in the player's hand book; a solo adventure.

Yes the books were great; try one before knocking them so.
 
Choose your own adventure types of books are exactly what I have been talking about though, shorter, more intense stories, where the goal is to make it re-playable. Compare that to someone having to re-read the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
 
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