1UP's Fallout 3 Gameplay Video and Interview

[golfmade]

Understood and not interested in semantics since I generally agree (although my first playthrough of F2 was interesting and I won't discuss it in the news post, PM me if you want to discuss).

But I'd like clarification on one point:
The game should not punish players who want a speed run just because a few idiot kids cannot resist the urge to look at gamefaqs.

Maybe I don't understand the context or am thinking off base but, how are players being punished?

 

[pyrock]

In FO1+2 I couldn't resist rushing to the power-armor because it's so damn effective. I like how in FO3 there is a level requirement, it will definitely make the game more of a challenge. You'll have to work your way up instead of rushing then going back and completing all the quests you skipped.

 

[DarkCorp]

Understood and not interested in semantics since I generally agree (although my first playthrough of F2 was interesting and I won't discuss it in the news post, PM me if you want to discuss).

But I'd like clarification on one point:
The game should not punish players who want a speed run just because a few idiot kids cannot resist the urge to look at gamefaqs.

Maybe I don't understand the context or am thinking off base but, how are players being punished?

First off I admit I don't know any of the final details.

However, what it sounds like to me is I play F3 and beat it. Since I know the ins and outs of the game I decided to play a game where I get the power armor early. This way I could maybe do missions and unlock story arcs in a whole different sequence and maybe get some surprises. But no, there is a lock in the game that prevents you from using power armor until you reach a certain point in the game. This effectively quashes my ability to do things a bit differently.

Now these are made up examples of course but they illustrate my meaning,

Lets say there is an escort quest thats just damn hard. With power armor, I could actually take those gunshots and complete the escort mission. Who knows, maybe the fact I saved that one particular npc offers a wole new gameplay experience.

If one has played thorugh the game and knows the ins and outs, why shouldn't they be allowed to get and use power armor right off the bat?

 

[golfmade]

First off I admit I don't know any of the final details.

However, what it sounds like to me is I play F3 and beat it. Since I know the ins and outs of the game I decided to play a game where I get the power armor early. This way I could maybe do missions and unlock story arcs in a whole different sequence and maybe get some surprises. But no, there is a lock in the game that prevents you from using power armor until you reach a certain point in the game. This effectively quashes my ability to do things a bit differently.

Now these are made up examples of course but they illustrate my meaning,

Lets say there is an escort quest thats just damn hard. With power armor, I could actually take those gunshots and complete the escort mission. Who knows, maybe the fact I saved that one particular npc offers a wole new gameplay experience.

If one has played thorugh the game and knows the ins and outs, why shouldn't they be allowed to get and use power armor right off the bat?

Ok I realize where the misunderstanding came from: I assumed you were talking about F2 and that's why I was scratching my head as to what you meant.

As for F3, guess we'll have to wait and see the final details. But yes I agree with you.

 

[Brother None]

However, what it sounds like to me is I play F3 and beat it. Since I know the ins and outs of the game I decided to play a game where I get the power armor early. This way I could maybe do missions and unlock story arcs in a whole different sequence and maybe get some surprises. But no, there is a lock in the game that prevents you from using power armor until you reach a certain point in the game. This effectively quashes my ability to do things a bit differently.

So?

It is hardly a requirement of games to let you play around with the most powerful equipment just because you feel like it. Many of the best cRPGs lock you in when it comes to powerful equipment. Fallout is a free-roaming game and that makes that harder, Fallout 1/2 just completely failed to take it into account.

From what Todd says, it sounds like there are incidental and perhaps logical times when power armor becomes available to the player too early in Fallout 3: perhaps a BoS soldier dies in a battle he's supposed to survive and the player can loot him, maybe the player dumps all skill into lockpick and enters a compound too early.

Then it becomes a zero-sum game, what is worth more: letting powered armor be available to players who are replaying for the minute amount that will add to their experience, or locking off the eventuality of someone's first playthrough being gimped because of powered armor. The third solution would be to redesign the game to avoid incidental gaining of powered armor, like making it non-lootable, but that's a sucky solution.

Both are not very important, but I'd say the negative outbalances the positive.

Hell, even more than that, it makes quite a bit of sense that you'd have to learn to use power armor. So perk? A-ok.

I agree that beth target this presentation to audience who prefer action and violence, but it doesn´t mean that showing one small dialog (lets say 30sec) would result into rejecting the title (f3) by its target group.

Actually, that can be quite jarring for a gameplay demo.

 

[DarkCorp]

In FO1+2 I couldn't resist rushing to the power-armor because it's so damn effective. I like how in FO3 there is a level requirement, it will definitely make the game more of a challenge. You'll have to work your way up instead of rushing then going back and completing all the quests you skipped.

It was very effective but nobody "made" you go get it.

Plus isn't that how a linear game plays out? You start at level 1, enemies and quests are easy at level 1. Then you move to level 2. Enemies and quests are still easy on level 2. So on so forth. You cannot get anything from level six and use it on level 1 to try and influence the games sequence of events differently. Changing the future so to speak.

The greatness of Fallout was after my playthrourh, I realised some builds were good for some situations and others were better for other situations. I then did the same thing except with equipment.

Brother None

From what you mentioned I would agree in a sense. It would make sense that a civvy wouldn't know how to use power armor. However, I still disagree with the fact that it gets locked out and only available on a certain level or only available in the last parts of the game (if this is indeed the case). Maybe you could get the training if you knew where to go and what to do since the gamer has played through before.

I mean why can't I do a certain mission earlier than when I did it last game per say. Afterall isn't that the esence of having open ended gameplay?

PS: Deus Ex offered you the GEP gun or a sniper rifle right off the bat at level one. If one specced appropriately, one could build a repeater rifle in Arcanum pretty much in the beginning of the game. With real time combat turned on the repeating rifle murdered everything in its path. As a mage you get to level 15 (after doing all the quests at the time which is still considered the beginning), you get disintegrate which is an isntant death spell. Its hardly rare that a good amount of rpgs also seem to have a continue + game where one starts off a new game with everything except story crucial items.

So honestly it doesn't sound like its too much to allow the player to play the game a whole new way. In Fallout since I got the power armor early, I had that extra STR bonus. Wow, isntead of putting in points into STR now I can add an additional two points into luck or to charisma or to intelligence to change my playing experience. Allowing the player to explore areas that in their previous playthrough were much too difficult is not a bad thing. If anything, its allows the game maker to add another story arc, add another ending, etc, etc.

 

[Brother None]

I mean why can't I do a certain mission earlier than when I did it last game per say. Afterall isn't that the esence of having open ended gameplay?

I think you're confusing freeroaming gameplay with doing whatever you want. Freeroaming gameplay is not about allowing the player to do whatever he wants, it's about allowing the player to do whatever his character can. Again, big difference.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

Ok, so maybe both Fallouts had some way of getting your hands on Power Armor early on. The thing is, I can't bring myself to see this as a huge design flaw, since it's so damn hard to do - you have to know exactly where to go, who to talk to, what to do, and still get through some pretty hardcore fights. You have to purposefully skip half the game, your character having no knowledge whatsoever of these places or events (which I think goes hand-in-hand with your statement about freeroaming gameplay, BN) and force it happening. To some extent, maybe this is just the same as every exploit: a loophole in a logic system. But it is safeguarded in such a way that abusing it seems very unlikely to happen by accident.

I guess we'd have to see how exactly these people got their hands on FO3 Power Armor to make a fair comparison: if they just stumbled upon a set early on, I'd have to say that adding this perk is lazy design, trying to make up for bad equipment placement and/or decisions such as making every dead NPC lootable (the opposite of which, I must add, has as much a good rationale as needing training to use PA; if the armor is wrecked from the gunfight it might be worthless by the time you're picking it up).

 

[DarkCorp]

Ok, so maybe both Fallouts had some way of getting your hands on Power Armor early on. The thing is, I can't bring myself to see this as a huge design flaw, since it's so damn hard to do - you have to know exactly where to go, who to talk to, what to do, and still get through some pretty hardcore fights. You have to purposefully skip half the game, your character having no knowledge whatsoever of these places or events (which I think goes hand-in-hand with your statement about freeroaming gameplay, BN) and force it happening. To some extent, maybe this is just the same as every exploit: a loophole in a logic system. But it is safeguarded in such a way that abusing it seems very unlikely to happen by accident.

I guess we'd have to see how exactly these people got their hands on FO3 Power Armor to make a fair comparison: if they just stumbled upon a set early on, I'd have to say that adding this perk is lazy design, trying to make up for bad equipment placement and/or decisions such as making every dead NPC lootable (the opposite of which, I must add, has as much a good rationale as needing training to use PA; if the armor is wrecked from the gunfight it might be worthless by the time you're picking it up).

I totally agree and thats what I have been trying to say. There are a lot of games out there where when you loot the guy you just get the weapons or sometimes just money. Rememeber the bodies in the glow? You could loot them but you couldn't pickup the armor. If they do the lockout for the sake of controlling the player then its lazy design.

Also where the hell did most people get the idea that PA is the endall be all. A few gauss rifle rounds will turn you into swiss cheese. Same with pulse rifle or plasma rifle fire. A good burst crit from a gatling gun or laser would quickly split one in half.


Brother None

I think its semantics but whatever. Ofcourse the character is going to do what the player wants the character to do. The player is living in the world through his avatar/player character. If I want to get that plus stats surgery ahead of time because I know where to go or where to get the chip then thats my damned right. There is no reason why it should be locked out, thats just lazy game design to force a player into a linear set of events forced by the player characters lack of equipment or skills.

PS: about that person being gimped because they found the PA. If they are gimped its because they CHOSE to use it. They could just as easily leave it on the body and not use it. Thats the whole point of the thread. Bethesda shouldn't treat its audience like fucking children. If some asshat ruins his experience cause he couldn't control himself from using that PA that showed up because something that wasnt supposed to hapen happened its his fault.

 

[Goral]

I don't understand Brother None either. What's so bad about having possibility to gain PA early? And what's so great about a perk that let's you learn how to use power armor? Assuming that using such armor is a difficult task it's strange to me that a perk can solve the problem unless you can take this perk under certain conditions, i.e. you have enough experience or have scientific skills high enough or sth like that. And if it can be worn early then there shouldn't be any perk to begin with, rather new skill (or it could come within repair or science). I mean, the more you would wear it, the better you could use it, it's natural. What does the perk have to do with this? That's like letting you use turbo plasma rifle after you took a perk that allows you to. But we have armor here, I don't think constructors would make it difficult to wear (in fact PA increased strength) so perk is as needed as a ulcer on an arse.

Heh, ad hominem much?

If you wanted only to show off and add nothing to the topic you should have used old expression in it's full glory:
"I would prefer if you would use more ad rem arguments than ad persona and ad hominem", it would make you look smarter.

 

[nyibelunger]

it reminds me similar situation in F2. You can find sniper rifle quite early (depends on way you explore the map) but it become more powerful after you gain perk sniper which can be gained later in game.
Gist is, that i see nothing wrong on fact that there are some perks you can gain later.

 

[Per]

It would make more sense as a Gecko Skinning free perk, where someone instructs you how to use the armour. That way you could also easily add a level check or a similar catch in dialogue. Having it as a normal level-up perk is harder to justify, though not impossible.

 

[kyle]

And what's so great about a perk that let's you learn how to use power armor?

nothing, imo it sux, as this is effectively a minimum level requirement on PA usage, and that is stupid - there was a suggestion here about making it a learnable perk, which is good idea methinks

It would make more sense as a Gecko Skinning free perk, where someone instructs you how to use the armour.

exactly, that would be pretty neat, i would oppose these level restrictions though (never really understood why wouldnt sheriff in redding give me jobs before certain level, this seemed so artificial)

if something needs to be obtainable only by high level character, place it in a place that is difficult/impossible to reach by lowbie, fixed

 

[Anani Masu]

He only says "you can't get it til later". That's could mean either level wise or story wise. I'd imagine that since it's Power Armor Training you have to be trained by someone and not just select it at level 12 or whatever.

 

[K.C. Cool]

I think a level specific perk for power armor is dumb, it should be executed cleverer than that. Like some one mentioned, it's a lazy design choice. They might as well have "Level 15 required" written on the armor. Sure overhauling everything wouldn't be an option at this point, but it should have been thought of through design.

I also agree with the fact that, in your first play though, you can't just stumble into the armor at the beginning of Fallout 1 and 2, you have to know exactly where to look.

Getting the armor shouldn't be 'wait' based but rather 'effort' based. Having the perk would feel like waiting in line to use the armor. In Fallout, I kept working towards getting the armor until I got it, same with weapons. If the player wants to ignore the rest of the game and focus on getting the armor, then I say go for it. Hell, set up a quest with a bunch of obstacles where later on in the game would be easier. But can you still get it? If you're clever enough, why not?

It would make more sense as a Gecko Skinning free perk, where someone instructs you how to use the amour. That way you could also easily add a level check or a similar catch in dialogue. Having it as a normal level-up perk is harder to justify, though not impossible.

I agree, this would be the best way to accomplish the perk idea. Or perhaps very few books in the wasteland that instruct you on how to use it.

 

[kyle]

He only says "you can't get it til later". That's could mean either level wise or story wise. I'd imagine that since it's Power Armor Training you have to be trained by someone and not just select it at level 12 or whatever.

well, there was no mention about 'free' perks so far so i assume its level based,
also what would stop me from furthering main quest (if its not lvl based) up till 'later' as in speed runs? (afaik this playstyle todd wants to prevent)

also, "Power Armor Training" doesnt mean anything, just like "Intense Training", now that would be strange if sb tought you how to increase basic stat of choice ...

 

[Anani Masu]

He only says "you can't get it til later". That's could mean either level wise or story wise. I'd imagine that since it's Power Armor Training you have to be trained by someone and not just select it at level 12 or whatever.

well, there was no mention about 'free' perks so far so i assume its level based,
also what would stop me from furthering main quest (if its not lvl based) up till 'later' as in speed runs? (afaik this playstyle todd wants to prevent)

also, "Power Armor Training" doesnt mean anything, just like "Intense Training", now that would be strange if sb tought you how to increase basic stat of choice ...

Well you can assume it's level based but it is just that, an assumption. I think there is a context difference between sitting under waterfalls and carrying rocks and someone teaching you something techinical. But mine is just an assumption too.

 

[welsh]

They are going to work out the dialogue in the next three months before the game is released? Oh… yeah, I can see that dialogue is rather an afterthought. “Still polishing up the dialogue?”

Well, if you got super violence and a great VATS system, do you really need to talk to anyone. I mean, a Todd says, “it’s the post-apocalyptic… everyone is dead.” I guess that leaves the rest optional.

Players may be transformed into Mutants “in future games?” = Expect Fallout 4 to look a lot like Fallout 3.

Given the environment, it’s a shame the movement seems limited.

 

[kyle]

id say, its more like educated guess, based on:

what would stop me from furthering main quest (if its not lvl based) up till 'later' as in speed runs? (afaik this playstyle todd wants to prevent)

of course that does not give us certainity that it will be that way, just as we cant be certain that Oblivion 2 will be crap,
we can only be certain that teddy bears are deadly stuff in the wastes now

about training taught or not ... i wont actually defend it that strongly, could be whatever actually ...

I think there is a context difference between sitting under waterfalls and carrying rocks and someone teaching you something techinical.

perhaps there is, just pointing out you cant infer anything from just perk title

Edit:
also, pity they didnt pull sth really fun about travelling (like in arcanum, sb managed to go from town to town without world map travel? )

 

[Anani Masu]

They are going to work out the dialogue in the next three months before the game is released? Oh… yeah, I can see that dialogue is rather an afterthought. “Still polishing up the dialogue?”

Well, if you got super violence and a great VATS system, do you really need to talk to anyone. I mean, a Todd says, “it’s the post-apocalyptic… everyone is dead.” I guess that leaves the rest optional.

Players may be transformed into Mutants “in future games?” = Expect Fallout 4 to look a lot like Fallout 3.

Given the environment, it’s a shame the movement seems limited.

Some of the hands on mentioned minor issues with the lip, eye and body movement. I'd expect that is what they are referring to polishing the dialogue.

The post apocalyptic comment was more about how they can cut down on the number of NPCs without it feeling odd. Oblivion included thousands of NPCs but there were plenty of complaints that cities didn't feel big and bustling enough.

Bethesda has always said they never bought the IP for one game. They have always said they intend to produce more.

And on your last point I'm not sure what you mean? Lack of vehicles?